The Quota

[FancyNick]

I enjoyed that a lot, thanks guys

 

[Cledos Closed]

DOTA is for elite and LOL for fifthly casul ahh..I love the smell of flame war in the morning. Joke asides, as a gamer who played dota 1 thoroughly, I think last hit is, indeed, one of the most important skill; arguably next to lane control and deny.

 

[Deathfish15]

Those rules actually harken back to about every MMO ever, 5 years ago. MMOs now have evolved a bit in their loot distribution thankfully so "last hit" only applies to MOBAs, where I'm sure the intent is to make them more competitive. Griefing is just another aspect of competition after all.

It does make it more hardcore. Take for example DOTA 2, in which you can kill your own creeps and basically "deny" the enemy the coin. This is a tactic used by the high-end players to starve the enemy lane and get a stronger push for mid to late game.


And yes, this is DOTA 2, although the characters do look similar to Ash and either Kah'Zix or Nocturne of LoL. But, seeing as how LoL only came out after the original DoTA (and had developers who worked on the original DOTA), I see no surprise in that.

 

[The_State]

Someone's gonna have a real good day when they kill that melee creep. Creep is too squishy for rapier.

 

[Double A]

The only reason I got this joke is because I read Nerf Now, and I only started reading that because TF2.

 

[ThreeWords]

That's one of the simple rules of DOTA that turned me off. Why can't I just get gold if I hit the creep the most? The last hit thing is bullshit.

I agree; it's really stupid how they use game mechanics to promote a need for tactics, timing and understanding of whats going on around the character. Totally unnecessary, especially since it rewards skilled players, who are clearly not the target audience in a gaming genre that is in the process of turning into sport.

 

[Tiamattt]

The only reason I got this joke is because I read Nerf Now, and I only started reading that because TF2.

Yeah that's why I got into nerfnow too, sadly enough all the LOL/Dota jokes flies over my head and I have to get my friends that play those games explain the jokes to me.

 

[Candidus]

This thread, hahahaha... The incredulity over last-hitting being a thing is particularly good. The annoyance with denial is typical of the LoL crowd and just makes me roll my eyes- guess we'll agree to disagree.

The absolutely hilarious thread it created aside, I did actually like the comic guys!

 

[Lunar Templar]

horrifying snip

you ... changed it o.0 what madness is this ...

+1 "This joke had to be explained to me."

also ^ this. Don't play Moda's so yeah, missed it part where it was funny till it was explained

 

[scott91575]

Looking at this strip and the comments I feel like such a scrub. Y'all are speaking another language. I'm clearly not a real gamer!

I'm not a real gamer too in that case. Let's hide in our MOBA-proof bunker together, away from such terms as "carry" and "ward".

Presumably, if you actually let two exactly equal minions fight, they'd kill each other at exactly the same time.

Can't remember how it was in LoL, but in Dota 2 one wave will come out on top (at least initially). I can't remember if anyone has actually tested to see if without any outside influence one team of creeps continuously wins over another, since the games would go hours, but at the start of the game the two don't just meet in the middle and kill each other simultaneously. This is probably due to differences in how hitting works (I think damage is applied over a range), and later terrain bonuses.

All attacks have RNG. For Dota 2, melee creeps hit between 19-23 and the ranged creep 21-26. So the lucky side will have a creep left over (it's never the same side, it all depends on RNG). That will lead to momentum for that side (that left over creep will get some damage on the next enemy wave putting that at a disadvantage when meeting the next wave and the momentum continues to build). Eventually the creeps meet a tower and that will reverse the momentum.

If no heroes ever enter the lane the creeps will eventually take towers. It takes a really long time, but the creeps don't just continually meet up and die at the same time.

 

[scott91575]

To the topic at hand, last hitting and denying are important tactics which can lead to more advanced tactics such as lane control, not just denying the other team gold and exp. If it's not for you, ok, don't play the game. Yet I personally think it adds complexity and differentiates the skill between players. Without them the early game would be pretty stupid and pointless.

 

[personion]

>Make comic about game
People complain that they don't understand game
>Make comic not about game
People complain about lack of game comics
>Make comic about game everyone knows
People complain about lack of originality

It was a good comic, though.

 

[UltimatheChosen]

That's one of the simple rules of DOTA that turned me off. Why can't I just get gold if I hit the creep the most? The last hit thing is bullshit.

Proper last hitting takes skill, just auto attacking doesn't.

The fact that something takes skill does not mean it adds to the gameplay. It would also take skill if you were required to run a partial circle of exactly 270 degrees around every enemy before they could die, but it still wouldn't be good design.

Also, without the need to last hit, denying wouldn't have any purpose.
As it is now, denying will deny the enemy 100% of the gold they could have gotten and 50-75% of the experience.

Denying is also an idiotic game mechanic. It should have been nixed when the bug that allowed it first popped up back in DotA, rather than becoming a supported part of the core gameplay.

Okay, lets say we remove last hitting and denying.
What is actually left for early game to do?

What is the option to prevent an enemy carry from getting fed?

Removing those elements won't add anything useful to the game. It will only make the slow early game even slower.
Some heroes have slow projectiles and long attack animations because that balances them out. They have other strong skills.

If we removed that aspect, IceForg would have to nerf those strong parts because they would be overpowered. Doing so will remove quite a big of uniqueness to those heroes. All heroes will be similar, which is a bad thing.

With last hitting and denying in place, we can have heroes that go from extreme to extreme. Extremely bad at last hitting but can become extremely good if they do get the last hits.

Also, denying wasn't a bug. Denying was option even in Warcraft 3. The only bugs about denying where about the moment when you could deny them. Not from 100% but from 50%, tower from 10%. And that changed a bit over the time, but it was never purely a bug.

Last hitting and denying add 2 strategical layer to the game and the time when it's needed the most. Without them, the game loses a part what makes it the game it is. Removing them would make the game less competitive and the early game would be boring to watch. It would also heavily unbalance the support/ganker/carry roles and would merge them in one role where pretty much everyone is similar in those roles.

I understand that you don't like those mechanics, but saying those are idiotic mechanics is an insult to the millions of user that do like it.

I didn't say that removing them entirely wouldn't cause balance issues. In any game, if a core mechanic is fundamentally flawed, it takes a lot of redesign to fix things. But saying "oh, you'd need to change other stuff as well" doesn't mean that the original decision was good.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

-snip-

I didn't say that removing them entirely wouldn't cause balance issues. In any game, if a core mechanic is fundamentally flawed, it takes a lot of redesign to fix things. But saying "oh, you'd need to change other stuff as well" doesn't mean that the original decision was good.

Could you elaborate how last hitting and denying are fundamentally flawed mechanics?
I'm really curious about your way of thinking here because I don't see any flaws with them when used in ARTS.

 

[DaViller]

These creeps would be more usefull then a lot of players actually.

 

[Akisa]

How does Radiant have Mega creeps in 10 minutes? If so why don't they just push to end the game?

 

[Lyri]

I didn't say that removing them entirely wouldn't cause balance issues. In any game, if a core mechanic is fundamentally flawed, it takes a lot of redesign to fix things. But saying "oh, you'd need to change other stuff as well" doesn't mean that the original decision was good.

I'm not sure if I can take you seriously having read your posts, try explaining your point in a manner longer than 3 sentences.
Frankly, I have no idea where you are coming from with this idea.

 

[scott91575]

That's one of the simple rules of DOTA that turned me off. Why can't I just get gold if I hit the creep the most? The last hit thing is bullshit.

Proper last hitting takes skill, just auto attacking doesn't.

The fact that something takes skill does not mean it adds to the gameplay. It would also take skill if you were required to run a partial circle of exactly 270 degrees around every enemy before they could die, but it still wouldn't be good design.

Also, without the need to last hit, denying wouldn't have any purpose.
As it is now, denying will deny the enemy 100% of the gold they could have gotten and 50-75% of the experience.

Denying is also an idiotic game mechanic. It should have been nixed when the bug that allowed it first popped up back in DotA, rather than becoming a supported part of the core gameplay.

Okay, lets say we remove last hitting and denying.
What is actually left for early game to do?

What is the option to prevent an enemy carry from getting fed?

Removing those elements won't add anything useful to the game. It will only make the slow early game even slower.
Some heroes have slow projectiles and long attack animations because that balances them out. They have other strong skills.

If we removed that aspect, IceForg would have to nerf those strong parts because they would be overpowered. Doing so will remove quite a big of uniqueness to those heroes. All heroes will be similar, which is a bad thing.

With last hitting and denying in place, we can have heroes that go from extreme to extreme. Extremely bad at last hitting but can become extremely good if they do get the last hits.

Also, denying wasn't a bug. Denying was option even in Warcraft 3. The only bugs about denying where about the moment when you could deny them. Not from 100% but from 50%, tower from 10%. And that changed a bit over the time, but it was never purely a bug.

Last hitting and denying add 2 strategical layer to the game and the time when it's needed the most. Without them, the game loses a part what makes it the game it is. Removing them would make the game less competitive and the early game would be boring to watch. It would also heavily unbalance the support/ganker/carry roles and would merge them in one role where pretty much everyone is similar in those roles.

I understand that you don't like those mechanics, but saying those are idiotic mechanics is an insult to the millions of user that do like it.

I didn't say that removing them entirely wouldn't cause balance issues. In any game, if a core mechanic is fundamentally flawed, it takes a lot of redesign to fix things. But saying "oh, you'd need to change other stuff as well" doesn't mean that the original decision was good.

The mechanic is not flawed. You just don't like. We understand that. My suggestion is for you to not play the game, move on, and stop belaboring a meaningless point.

 

[prpshrt]

LOL. Thanks for that. Need more dota strips