The Oregon shooting

[Thomas Barnsley]

Sucks that these still happen. I'm not American so I don't know exactly how I'd weigh in on the issue, but I'm certainly glad to so few gunmen running around where I live in Australia.

I was wondering actually; for all the anti-gun control people, say laser weaponry became mass produceable. Or energy, or plasma, or anything with more destructive capability than a projectile based gun. Would you want restrictions on those?

The closest we have so far to such things are flamethrowers. I assume they're illegal right?

Damn Lasers would likely be less destructive. I mean you're essentially shooting energy which would burn and cauterise the wound. Plasma you have a point with that stuff would be nasty and burn like hell.

Also despite not being from the USA, I happen to know in US lawn in certain states you can legally own a flamethrower.

You CAN own flamethrowers?! I suppose they're not going to get much use as implements of mass murder since they're a bit too difficult to get into public places unchallenged.

Still, you'd think if these people were really keen on getting attention one of them would try it eventually. Such a stunt would probably get you your own media nickname.

Maybe that's what will happen if this doesn't get fixed. They'll get more and more 'creative' in an effort to out-do eachother. Maybe they'd form teams, like gangs but for anarchy and attention seeking instead of business and brotherhood. America would get the apocalypse it's fanticised about for so long.

 

[Thaluikhain]

you don't need full auto assault rifles

Automatic weapons are very heavily restricted, and are almost never used in crimes. As in, 2 or 3 civilians commit crimes with them a century...barring semi-automatics illegal modified into full automatic ones.

When in reality Toxic masculinity is not being happy with yourself and trying to fit into some other system of masculinity rather than accepting your masculinity on a multitude of terms and traits available.

Well yes, sticking people into arbitrary ideas of masculinity is part of the problem people talking about toxic masculinity are talking about.

- Maybe it's because they're seen as fair game. If they're accused of something because they're male they probably did it is the media perception I'm getting of the US.

Yeah, no. Especially not this part.

 

[rosac]

To the people that argue "Yeah, well if they restrict guns they should restrict vehicles too, they kill x amount of people a year!"

A motor vehicle is a tool with widespread use that has benefited civilian society massively, allowing us to perform feats we would not have been able to comprehend 200 years ago. Thanks to cars you can cross the country to visit your family in a matters of days, not months. You can get building materials on a massive scale from point a to point b easily. You can transport organs and blood to those who need it, such as those who have been critically injured in shootings such as this.

A motor vehicle is a tool with a wide range of uses.

What uses does a gun have?

Intimidation/threatening (including warning shots). Shooting as a sport and recreational activity (including hunting and ranges). Killing.

A gun is not a tool that is necessary for modern society to function efficiently. Motor vehicle use is strictly controlled, with restriction depending on both physical and mental health (in the uk at least. I can't drive due to my mental condition, and if it can save people lives then I accept that.) You need a license. If you cross the line after going through the system, you get punished hopefully before anyone is hurt.

With guns, the first sign that you probably shouldn't be allowed a gun (once you have your firearms license) is when someone dies.

But hey, what do I know, I'm from the UK. We're totally not free.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Intimidation/threatening (including warning shots).

I'm led to believe there are serious legal repercussions in the US if you use a gun for that. Draw a weapon on them, and you are best advised to kill them.

I am not a lawyer, though.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Er, yes, certainly, nobody is saying that stricter gun laws eliminated crime in Australia, only that there was a reduction.

And, as it happens, a significant drop in the amounts of suicide by firearm, with an increase of the use of other methods. Though that was, I believe, an unexpected side effect, not something that influence policy.

Merely clarifying that I get the intent.

And of course there would be an increase in other methods. There are people who want to kill themselves and, frankly, they're going to find a method to do it if they want it badly enough. Hell, the Japanese have an issue with people throwing themselves in front of trains as well as a generally pretty high suicide rate.

Guns are just quicker.

I'm led to believe there are serious legal repercussions in the US if you use a gun for that. Draw a weapon on them, and you are best advised to kill them.

I am not a lawyer, though.

Yep. The reasoning for which can be read in two ways:

1. You're exerting lethal force where lethal force was not required, as it could be argued that you were not threatened sufficiently to exert said force and, therefore, acted outside the bounds of law.

Edit: That's for warning shots, mind. Just taking the gun out is more of a grey area, but can be an issue.

2. Lawyers are dicks.

Generally the advice is to just not pull a gun unless you're in a life or death situation.

 

[Thaluikhain]

And of course there would be an increase in other methods. There are people who want to kill themselves and, frankly, they're going to find a method to do it if they want it badly enough. Hell, the Japanese have an issue with people throwing themselves in front of trains as well as a generally pretty high suicide rate.

Guns are just quicker.

Oops, that should have been "without", not "with". People (predominantly men) didn't use other methods instead, as it's much easier and simpler and likely to work to kill yourself with a firearm than by most other methods.

If people want it badly enough, sure, they'll find a way. Evidently a substantial amount wanted it badly enough to use a firearm, but not enough to use another method.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Oops, that should have been "without", not "with". People (predominantly men) didn't use other methods instead, as it's much easier and simpler and likely to work to kill yourself with a firearm than by most other methods.

If people want it badly enough, sure, they'll find a way. Evidently a substantial amount wanted it badly enough to use a firearm, but not enough to use another method.

Bit of a difference there. >_>

But, yeah, looking at the numbers I do see a pretty big decrease. However, hanging appears to be (significantly) on the rise, at least proportionally, while the per capita rate (in some regions) has about halved (it's gone up in others) over the course of those two decades from 88 to 07, which includes all methods, not just guns. Apparently it's about an 8% drop in total deaths, all told.

This is an interesting read:

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2010/192/8/suicide-australia-meta-analysis-rates-and-methods-suicide-between-1988-and-2007

Not exactly up to date, but it still covers a good decade pre and post enactment of the law.

Edit: Further, I don't think you could just dismiss the decline as being owed exclusively to the relative ease of firearm use/access. Plenty of factors at work here. A lot's changed over the last few decades; globally, medically, and in terms of the field of psychology.

 

[BOOM headshot65]

Going on a stabbing spree ends in a lot less bodies than a shooting spree.

Who said anything about stabbing?

*****, Please! Get out of here with your measly fireworks. Let me show you a true attack: 168 Dead, Hundreds wounded. [http://cdn.thedailybeast.com/content/dailybeast/articles/2012/04/18/oklahoma-city-bombing-s-unanswered-questions-in-new-book/jcr:content/image.img.2000.jpg/1334839463502.cached.jpg]

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

"There's no way of preventing this!", says the country where this only happens.

 

[otakon17]

Yeah heard about this recently as well, shame. That Mintz guy though, he's a damn stellar person for what he did, good on him his donations are going so swimmingly. I've always had a question, why not instead of restricting the guns, restrict the ammunition? Guns are freaking useless without it, tell folks they can have all the massive guns they want but they can't be allowed to buy the ammo for'em and limit all others to extremely limited quantities over the course of years. Ban the sales of any kits that allow someone to make their own ammunition from spent casings and the supplies of such. That sort of thing.

There, you can have all the guns you want, but not the ammo to use them.

 

[Leg End]

Going on a stabbing spree ends in a lot less bodies than a shooting spree.

Who said anything about stabbing?

*****, Please! Get out of here with your measly fireworks. Let me show you a true attack: 168 Dead, Hundreds wounded. [http://cdn.thedailybeast.com/content/dailybeast/articles/2012/04/18/oklahoma-city-bombing-s-unanswered-questions-in-new-book/jcr:content/image.img.2000.jpg/1334839463502.cached.jpg]

Far better in example but was aiming generally at school attacks. Still works.

I've always had a question, why not instead of restricting the guns, restrict the ammunition? Guns are freaking useless without it, tell folks they can have all the massive guns they want but they can't be allowed to buy the ammo for'em and limit all others to extremely limited quantities over the course of years. Ban the sales of any kits that allow someone to make their own ammunition from spent casings and the supplies of such. That sort of thing.

There, you can have all the guns you want, but not the ammo to use them.

Because that is also a violation of the second amendment. It's kind of like saying "damn, they have their pesky freedom. I know, we'll get rid of this to make it moot!". Makes you look like a very old and bad cartoon villain that way.
Though, you can bet your ass that ammo prices will be through the roof after this with all of the panic buyers and scalpers.

 

[gandhi the peacemake]

What gun laws are in existence today, both at the local and federal level?

What laws are in place that restrict the purchase of ammunition and ammunition supplies? Why do or why don't these laws exist?

I often see the argument from gun advocates that the problem with gun violence isn't a lack of gun regulation, but rather insufficient mental health coverage. What research can one point to that makes this correlation and causation? (For that matter, I've also heard from gun regulation advocates that the mentally ill are less likely to be the perpetrators of gun violence and are in fact more often the victims of gun violence. What research suggests this?)

And, of course, there's the 2nd Amendment. I understand what it means as interpreted by modern gun rights advocates, but I've begun to see the suggestion that such an interpretation is a flawed one based on historical context. What contexts should be considered that lead to a supposedly less flawed understanding of the 2nd Amendment?

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yeah heard about this recently as well, shame. That Mintz guy though, he's a damn stellar person for what he did, good on him his donations are going so swimmingly. I've always had a question, why not instead of restricting the guns, restrict the ammunition? Guns are freaking useless without it, tell folks they can have all the massive guns they want but they can't be allowed to buy the ammo for'em and limit all others to extremely limited quantities over the course of years. Ban the sales of any kits that allow someone to make their own ammunition from spent casings and the supplies of such. That sort of thing.

There, you can have all the guns you want, but not the ammo to use them.

Much easier to make your own ammo than your own guns.

And, if someone is waving a gun in your face, are you going to know if it's loaded or not?

 

[Leg End]

What gun laws are in existence today, both at the local and federal level?

So many I can't name them all especially since when you get to state level it's a large variable. At the federal level, you can say the most well known one is the National Firearms Act, which was a major turning point in gun rights, and not for the better.

What laws are in place that restrict the purchase of ammunition and ammunition supplies? Why do or why don't these laws exist?

Not as many as you'd imagine, and in, I'd say, most places, you can order ammunition and reloading supplies online and have it shipped straight to your door. The places where you can't are a small handful, mostly being Los Angeles and New York. As for why they do or don't, primarily involves laws put in out of panic after major events.

I often see the argument from gun advocates that the problem with gun violence isn't a lack of gun regulation, but rather insufficient mental health coverage. What research can one point to that makes this correlation and causation? (For that matter, I've also heard from gun regulation advocates that the mentally ill are less likely to be the perpetrators of gun violence and are in fact more often the victims of gun violence. What research suggests this?)

Can't speak too much on this because I can't get the numbers at the current time. From a personal standpoint, it isn't people using firearms for these events, but people doing it in the first place. Why do we have people resorting to executing people en masse for any reason?

And, of course, there's the 2nd Amendment. I understand what it means as interpreted by modern gun rights advocates, but I've begun to see the suggestion that such an interpretation is a flawed one based on historical context. What contexts should be considered that lead to a supposedly less flawed understanding of the 2nd Amendment?

I don't even know what to say. From a personal standpoint again, I don't get how it's a flawed one.
How many ways can you read a sentence, really?

Much easier to make your own ammo than your own guns.

And, if someone is waving a gun in your face, are you going to know if it's loaded or not?

Hell, you can make a shotgun out of about ten bucks of pipes from Home Depot, no tools required. Not even getting into the territory of zip guns.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Much easier to make your own ammo than your own guns.

And, if someone is waving a gun in your face, are you going to know if it's loaded or not?

Hell, you can make a shotgun out of about ten bucks of pipes from Home Depot, no tools required. Not even getting into the territory of zip guns.

True, I should have specified it being easier to make decent ammo than decent guns. You are unlikely to have a mass shooting with a Philippine Guerrilla Gun (despite it being pretty cool), but homemade ammo is likely to work fine.

 

[Leg End]

You are unlikely to have a mass shooting with a Philippine Guerrilla Gun (despite it being pretty cool)

inb4 someone actually does use one and fucks us all.

 

[Josh123914]

You are unlikely to have a mass shooting with a Philippine Guerrilla Gun (despite it being pretty cool)

inb4 someone actually does use one and fucks us all.

I just casually googled what that is.

Jeez....

I'd actually be impressed. It looks like a pellet gun with a hunting rifle taped to the end of it.

 

[Callate]

The thing is, there isn't some clear and impassible line between legal and illegal firearms; most of the weapons that are used in shootings weren't illegally imported from other countries, or manufactured off the books. Some guns used in crimes were stolen; some came from legally licensed dealers who none the less engaged in illegal trade; many others were obtained through "straw purchases", where a legal purchase was made and then the weapon was illegally transferred to someone else.

It is difficult not to reason that there would be fewer guns available to shooters if there weren't so many guns available in general, and so poorly regulated and tracked, in the first place.

 

[Leg End]

You are unlikely to have a mass shooting with a Philippine Guerrilla Gun (despite it being pretty cool)

inb4 someone actually does use one and fucks us all.

I just casually googled what that is.

Jeez....

I'd actually be impressed. It looks like a pellet gun with a hunting rifle taped to the end of it.

We must go cheaper.