The Problem With Twilight

Fearzone

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Dec 3, 2008
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PhiMed said:
Fearzone said:
PhiMed said:
Fearzone said:
Social attitudes around sexual promiscuity and restraint do not progress in one direction but rather cycle back and forth throughout history. Just look at the Romans.
Suggesting that the fall of Rome was not kind of a step backwards for society?
That's a complicated question for which I don't have a quick answer, but I don't think the fall of Rome had much to do with social values and much more to do with economic sustainability of military expansionism. The point is, throughout history attitudes on sex span the spectrum from society to society and I doubt anyone could convincingly show any linear "forward" or "backward" direction over time.
I didn't say it had anything to do with social values. You just said that there wasn't progress in one direction or the other in terms of sexual promiscuity, then cited the Romans as a sexually promiscuous society. This seemed to imply to me that Romans were "back", and most of what has come since has been "forward".

It may have been "forward" in time, but generally speaking, I'd say that everything for about 1600 years after the fall of Rome can safely be considered "back" from Rome in every conceivable fashion other than chronologically.

You are free to contest this, and you're correct that attitudes cycle in the short term, but the long-term trend is that technological advancement and general living standards are correlated positively with loosening attitudes about sex and greater independence for women.

So I call bs on your suggestion that there is no "forwards" or "backwards" regarding sexual attitudes and women's rights.
I'll say Roman society was a pretty mixed bag. As great as it was, I'm not sure I would like to have lived in it, or preferred it over the middle ages (discounting the climate changes and epidemics that had nothing to do with the social order). I suspect a strong link between Roman brutality and the rise of Christianity.

While empowerment of women I agree is a "forward" trend, I wouldn't equate that with attitudes about sex. I mean, assuming Movie Bob's interpretation of the hidden meanings is valid--who wrote and who is going to read and watch the Twilight books and movies? Shouldn't women be free to enjoy their entertainment, and interpret as they please, and hold what values they do, whatever that may be?
 

Acting like a FOOL

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Ridergurl10 said:
MovieBob said:
The Problem With Twilight

It's more than just bad moviemaking.

Read Full Article
I'm so glad someone else sees the problems with this series that I do.

Although I worry much more about teaching girls that their lives should revolve around a guy (or two), then brainwashing them into thinking they have to stay virgins. An entire generation of girls who can't think for themselves just scares me, thats all there is to say.

There are SOOO many better books for teenage girls with MUCH better messages . . . not to mention better writing. Although I'm pretty sure I've read elementary school book reports with better writing than this series :)
a generation of girls who "can't" think! THIS generation of girls isn't thinking...
that's how this whole thing got so big in the first place.Mostly it's children doing something because other children are doing the same thing.there's some larger sociological explanation behind this reply but I think I said 'nuff.
 

Lord_Ascendant

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Seneschal said:
Twilight.falls said:
MovieBob speaketh the truth once more.
Lord_Ascendant said:
and thats the Gospel truth, boys and girls.

*amen*
snowman6251 said:
First of all Moviebob speaks only truth.

Second of all, I'm not into men so I'm not necessarily the best judge but is the dude who plays Edward supposed to be attractive? I think he's ugly as fuck. His face is like, malformed or something.
Since MovieBob is an Avatar of Truth to you all, I'm anxious to know what kind of morally restrained gender-equal balanced videogames praising nonviolence, civiliziational values and the pursuit of peace in an orderly manner are you people playing.
Touchè
 

Breaker deGodot

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MovieBob said:
The Problem With Twilight

It's more than just bad moviemaking.

Read Full Article
I find it ironic that you call it "The Problem With Twilight". It seems to imply that there is only one flaw. Of course, we all know that's bullshit.

[http://dragcave.net/view/rYtd]
 

Luke Cartner

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May 6, 2010
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Ridergurl10 said:
Seldon2639 said:
Ridergurl10 said:
MovieBob said:
The Problem With Twilight

It's more than just bad moviemaking.

Read Full Article
I'm so glad someone else sees the problems with this series that I do.

Although I worry much more about teaching girls that their lives should revolve around a guy (or two), then brainwashing them into thinking they have to stay virgins. An entire generation of girls who can't think for themselves just scares me, thats all there is to say.

There are SOOO many better books for teenage girls with MUCH better messages . . . not to mention better writing. Although I'm pretty sure I've read elementary school book reports with better writing than this series :)
For perspective's sake, though, is the "your life revolves around your life interest" any different from any romantic comedy? I mean, a review of even some of Gaiman's work would have some very similar undertones of female vulnerability, male heroism, ect.

Every form of media focused on romance is based in large part on the premise that "my life revolves around my love". I mean, come on, from D.N Angel and Full Metal Panic to Stardust, to John Cusack's extended resume, it's all about obsession (perhaps love) being the driving force in someone's life.

True, the male-centric stories tend more toward the deed of daring do, but even that's tinged by the "manipulative *****" aspect; and if we assume that young men are just as empty-headed as young women, then the entire catalog of tropes in that genre are doing just as much harm.

How about we count it all as escapist fantasy, and assume that the readers (male and female) can distinguish between fiction and reality.

On the issue of Bella's self, sacrifice, though, it does raise an interesting question. If the roles were significantly reversed, and a guy had to harm himself/endanger his life in order to protect or aid his love interest, would we bat an eye? When Richard in the Sword of Truth series does stupid shit in order to protect Kahlan, do we consider it wrong? When Harry Dresden becomes self-destructive and retarded after the loss of his girlfriend (and, arguably, the love of his life), do we view it as self-indulgent crap, or as legitimate character development?

Maybe I'm spending too much time defending a series I don't have any actual affection for (and I have defended the mythological "everyone makes shit up" aspect of vampire stories), but it seems like the same behavior we deride in Bella (and consider antediluvian) we would praise in a male character.

I can talk about the "virginity/honor killing" thing another time, it just feels like we're not being entirely fair.
I hate to disagree but you couldn't be more wrong. While you do make some good points about the whole self sacrifice thing on Bella's part, that isn't really what I meant about her being so reliant on the boys in the story. I have read plenty of books where the female leads sacrifice just as much as the male leads, and do so without being so wimpy. Bella has NO existance wthout Edward, her life literally revolves around him.

Try reading anything by J.D. Robb for example. Her books are about a strong female lead who is married (after the third book at least), but she has a life without her man. Both main charactors in that particular series have issues and rely on eachother to get through them, but it goes both ways. In the Twilight books Edward is ALWAYS the one saving Bella, she can't do ANYTHING without him.

For me its all about going both ways in these books. Bella is always being saved, never doing the saving. She thinks life is over when Edward leaves, while he apparently continues to function (even though I'm sure he misses her). Bellas is just not the kind of role model I think is good for girls who are still developing their sense of self. They should be looking at female leads who can save themselves, not rely on a man to do it for them (I swear I'm not some crazy feminist, I just hate books when the girls are TOTALLY useless without their men)!!
I cant agree enough with this statement. I mean in the same genre (pulp fiction about vampires) you have two very strong female protagonists (Anita Blake and Sookie Stackhouse) both who sacrifice themselves when necessary but are still strong, independent characters.
 

(LK)

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Mar 4, 2010
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I'm kind of thankful there's more good reasons to dislike Twilight aside from it being schlock.

Hating it for being shoddy escapism feels snobbish. Hating it for being culturally immature shoddy escapism feels snobbish too, but I can hide behind moral indignation.

(I'm mostly just making fun of myself, here)
 

Warnolo

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Apr 30, 2010
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RaphaelsRedemption said:
I hate Twilight, and I've only just understood why...

Bella (whiny little ***** that she is) has no social skills and no friends. She makes no effort to know those classmates in her school... or just about anyone. I know this, I read the books.

Look, that's ok, I did that too. But the thing is, Bella gets a boyfriend. No, scratch that, she gets two hunky immortal types who fight over her. This is not real, girlies! You Twihards need to understand being introverted and unsociable does not gets you the continued interest of men!

I got a boyfriend eventually... when I was 21! Ok, living proof right there. And I had to work hard on communication and friendship and stuff first. That's really what I hate about Twilight. As far I can tell, it leads girls to believe that it's ok to be social inept and not to care about others, only about yourself. That your worth is determined by the number of immortal hunks fighting over you, even though you have the personality of a wet tea towel, and that it could really happen.

I mean, I want to see the ending where both the vampire and the werewolf realise what a brat Bella is and walk away. So she can grow a personality. And hopefully a brain.
You won me, im 26 and still no girlfriend.
 

Warnolo

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snowman6251 said:
Seneschal said:
Twilight.falls said:
MovieBob speaketh the truth once more.
Lord_Ascendant said:
and thats the Gospel truth, boys and girls.

*amen*
snowman6251 said:
First of all Moviebob speaks only truth.

Second of all, I'm not into men so I'm not necessarily the best judge but is the dude who plays Edward supposed to be attractive? I think he's ugly as fuck. His face is like, malformed or something.
Since MovieBob is an Avatar of Truth to you all, I'm anxious to know what kind of morally restrained gender-equal balanced videogames praising nonviolence, civiliziational values and the pursuit of peace in an orderly manner are you people playing.
The Sims?
Or fallout 3?
 

ldwater

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Jun 15, 2009
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Empowering women is a fine thing to do which most (modern) men wouldn't have a problem with at all. I really enjoyed Buffy and Angel because of the empowerment that buffy had (ie, being uber strong and saving the world on a number of occasions) but still showing that it doesn't pay the bills (in that season where Buffy has to get a job).

My problem with Twilight is that this empowerment of women (the reader) or woman (Bella) comes across as manipulative and selfish because of the way she uses that power - the series is almost DESIGNED to give the reader that power and let them be lost in their own fantasy to prevent them from looking into the situation further than just emotional gratification.

Lets take a look at the start of the series: plain jane arrives in town. Her parents are split up, she lives a simple (ie, not poor but not well off either) life with her father and she has no real skills, talents, abilities or anything else that elevates her above any other human in the universe. Therefore she is powerless.

Power is then thrust upon her by Edward - but she does nothing to deserve this power and seems to have it thrust upon her, its almost at random.

She then uses this power through the first 3 films to manipulate both Edward and Jacob to her whim. In the 2nd one she feels all alone and needs a buddy, so she goes to Jacob for a pick me up and he does everything he can to make her feel better - but the WHOLE TIME she is with Jacob she is still thinking of Edward.

She is basically the worlds biggest cock tease. And with that she HAS power.

Even though Bella is more into Edward than Jacob she never really gives him any clear seperation, so again she is giving him enough 'hope' to keep him interested and manipulatable. In eclipse she is the focus of a vampire army and at the point where Jacob is about to say "Screw this" she pulls out "I love you" on him and convinces him to not only sacrifice his life, but the lives of his wolf buddies as well. All of the time she has already made up her mind. I know they say "You can love 2 people" but only a selfish ***** of a woman would lead both of them on in order to coerse them into fighting for her.

But why wont she go with Jacob? Because she wouldn't GAIN any power.
Lets face it - he (and his native american friends) represent the 'good' faction of the story. They are humble, friendly, honest, caring, hard working - everything that is to make you feel warm and fuzzy. The other fact is that they are POOR. They all live in one mud hut, they probably don't work or only work simple jobs for low pay, they probably eat off the land and sing songs around a camp fire without hot running water or a TV.
If she went with Jacob what would really happen? She couldn't be 'turned' into a wolf and eventually she would just be 'plain jane' but with some dogs around her. She wouldn't have any power to impose her will, she wouldn't have anything special about her and would have to life a very simple, rough, poor and hard life before she dies.

Now, lets look at the Cullens: Rich, opulent, sofisticated and immortal. Power in almost every sence of the word. Even if her and Edward broke up after a few hundred years together she would still have super strength, super speed, money and imortality. The fact that she is more willing that he is to jump Edwards bones is probably more about convincing him to bite her than it is about him trying to save her soul etc.

So yes - Twilight shows that if you don't have power you should try to take it and use it to your own gain. The appeal to alot of people in the books is that all this attention to Bella is completely undeserved and all the power she is being given is almost as if she got the golden ticket for the chocolate factory - she didn't WORK for it, she didn't EARN it yet she has armies fighting over her, has 2 hunky guys willing to fight and die for / over her and all she has to do is give them a little affection and they fall about themselves.

Unfortunatly though I won't be explaining all this to my wife who loves Twilight :p
 

Superior Mind

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Feb 9, 2009
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Yesterday a 23 year-old man from my town was found dead in the cinema after watching Twilight Eclipse.

I am not kidding. [http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3885798/Man-found-dead-after-Twilight-screening-in-Wellington]

Whether it's full dedication to giving the film a negative review or just proof of how truly awful it is, (I mean it can cause people to die just by watching it! Fuck it doesn't even give you the seven days!) I think it's safe to say that none of us here would wish that fate on anyone.

So yeah. Twilight. Scary in ways you don't expect.

Notice the cops said that the death isn't being treated as suspicious? It's like they expect this kind of thing to happen to people who watch Twilight! Holy Hell...
 

Gigano

Whose Eyes Are Those Eyes?
Oct 15, 2009
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MovieBob said:
The Problem With Twilight

It's more than just bad moviemaking.

Read Full Article

A very good analysis of some of the problematic "values" which apparently underscores the Twilight series in some less overt ways. I doubt that many young girls will take it up on those values though, even if they do love the series. They, or at least a vast majority amongst them, should be quite capable of distinguishing dreamy fun from actual reality.

To take another - and immensely better - franchise, Lord of the Rings basicly argued for a monarchy where some king(s) should wield all power to save humanity, with any societal problems being relegated to sorcerous advicers and broken bloodlines, and in a black/white conflict set up against a completely dehumanized enemy against which violence was the only answer; these highly anti-democratic and anti-diplomatic sentiments, as well as it being religiously inspired to some extent, didn't stop me from enjoying it immensely, but I certainly didn't take any of those "values" to heart in the slightest, and neither did the vast majority of other viewers.

Avatar pulled a pretty similar stunt. Those native navi tribes were apparently structured as part monarchy, part theocracy, and god knows what they'd have done with any liberal dissenters on the total tribal unity presented to us as unproblematic. And yet it made a pretty passable movie to dream away to - if not offering any kind of political values worthy of a civilized democratic society.

If we've seen those movies (and many like them), and not turned into a rageing royalist, then Twilight probably isn't going to turn any significant amount amongst these young girls into chaste domestic abuse victims either, however it might subconsciously like to. And the few it might do stick with were probably so impressionable that some other figment of reality would have messed them up eventually.

To restate, I agree completely that the views presented in the series (and many other franchises, including some I personally enjoy) are problematic and backwards, but I doubt they'll have any noticeable effect, even on teenage girls, in the way they behave outside the dream. Or so I hope...