The Oregon shooting

Politrukk

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LegendaryGamer0 said:
Politrukk said:
I'm sorry to say but I believe this is just a result of the economical, political and societal decline that's been ravaging through the U.S for a while now.

That in combination with your gun laws (meaning : you actually are allowing them) is causing all this.


If you're still one of those kids who bright-eyedly swears true allegiance to the flag and whatnot be my guest, but anyone who does not have pudding for a brain can see what is going on with the U.S

The U.S is quickly becoming a parody of itself.
Well, from what I'm reading, someone with a very sick mind went out and killed people. Be it societal decline or people just being shit.

Anyone can say it's any number of things causing these shootings. Common trait being the person goes in and enjoys being in power for a few minutes, then pops his head.

As for the parody bit, well, Poe's Law is funny that way, isn't it?
I don't know if this was quoted correctly on Imgur so correct me if I'm wrong :

Even Obama has acknowledged now that the U.S has had this weird thing of just accepting these shootings as if they were commonplace, they are not, there is no Western country where this is normal even less so happens on such a regular basis.

Sure it's all very tragic but the country and the media have become dulled to the sensation.

Event take place as follows:
Mass shooting>Mass Outrage at shooter>Mass lauding of whomever might have stood up as a "hero"> Media Outrage>Presidential adress>outrage at presidential adress>daily life returns.

What do you want to call it?
"A shooting a day keeps our democracy in play" ?

This is in no way meant to offend but the common trait all these shootings have is the United States of America being the place where they take place.
 

TechNoFear

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LegendaryGamer0 said:
You use that firearm responsibly and safely, and it being your duty to have a firearm to fight against the ever present threat of tyranny.
What tyranny?

You really think that a country where over 1/3 of the population cannot be bothered to get off the couch to vote will risk their lives to protect democracy?

LegendaryGamer0 said:
Can you please provide a source for that? I can't find anything regarding him owning 13 firearms and having body armor on at the time of the shooting.
"Seven weapons were recovered at the gunman?s home, in addition to the six weapons that were recovered on the campus of Umpqua Community College, Celinez Nunez, of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), told reporters during a Friday morning press briefing. A bulletproof jacket and five extra magazines were also recovered at the scene "

"All 13 weapons were purchased legally by the shooter or a family member in the last three years, "

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/oregon-college-shootings-witnesses-recall-horror-as-obama-calls-for-action

LegendaryGamer0 said:
He abused his right and used it to murder people in cold blood.
Yes, and he was able to do so much damage because 'freedom'...

LegendaryGamer0 said:
Got a specific excerpt or a TL;DR version
From the linked report into Stand Your ground laws;
The national investigation revealed several important findings:

1. Based on recent empirical studies, Stand Your Ground states experienced an increase in homicides.
2. Multiple states have attempted to repeal or amend Stand Your Ground laws.
3. The application of Stand Your Ground laws is unpredictable, uneven, and results in racial disparities.
4. An individual's right to self-defense was sufficiently protected prior to Stand Your Ground laws.
5. Victim's rights are undermined in states with statutory immunity from criminal prosecution and civil suit related to Stand Your Ground cases.
 

Politrukk

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Imperioratorex Caprae said:
The debate will continue to rage on because of this horrible event.

But when people say how "easy" it is to get firearms in the US, I would swear those people are ridiculously underinformed of how much a person has to go through to legally own a firearm, let alone carry one in public (depending on the state things may even be harder). Now registered, lawful firearm owners are the least likely people to carry out violent crimes involving firearms. There are incidents of people being harmed with legally owned firearms, sometimes children. Those incidents are varied from accidental discharges to incompetence, and sometimes yes crimes are committed.

However the people most likely to commit a violent crime with a firearm, involving a discharge and injury or death are people who do not own them legally. How is more regulation of legally owned firearms going to stop criminals from being criminals?

And yeah you could just take everyone's right to firearms away, punish folks who have done and more than likely will never do a thing wrong/unlawful with those firearms. It won't stop criminals from illegally obtaining guns. Not in a country this size, with as many unsecured access points. It will only harm the folks who follow the laws as is.

Education is the best way of preventing crimes, and a better mental health system that doesn't stigmatize the people who need the help and actively seek it. I'm one to readily admit to being bipolar, and having other unresolved mental health issues but dammit if I don't get a lot of fucked up looks from people like I'm going to go on a shooting spree.

I wouldn't. I'm a diplomat and pacifist up to a point, until all other avenues of conflict resolution have failed and I'm backed up against a wall or in a corner. I'd never resort to violence as an answer or solution, only a last ditch effort to prevent the loss of life.

There's no clear answer on how to prevent mass killings, but I could guarantee it wouldn't be taking everyone's right to bear arms away.
You know I've been talked into agreeing with this sort of stance by people online but I am completely abandoning it, there is no place like the U.S for people suddenly deciding to shoot their neighbourhood up.

Either the gun laws are at fault or the people, and the population simply doesn't compare to the rate of violent crime that's being dealt out.

That would mean there's something fundamentally wrong with American society, especially within the school system.
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

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Politrukk said:
You know I've been talked into agreeing with this sort of stance by people online but I am completely abandoning it, there is no place like the U.S for people suddenly deciding to shoot their neighbourhood up.

Either the gun laws are at fault or the people, and the population simply doesn't compare to the rate of violent crime that's being dealt out.

That would mean there's something fundamentally wrong with American society, especially within the school system.
There is a lot wrong with American society, and a lot of it is definitely due to the education system. I'm a product of self-teaching, a major interest in my family teaching me, and a handful of years at a private school education-wise. I learned very little of worth in the public education system, and yet my elementary school was rated an A+.

The high school I graduated from, my year had 150 students in the senior class only less than half actually graduated. I was lucky for the family I had.

Now I do feel that the biggest problem for most of today's youth, especially those in poorer districts is a lack of an education system that cares, teachers that get paid a wage that reflects their societal contributions and incentivizes them to do their utmost to teach. The education system itself is also too rigid and inflexible to accomodate non-traditional learning, especially for students who do not learn like "normal" kids.

I'd daresay that education is the biggest stopgap for crime, and the lack thereof is the largest cause of criminal acts.

Education needs a huge reform in America in so many ways I can't begin to list.

Will a better standard for education eradicate violent crimes? No, probably not. It would cut down a lot on crime I believe. Will it stop mass killings? Well I think there's another reason for the rise of that very thing, its the American sensationalist media and the way we've been shifted into a global communication age. Some people just want to be famous, and since the truth of the matter in life is that not everyone will be a rockstar, an actor or world leader, some people may take the Charles Manson route of fame. Famous by any means, live or die, they want their name to be remembered.

Famous or infamous. And there's no way you can mitigate that. Take away guns, I'd daresay they'll find another way to get their infamous status.
 

Cecilo

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Stop the War on Drugs, get better mental healthcare, stop making martyrs out of these criminals, and improve the quality of education, specifically every child should be taught the laws of the land in every school, also ideally teachers shouldn't be shoving their morals onto their students. Four ways you can help stop these horrible events without destroying an important part of America's constitution and making yourself more vulnerable to possible threats in the future.

To those that call me a tin foil hat nutjob, considering all the revelations your countries have had about the US's spying program the NSA, and Edward Snowden's leaks, I am surprised you are all so quick to go "Your government won't do anything shady". They are constantly doing shady shit, and while yes we the guns people have wont stop a tank, or bomber from attacking people if it did (Not that it ever will I personally believe), come to that, you are gonna have a hell of a harder time making people comply if they think that everyone has a proper weapon.

Edit - And personally your time would be better spent pushing for Education or Healthcare reforms than trying to attack people's right to bear arms. They aren't going to give it up. Because they see, (Or believe to see) How it goes. And that is if you say "We are just restricting them until mental healthcare/education improves" They are just going to call bullshit on that. Especially with the difficulty of getting laws repealed in this country.
 

Tsun Tzu

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TechNoFear said:
And the US allowing over 100,000 people to be shot a year, with an average medical bill of US$40k each, because of a half a sentence in a document written 100's of years ago is totally sane....
Weirdly enough, our government also allows us to drive too!

And that kills some 30-35 thousand a year (which puts it at about par with firearms) with about 5.5 million total accidents and 2.3 million casualties.

There are a good 70-80 million people in the US who own guns. 11-15,000 homicides by firearm. 21-25,000 suicides by firearm.

Compare that to the 500,000 deaths from smoking, 600,000 cancer deaths, and 130,000 from...just accidents in general.

And this is all just in the US. Which has a total population of 319 million.

Then you have places like the UK, which has about 1/4 of the total murders per capita as the US, but has also seen a relative boom in knife-related murders and violence. Seriously. People who want to kill or injure others will use whatever implements are at their disposal to get the job done. With that said, there's certainly an argument to be made for potential kill count/scale when comparing melee implements to firearms.

Perspective certainly helps here and I'm not even a gun enthusiast. Or a conservative, if you can believe it.

In fact?

Guns scare me. I get uneasy just being around the things. Because they should. Because they're weapons capable of killing people and are, therefore, worthy of a healthy amount of respect/fear. Which is why I feel NOTHING but contempt for the idiots who manage to shoot themselves or those near them by mistake. Or the people who leave their weapons out for kids to find. Or the darwin-award-winning mutants who cap themselves in the face because they're trying to take a 2edgy gun-selfie.

As for some means of maybe curbing gun deaths in the US:

1.) Background Checks - Some places have them. Some don't. Some don't put much effort into said check, if any at all. They certainly won't stop the people who are committed, but it can weed out the more flaky would-be murderers and catch some of #2.

On top of that, checks in general aren't some foolproof means of detecting future killers. The most normal folks (up until they take the actions that lead to them no longer being 'normal') are often the ones out there blowing people away. I mean...when we're not talking about gang/drug-related violence anyway.

2.) Emphasis on Increasing Awareness/Treatment for Mental Health Related Issues - Again, won't solve everything, but it may stop a few killers...and would generally help a whole hell of a lot of folks out there.

3.) MANDATORY GUN SAFETY COURSES or Licenses - I don't know why this isn't already a part of the process. You need a license to drive a car, as well as basic safety knowledge. So why the fuck can I go to the local gun store here, slap down said driver's license (I live in Indiana ;D), some money, then wait a week for a rudimentary check to clear, then walk home with a pump-action shotgun? Without demonstrating that I've got the know-how necessary to avoid blowing off my own head?

4.) Better Security at Schools and Colleges - Gun free zones are nice in principle, but, in essence, they serve as a giant neon sign to would-be mass shooters that the place is killing field.

5.) Recognizing that, no matter what we as a nation do (even 'outlawing' guns, as the UK has done they've still got a good couple hundred murders by firearm), we can't stop it all.

Again, basic thing here: 99.99% of people are decent folk who wouldn't shoot up a school, or anything else for that matter. But that .01%. Man, that .01%. They make life interesting for the other 99.99%.
 

TechNoFear

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LostGryphon said:
Perspective certainly helps here and I'm not even a gun enthusiast.
I am a firearm enthusiast. I had the government take some of my firearms away (semi-autos and handguns) and made me lock the rest in a safe.

For the loss of that 'freedom' I get to live in a place where there has not been a mass shooting for nearly 20 years, where most criminals do not have firearms and the police very rarely shoot people.

Do you think the price I paid was worth it?
 

Zhukov

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My gosh, is it massacre-O-clock in the USA already?

Timezones man. Always have trouble keeping track of them.

Well, I think we all know the drill by now. Altogether now.... "Our thoughts and prayers are with something something something..." I'm sure you know how it goes. I believe the candle-lit vigil has already taken place. Your President has made his exasperated speech. I'm just going to assume the media feeding frenzy is well underway.

Aaaaaand I see we here at the Escapist are doing our bit for the short lived and fruitless butting of heads over gun laws.

Good, good, carry on then.

See you all again in a month or so.
 

Thaluikhain

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TechNoFear said:
How about Gifford's shooting, that was not in a gun free zone.
To add to that, one of the bystanders was armed in the Gifford's case.

I've heard, but I'm not sure, that one of the bystanders in this case was armed, but didn't draw, for fear that the police would shoot them by mistake.

Hell, the Secret Service watching Reagan were armed.

I'd also note that last week, a gun owner in the US intervened in a carjacking, by firing on the thieves and hitting the victim in the head instead. They then collected their spent cartridges and ran away.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/texas-good-guy-with-a-gun-shoots-carjacking-victim-in-head-then-runs-away/
 

TechNoFear

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Revnak said:
http://www.thetrace.org/2015/10/school-shooting-oregon-community-college/
The link says that the college had conducted 3 active shooter drills in the last 2 years.

Is that common in the US?
Are they much different to fire drills?
 

TechNoFear

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thaluikhain said:
I've heard, but I'm not sure, that one of the bystanders in this case was armed, but didn't draw, for fear that the police would shoot them by mistake.
Yes, at least one military veteran student had a firearm but did not retrieve it due to concerns they would be mistaken for the shooter (see link in previous post).
 

Tsun Tzu

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TechNoFear said:
LostGryphon said:
Perspective certainly helps here and I'm not even a gun enthusiast.
I am a firearm enthusiast. I had the government take some of my firearms away (semi-autos and handguns) and make me lock the rest in a safe.

For the loss of that 'freedom' I get to live in a place where there has not been a mass shooting for nearly 20 years, where most criminals do not have firearms and the police very rarely shoot people.

Do you think the price I paid was worth it?
Where do you live?

Not the UK. They had that kerfuffle in 2010.

Maybe Australia? But, nah. They had the 2002 Monash bit, 2011 Hectorville business, and Hunt family murders. Plus the Sydney Siege dude in '14. This doesn't include the mass-killings via other means, like knives and arson.

Norway had Brevik.

It kind of seems like there are just people out there with a propensity toward murder. Unless it's just a matter of total kill count to you or something and not a matter of principle. The best you can hope for is a reduction, not elimination, which I will agree is a worthy goal in and of itself...but perspective.

Different nations though.
Different circumstances.
Different cultures.
Different criminal elements.
About 13x as many people in the US.

Apples -> Oranges.

Edit: Oh, you're an aussie. Bleh. Forgot I could check older posts.

Fun Fact - About 44% (69) of the murders (238) in Australia in 2014 were with knives.
 

Sleepy Sol

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TechNoFear said:
Revnak said:
http://www.thetrace.org/2015/10/school-shooting-oregon-community-college/
The link says that the college had conducted 3 active shooter drills in the last 2 years.

Is that common in the US?
Are they much different to fire drills?
I wouldn't say so (to being common), but then, I went straight to a 4-year university that had its own department of police officers, as well as a number of systems in place designed to minimize damage following the initial reporting of an on-campus incident. Kind of a big difference compared to UCC's one unarmed security guard.

But even then, I have multiple friends who went to another university in the same state, and they just had a shooting scare recently as well. And that campus is probably many times bigger than mine was (as well as just being a more well-known and populated school in general), so I can imagine they'd have even more extensive measures designed to prevent these sorts of incidents.

I'm just not sure what to say about this incident. It's just all kinds of fucking awful.
 

Thaluikhain

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LostGryphon said:
[
Maybe Australia? But, nah. They had the 2002 Monash bit, 2011 Hectorville business, and Hunt family murders. Plus the Sydney Siege dude in '14. This doesn't include the mass-killings via other means, like knives and arson.

Norway had Brevik.

It kind of seems like there are just people out there with a propensity toward murder. Unless it's just a matter of total kill count to you or something and not a matter of principle. The best you can hope for is a reduction, not elimination, which I will agree is a worthy goal in and of itself...but perspective.
Er, yes, certainly, nobody is saying that stricter gun laws eliminated crime in Australia, only that there was a reduction.

And, as it happens, a significant drop in the amounts of suicide by firearm, with EDIT: without an increase of the use of other methods. Though that was, I believe, an unexpected side effect, not something that influence policy.
 

Thomas Barnsley

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Sucks that these still happen. I'm not American so I don't know exactly how I'd weigh in on the issue, but I'm certainly glad to so few gunmen running around where I live in Australia.

I was wondering actually; for all the anti-gun control people, say laser weaponry became mass produceable. Or energy, or plasma, or anything with more destructive capability than a projectile based gun. Would you want restrictions on those?

The closest we have so far to such things are flamethrowers. I assume they're illegal right?
 

RedRockRun

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Why does no one give a shit about mental health? The people who are so dead set on gun control seem to believe one of three things:

1. People seem to randomly decide on committing violent crimes.
2. People with mental illness are okay as long as they're not hurting any normal people.
3. Tighter gun laws would make it harder for criminals to get their hands on guns.

Number one doesn't take mental health into question. Number two is selfish. Number three is plain wrong.

People who are able to murder others are at the end of the rope and driven to desperation or have mental issues which profoundly cloud their judgement. Instead of focusing on the tools that such people use to kill others, why not focus on the causes which cause people to want to kill?

There is a horrible stigma in our culture where mental health is shunned, and those who suffer from mental illnesses are often looked upon as being crazy. Regardless of whether a person suffers from depression, bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder or what have you, everything is lumped into the "Crazy" category. It's hidden and tucked away. The message being circulated is that it's not okay to have. The mentally ill are pariahs, so when someone snaps and kills people, people pretend that crazy is just something that can blow over a person at random or that mental illness doesn't exist at all, and other things are blamed. Take for example that church shooting. The media's story was that racism was to blame. Yes, racism caused a person to shoot innocent people in a church and not a mental disorder which had gone ignored. It's as if those with mental disorders only seem to matter once they've committed a violent act. After all, that's what a pariah is: an outcast. You don't see them, and you don't think about them.

There exists a thing called the black market. When something is illegal or unable for one to obtain legally, it can be bought illegally. There are illegal guns in the US, and they are bought illegally. Responsible gun owners don't need to illegally buy guns because they have no intention of committing violent crimes. However if gun restrictions are increased, then responsible gun owners will become criminals for now possessing heretofore legal guns. What impact will increasing gun restrictions have on those who already obtain guns through illegal channels? Have drug laws made an impact on the numbers of people who buy drugs?
 

Smooth Operator

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Well it is always surprising when this crazy shit happens, and yet again it isn't. In a country that paranoid, with people that hostile and every other household packing more firepower then their local police station... well something has to give eventually.

I highly doubt these things will go away with more guns and more paranoia.