The Oregon shooting
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There is a lot wrong with American society, and a lot of it is definitely due to the education system. I'm a product of self-teaching, a major interest in my family teaching me, and a handful of years at a private school education-wise. I learned very little of worth in the public education system, and yet my elementary school was rated an A+.Politrukk said:
The high school I graduated from, my year had 150 students in the senior class only less than half actually graduated. I was lucky for the family I had.
Now I do feel that the biggest problem for most of today's youth, especially those in poorer districts is a lack of an education system that cares, teachers that get paid a wage that reflects their societal contributions and incentivizes them to do their utmost to teach. The education system itself is also too rigid and inflexible to accomodate non-traditional learning, especially for students who do not learn like "normal" kids.
I'd daresay that education is the biggest stopgap for crime, and the lack thereof is the largest cause of criminal acts.
Education needs a huge reform in America in so many ways I can't begin to list.
Will a better standard for education eradicate violent crimes? No, probably not. It would cut down a lot on crime I believe. Will it stop mass killings? Well I think there's another reason for the rise of that very thing, its the American sensationalist media and the way we've been shifted into a global communication age. Some people just want to be famous, and since the truth of the matter in life is that not everyone will be a rockstar, an actor or world leader, some people may take the Charles Manson route of fame. Famous by any means, live or die, they want their name to be remembered.
Famous or infamous. And there's no way you can mitigate that. Take away guns, I'd daresay they'll find another way to get their infamous status.
Stop the War on Drugs, get better mental healthcare, stop making martyrs out of these criminals, and improve the quality of education, specifically every child should be taught the laws of the land in every school, also ideally teachers shouldn't be shoving their morals onto their students. Four ways you can help stop these horrible events without destroying an important part of America's constitution and making yourself more vulnerable to possible threats in the future.
To those that call me a tin foil hat nutjob, considering all the revelations your countries have had about the US's spying program the NSA, and Edward Snowden's leaks, I am surprised you are all so quick to go "Your government won't do anything shady". They are constantly doing shady shit, and while yes we the guns people have wont stop a tank, or bomber from attacking people if it did (Not that it ever will I personally believe), come to that, you are gonna have a hell of a harder time making people comply if they think that everyone has a proper weapon.
Edit - And personally your time would be better spent pushing for Education or Healthcare reforms than trying to attack people's right to bear arms. They aren't going to give it up. Because they see, (Or believe to see) How it goes. And that is if you say "We are just restricting them until mental healthcare/education improves" They are just going to call bullshit on that. Especially with the difficulty of getting laws repealed in this country.
To those that call me a tin foil hat nutjob, considering all the revelations your countries have had about the US's spying program the NSA, and Edward Snowden's leaks, I am surprised you are all so quick to go "Your government won't do anything shady". They are constantly doing shady shit, and while yes we the guns people have wont stop a tank, or bomber from attacking people if it did (Not that it ever will I personally believe), come to that, you are gonna have a hell of a harder time making people comply if they think that everyone has a proper weapon.
Edit - And personally your time would be better spent pushing for Education or Healthcare reforms than trying to attack people's right to bear arms. They aren't going to give it up. Because they see, (Or believe to see) How it goes. And that is if you say "We are just restricting them until mental healthcare/education improves" They are just going to call bullshit on that. Especially with the difficulty of getting laws repealed in this country.
Weirdly enough, our government also allows us to drive too!TechNoFear said:
And that kills some 30-35 thousand a year (which puts it at about par with firearms) with about 5.5 million total accidents and 2.3 million casualties.
There are a good 70-80 million people in the US who own guns. 11-15,000 homicides by firearm. 21-25,000 suicides by firearm.
Compare that to the 500,000 deaths from smoking, 600,000 cancer deaths, and 130,000 from...just accidents in general.
And this is all just in the US. Which has a total population of 319 million.
Then you have places like the UK, which has about 1/4 of the total murders per capita as the US, but has also seen a relative boom in knife-related murders and violence. Seriously. People who want to kill or injure others will use whatever implements are at their disposal to get the job done. With that said, there's certainly an argument to be made for potential kill count/scale when comparing melee implements to firearms.
Perspective certainly helps here and I'm not even a gun enthusiast. Or a conservative, if you can believe it.
In fact?
Guns scare me. I get uneasy just being around the things. Because they should. Because they're weapons capable of killing people and are, therefore, worthy of a healthy amount of respect/fear. Which is why I feel NOTHING but contempt for the idiots who manage to shoot themselves or those near them by mistake. Or the people who leave their weapons out for kids to find. Or the darwin-award-winning mutants who cap themselves in the face because they're trying to take a 2edgy gun-selfie.
As for some means of maybe curbing gun deaths in the US:
1.) Background Checks - Some places have them. Some don't. Some don't put much effort into said check, if any at all. They certainly won't stop the people who are committed, but it can weed out the more flaky would-be murderers and catch some of #2.
On top of that, checks in general aren't some foolproof means of detecting future killers. The most normal folks (up until they take the actions that lead to them no longer being 'normal') are often the ones out there blowing people away. I mean...when we're not talking about gang/drug-related violence anyway.
2.) Emphasis on Increasing Awareness/Treatment for Mental Health Related Issues - Again, won't solve everything, but it may stop a few killers...and would generally help a whole hell of a lot of folks out there.
3.) MANDATORY GUN SAFETY COURSES or Licenses - I don't know why this isn't already a part of the process. You need a license to drive a car, as well as basic safety knowledge. So why the fuck can I go to the local gun store here, slap down said driver's license (I live in Indiana ;D), some money, then wait a week for a rudimentary check to clear, then walk home with a pump-action shotgun? Without demonstrating that I've got the know-how necessary to avoid blowing off my own head?
4.) Better Security at Schools and Colleges - Gun free zones are nice in principle, but, in essence, they serve as a giant neon sign to would-be mass shooters that the place is killing field.
5.) Recognizing that, no matter what we as a nation do (even 'outlawing' guns, as the UK has done they've still got a good couple hundred murders by firearm), we can't stop it all.
Again, basic thing here: 99.99% of people are decent folk who wouldn't shoot up a school, or anything else for that matter. But that .01%. Man, that .01%. They make life interesting for the other 99.99%.
I am a firearm enthusiast. I had the government take some of my firearms away (semi-autos and handguns) and made me lock the rest in a safe.LostGryphon said:
For the loss of that 'freedom' I get to live in a place where there has not been a mass shooting for nearly 20 years, where most criminals do not have firearms and the police very rarely shoot people.
Do you think the price I paid was worth it?
My gosh, is it massacre-O-clock in the USA already?
Timezones man. Always have trouble keeping track of them.
Well, I think we all know the drill by now. Altogether now.... "Our thoughts and prayers are with something something something..." I'm sure you know how it goes. I believe the candle-lit vigil has already taken place. Your President has made his exasperated speech. I'm just going to assume the media feeding frenzy is well underway.
Aaaaaand I see we here at the Escapist are doing our bit for the short lived and fruitless butting of heads over gun laws.
Good, good, carry on then.
See you all again in a month or so.
Timezones man. Always have trouble keeping track of them.
Well, I think we all know the drill by now. Altogether now.... "Our thoughts and prayers are with something something something..." I'm sure you know how it goes. I believe the candle-lit vigil has already taken place. Your President has made his exasperated speech. I'm just going to assume the media feeding frenzy is well underway.
Aaaaaand I see we here at the Escapist are doing our bit for the short lived and fruitless butting of heads over gun laws.
Good, good, carry on then.
See you all again in a month or so.
To add to that, one of the bystanders was armed in the Gifford's case.TechNoFear said:
I've heard, but I'm not sure, that one of the bystanders in this case was armed, but didn't draw, for fear that the police would shoot them by mistake.
Hell, the Secret Service watching Reagan were armed.
I'd also note that last week, a gun owner in the US intervened in a carjacking, by firing on the thieves and hitting the victim in the head instead. They then collected their spent cartridges and ran away.
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/texas-good-guy-with-a-gun-shoots-carjacking-victim-in-head-then-runs-away/
The link says that the college had conducted 3 active shooter drills in the last 2 years.Revnak said:
Is that common in the US?
Are they much different to fire drills?
Yes, at least one military veteran student had a firearm but did not retrieve it due to concerns they would be mistaken for the shooter (see link in previous post).thaluikhain said:
Where do you live?TechNoFear said:
Not the UK. They had that kerfuffle in 2010.
Maybe Australia? But, nah. They had the 2002 Monash bit, 2011 Hectorville business, and Hunt family murders. Plus the Sydney Siege dude in '14. This doesn't include the mass-killings via other means, like knives and arson.
Norway had Brevik.
It kind of seems like there are just people out there with a propensity toward murder. Unless it's just a matter of total kill count to you or something and not a matter of principle. The best you can hope for is a reduction, not elimination, which I will agree is a worthy goal in and of itself...but perspective.
Different nations though.
Different circumstances.
Different cultures.
Different criminal elements.
About 13x as many people in the US.
Apples -> Oranges.
Edit: Oh, you're an aussie. Bleh. Forgot I could check older posts.
Fun Fact - About 44% (69) of the murders (238) in Australia in 2014 were with knives.
I wouldn't say so (to being common), but then, I went straight to a 4-year university that had its own department of police officers, as well as a number of systems in place designed to minimize damage following the initial reporting of an on-campus incident. Kind of a big difference compared to UCC's one unarmed security guard.TechNoFear said:
But even then, I have multiple friends who went to another university in the same state, and they just had a shooting scare recently as well. And that campus is probably many times bigger than mine was (as well as just being a more well-known and populated school in general), so I can imagine they'd have even more extensive measures designed to prevent these sorts of incidents.
I'm just not sure what to say about this incident. It's just all kinds of fucking awful.
Er, yes, certainly, nobody is saying that stricter gun laws eliminated crime in Australia, only that there was a reduction.LostGryphon said:
And, as it happens, a significant drop in the amounts of suicide by firearm,
Sucks that these still happen. I'm not American so I don't know exactly how I'd weigh in on the issue, but I'm certainly glad to so few gunmen running around where I live in Australia.
I was wondering actually; for all the anti-gun control people, say laser weaponry became mass produceable. Or energy, or plasma, or anything with more destructive capability than a projectile based gun. Would you want restrictions on those?
The closest we have so far to such things are flamethrowers. I assume they're illegal right?
I was wondering actually; for all the anti-gun control people, say laser weaponry became mass produceable. Or energy, or plasma, or anything with more destructive capability than a projectile based gun. Would you want restrictions on those?
The closest we have so far to such things are flamethrowers. I assume they're illegal right?
Why does no one give a shit about mental health? The people who are so dead set on gun control seem to believe one of three things:
1. People seem to randomly decide on committing violent crimes.
2. People with mental illness are okay as long as they're not hurting any normal people.
3. Tighter gun laws would make it harder for criminals to get their hands on guns.
Number one doesn't take mental health into question. Number two is selfish. Number three is plain wrong.
People who are able to murder others are at the end of the rope and driven to desperation or have mental issues which profoundly cloud their judgement. Instead of focusing on the tools that such people use to kill others, why not focus on the causes which cause people to want to kill?
There is a horrible stigma in our culture where mental health is shunned, and those who suffer from mental illnesses are often looked upon as being crazy. Regardless of whether a person suffers from depression, bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder or what have you, everything is lumped into the "Crazy" category. It's hidden and tucked away. The message being circulated is that it's not okay to have. The mentally ill are pariahs, so when someone snaps and kills people, people pretend that crazy is just something that can blow over a person at random or that mental illness doesn't exist at all, and other things are blamed. Take for example that church shooting. The media's story was that racism was to blame. Yes, racism caused a person to shoot innocent people in a church and not a mental disorder which had gone ignored. It's as if those with mental disorders only seem to matter once they've committed a violent act. After all, that's what a pariah is: an outcast. You don't see them, and you don't think about them.
There exists a thing called the black market. When something is illegal or unable for one to obtain legally, it can be bought illegally. There are illegal guns in the US, and they are bought illegally. Responsible gun owners don't need to illegally buy guns because they have no intention of committing violent crimes. However if gun restrictions are increased, then responsible gun owners will become criminals for now possessing heretofore legal guns. What impact will increasing gun restrictions have on those who already obtain guns through illegal channels? Have drug laws made an impact on the numbers of people who buy drugs?
1. People seem to randomly decide on committing violent crimes.
2. People with mental illness are okay as long as they're not hurting any normal people.
3. Tighter gun laws would make it harder for criminals to get their hands on guns.
Number one doesn't take mental health into question. Number two is selfish. Number three is plain wrong.
People who are able to murder others are at the end of the rope and driven to desperation or have mental issues which profoundly cloud their judgement. Instead of focusing on the tools that such people use to kill others, why not focus on the causes which cause people to want to kill?
There is a horrible stigma in our culture where mental health is shunned, and those who suffer from mental illnesses are often looked upon as being crazy. Regardless of whether a person suffers from depression, bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder or what have you, everything is lumped into the "Crazy" category. It's hidden and tucked away. The message being circulated is that it's not okay to have. The mentally ill are pariahs, so when someone snaps and kills people, people pretend that crazy is just something that can blow over a person at random or that mental illness doesn't exist at all, and other things are blamed. Take for example that church shooting. The media's story was that racism was to blame. Yes, racism caused a person to shoot innocent people in a church and not a mental disorder which had gone ignored. It's as if those with mental disorders only seem to matter once they've committed a violent act. After all, that's what a pariah is: an outcast. You don't see them, and you don't think about them.
There exists a thing called the black market. When something is illegal or unable for one to obtain legally, it can be bought illegally. There are illegal guns in the US, and they are bought illegally. Responsible gun owners don't need to illegally buy guns because they have no intention of committing violent crimes. However if gun restrictions are increased, then responsible gun owners will become criminals for now possessing heretofore legal guns. What impact will increasing gun restrictions have on those who already obtain guns through illegal channels? Have drug laws made an impact on the numbers of people who buy drugs?
Well it is always surprising when this crazy shit happens, and yet again it isn't. In a country that paranoid, with people that hostile and every other household packing more firepower then their local police station... well something has to give eventually.
I highly doubt these things will go away with more guns and more paranoia.
I highly doubt these things will go away with more guns and more paranoia.
You CAN own flamethrowers?! I suppose they're not going to get much use as implements of mass murder since they're a bit too difficult to get into public places unchallenged.The_Kodu said:
Still, you'd think if these people were really keen on getting attention one of them would try it eventually. Such a stunt would probably get you your own media nickname.
Maybe that's what will happen if this doesn't get fixed. They'll get more and more 'creative' in an effort to out-do eachother. Maybe they'd form teams, like gangs but for anarchy and attention seeking instead of business and brotherhood. America would get the apocalypse it's fanticised about for so long.
Automatic weapons are very heavily restricted, and are almost never used in crimes. As in, 2 or 3 civilians commit crimes with them a century...barring semi-automatics illegal modified into full automatic ones.The_Kodu said:
Well yes, sticking people into arbitrary ideas of masculinity is part of the problem people talking about toxic masculinity are talking about.The_Kodu said:
Yeah, no. Especially not this part.The_Kodu said:
To the people that argue "Yeah, well if they restrict guns they should restrict vehicles too, they kill x amount of people a year!"
A motor vehicle is a tool with widespread use that has benefited civilian society massively, allowing us to perform feats we would not have been able to comprehend 200 years ago. Thanks to cars you can cross the country to visit your family in a matters of days, not months. You can get building materials on a massive scale from point a to point b easily. You can transport organs and blood to those who need it, such as those who have been critically injured in shootings such as this.
A motor vehicle is a tool with a wide range of uses.
What uses does a gun have?
Intimidation/threatening (including warning shots). Shooting as a sport and recreational activity (including hunting and ranges). Killing.
A gun is not a tool that is necessary for modern society to function efficiently. Motor vehicle use is strictly controlled, with restriction depending on both physical and mental health (in the uk at least. I can't drive due to my mental condition, and if it can save people lives then I accept that.) You need a license. If you cross the line after going through the system, you get punished hopefully before anyone is hurt.
With guns, the first sign that you probably shouldn't be allowed a gun (once you have your firearms license) is when someone dies.
But hey, what do I know, I'm from the UK. We're totally not free.
A motor vehicle is a tool with widespread use that has benefited civilian society massively, allowing us to perform feats we would not have been able to comprehend 200 years ago. Thanks to cars you can cross the country to visit your family in a matters of days, not months. You can get building materials on a massive scale from point a to point b easily. You can transport organs and blood to those who need it, such as those who have been critically injured in shootings such as this.
A motor vehicle is a tool with a wide range of uses.
What uses does a gun have?
Intimidation/threatening (including warning shots). Shooting as a sport and recreational activity (including hunting and ranges). Killing.
A gun is not a tool that is necessary for modern society to function efficiently. Motor vehicle use is strictly controlled, with restriction depending on both physical and mental health (in the uk at least. I can't drive due to my mental condition, and if it can save people lives then I accept that.) You need a license. If you cross the line after going through the system, you get punished hopefully before anyone is hurt.
With guns, the first sign that you probably shouldn't be allowed a gun (once you have your firearms license) is when someone dies.
But hey, what do I know, I'm from the UK. We're totally not free.
I'm led to believe there are serious legal repercussions in the US if you use a gun for that. Draw a weapon on them, and you are best advised to kill them.rosac said:
I am not a lawyer, though.
Merely clarifying that I get the intent.thaluikhain said:
And of course there would be an increase in other methods. There are people who want to kill themselves and, frankly, they're going to find a method to do it if they want it badly enough. Hell, the Japanese have an issue with people throwing themselves in front of trains as well as a generally pretty high suicide rate.
Guns are just quicker.
Yep. The reasoning for which can be read in two ways:
1. You're exerting lethal force where lethal force was not required, as it could be argued that you were not threatened sufficiently to exert said force and, therefore, acted outside the bounds of law.
Edit: That's for warning shots, mind. Just taking the gun out is more of a grey area, but can be an issue.
2. Lawyers are dicks.
Generally the advice is to just not pull a gun unless you're in a life or death situation.