Anonymous: Thank you for setting out so clearly the difference between "offended" and "hurt". I was moved by your story. I wish I had the courage to share mine.
The R Word
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Well, to be perfectly fair you're overgeneralizing feminism. The feminists who fight so that women get paid equal wages for equal work shouldn't be lumped into the same group as those who try to scandalize things in the media by talking about 'objectification'.Therumancer said:
Whether you agree with it or not, there's a huge difference between fighting something as concrete as a discrepancy in pay between two people who have the same job and the same hours by trying to get certain pieces of legislation passed, and fighting a vague cultural war in which the ultimate goal is to change people's "perceptions" or "prejudices". Not only are the goals of the latter enterprise vague, but the effects of the things that they are trying to combat are hardly proven.
(In case it isn't obvious, I support the former, but am cynical of the latter. I, for one, wouldn't allow my daughters, if I had any, to spend too much of their time playing dress-up or doing other things that might make them think that their worth lies in their appearance. I also wouldn't enter into a relationship in which I didn't consider my partner an intellectual equal. However, I can't help but feel that the constant complaints about pop-culture are both counter-productive and silly. A woman who was raised properly isn't going to be a slave to the images in the media. The real thing at fault is bad parenting.)
As far as the double standard goes, I can hardly speak for these people, but I imagine quite a few of them would argue that romance novels are as just as bad as their male equivalents. Others might argue that it isn't the same for men as it is for women because of the entrenched patriarchy. I won't defend or even suppose that I am presenting these arguments successfully. But I do think you're overgeneralizing a bit.
I believe that the point of the article is that words carry weight. I've only read the first 40 comments, but a few seem to be getting caught up with the word 'rape' itself. We have to realize that words that we say casually could actually hold more meaning than we know.
A while back someone called me a Nazi because I was being strict with my sister. While I understood that he wasn't accusing me of following Hitler, I was still taken aback by the comment because of how strong the word still is, even 70+ years later.
There are many words that we as a society use too frivolously. There are some words that should carry weight behind their meaning. Rape, in my opinion, should be one of them. I don't think that it is being said that you should never say these words. Just put some thought into what you are saying before saying them.
A while back someone called me a Nazi because I was being strict with my sister. While I understood that he wasn't accusing me of following Hitler, I was still taken aback by the comment because of how strong the word still is, even 70+ years later.
There are many words that we as a society use too frivolously. There are some words that should carry weight behind their meaning. Rape, in my opinion, should be one of them. I don't think that it is being said that you should never say these words. Just put some thought into what you are saying before saying them.
Iron Lightning said:
Dude...the fuck?
I was never raped, and hopefully I never will be. You were. You know how painful, how traumatizing it is. Why in the FUCK would you rip on this guy, or call him a coward? he made it clear that rape isn't something to "overcome" or a challenge you can grow from. its something you carry with you for the rest of you're life. clearly the two of you disagree, because you seem to think it's just another part of life, or something you can "roll with"
Im really happy that you no longer suffer from trauma or fears, but for christ's sake, have some sympathy for the guy. as someone who suffered as you did, try and understand, like I, and everyone else is.
OT: I can't say anything that hasn't already been said, other then thank's for pouring you're soul into this article, and I hope you can live the best life you can. you deserve it.
Edit: Okay, so, I should have probably read the ENTIRE 16 pages of comments before commenting myself. sorry about that.
You and me both.Entenzahn said:
I mean, really? Imrix literally said that victims of child abuse, battery, and torture only nearly suffered a bad fate.
The only way to know if rape really is worse than other horrors is to conduct a study of people who've undergone various traumas including rape, and have them rank them. Otherwise it's purely subjective and not even worth suggesting. (And even that would be shaky.)
So, for the love of God, do not try to tell me that attempted murder and other traumas are not as bad as rape. I'd rather be raped than stabbed repeatedly in non-vital areas, and perhaps you feel differently, but either way, there's no way to objectively scale the horror, so we shouldn't try to say one is worse than another.
We either treat them the same or we do not expect others to have our sensibilities.
I'm little peeved with the one line where you agree that using a word normalizes it and then completely dropping that point on the ground of "complicating the argument", but overall, good piece.
While you HAVE somewhat convinced me not to use certain words unless I know a person implicitly, I feel the need to get something out.
Deleting or censoring something in the name of possibly hurting someone who reads/hears it is generally a bad idea. Refrain when possible? Okay. Fine. But I won't think about every word I say and consider any way it could offend someone.
EVERY word could be offensive to someone. Every word could make them think of a horrible experience. Murder? Yep. Kill? Yep. Beat? Defeat? Kicked? All of those. You can't possibly predict it. While as I said before, you can refrain, deleting every entry on a website or expunging an action/word from culture is NOT the right thing to do.
Also, while I feel massive sympathy for you and what you went through, I think it's a bit naive to say that EVERYONE who has had something similar happen is in an identical emotional state to you. Just saying.
Fuck, The Escapist has gotten [i/]weird[/i] recently...
While you HAVE somewhat convinced me not to use certain words unless I know a person implicitly, I feel the need to get something out.
Deleting or censoring something in the name of possibly hurting someone who reads/hears it is generally a bad idea. Refrain when possible? Okay. Fine. But I won't think about every word I say and consider any way it could offend someone.
EVERY word could be offensive to someone. Every word could make them think of a horrible experience. Murder? Yep. Kill? Yep. Beat? Defeat? Kicked? All of those. You can't possibly predict it. While as I said before, you can refrain, deleting every entry on a website or expunging an action/word from culture is NOT the right thing to do.
Also, while I feel massive sympathy for you and what you went through, I think it's a bit naive to say that EVERYONE who has had something similar happen is in an identical emotional state to you. Just saying.
Fuck, The Escapist has gotten [i/]weird[/i] recently...
Thank you so much for speaking up about this. I really hope you can find some solace one day. I've had someone very dear to me confide that she had been assaulted by a person we both trusted as a big brother figure when we were little. I can never get over that soiled feeling my childhood memories bring. The memory of a boy I grew up with and trusted enough to sleep in his bed when I was scared of what another boy might do to me, is now a monster who had been the very one abusing our younger friend. She said nothing about it at the time, and I cannot imagine how hellish the experience must have been for her, and every time he came to visit us having to look him in the eye and smile like everything was ok. Rape is not a subject I ever joke about and I have never been comfortable using it lightly in games and chats, but I never told anyone off for using it either, even though it makes me really uncomfortable, all for fear of being labeled a prude. Letting people know just how terrible it is to use the word so lightly is something everyone needs to start doing; the context it's used in during games glorifies the person doing the raping and portrays the victim as being responsible for their assault for not being strong enough. This is not ok. Everyone who uses the word needs to realize that victims are not just people on the News; they are our neighbors, friends, and family. Those who are afraid to let anyone know about their experience don't need that word thrown around in a way that makes them feel weak when they are already dealing with so much. Thank you.
Erm... it's kind of ironic that you asked the guy to have sympathy and at the same time criticized him for his emotional response. It's understandable that he gets pissed off when he sees in others the destructive weakness that he had to overcome himself. His criticism may seem harsh to us, but it is clearly aimed at helping that guy. I doubt you or I could possibly understand what either person went through, and I'm fairly certain we don't have a place in the conversation of how to deal with it. Plus, he apologized for the apparent insensitivity of his argument at the outset.Kelethor said:
Even worse than the questionable methods in such a study is the fact that said study would be horrendously demeaning and trivializing. I mean for FUCK'S SAKE, whatever difference there might be between the suffering incurred by torture and rape is made meaningless by the sheer order of magnitude of difference between these things and other life events. We don't need to fucking rank them. It isn't a goddamn competition.macfluffers said:
Yeah...to be completely honest, I didn't read every page of comments after reading the article (and didn't see the apology come up) and so when I first read Iron Lightning's post I was a little...excited. I did go back and edit my post. so hopefully that will clear things up.ReiverCorrupter said:
Er, no. It's true that certain words will be hurtful to other people, based on their past experiences. But rape is used out of context. When you beat someone in a video game, they are defeated. It is equivalent to getting kicked, beaten. Virtually, their character died, ie: murdered or killed.MrDeckard said:
But raped? No. Because the map resets, and everything is hunky dory. Rape implies psychological damage.
And isn't it kind of naive to assume that his statement is false if you've never been raped? Just saying. I've met numerous people who can say "Yeah, I was mugged last week," or "some guy was pointing a gun at me." These events were terrifying, but they eventually learned to move on. However, I have NEVER met someone who was willing to say "I was raped earlier in my life."
Also, he isn't calling for censorship. Just respect. We have to use the word rape to convey the associated meaning. But just because we can use the word, doesn't mean we have to throw it out after every CoD match.
I agree with Iron Lightning. Part of growing up is to take all of these things that happen to you and grow past them. Bad things happen. We have to accept them and move on. Even more, I have to ask everyone something. Stop having pity for us or anyone who has gone through this. Yes, it is terrible to happen. But we do not deserve any special treatment for the short comings in our lives. People are strong to move past this. Allow us to without thinking we are broken, or that we will suffer forever.Kelethor said:
Mahatma Gandhi once said that: "Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will." People cannot build that will when they are given special treatment, or pity, or feel that we need to be picked up or even understood -just- because something happened to us. If you think about it, the average person looks at someone who has been raped like a broken mirror, that with enough tender love and care, it can be fixed. That's just not true. And in treating people who have been raped as such, you are not doing them a favor. But rather an injustice.
I do not expect free money to come to me because I am of african american blood and my ancestors were treated harshly. I expect to work for my money and rewards. I do not ask for free money for college because I am 1/16th native american and some have had their land stolen. And I do not ask to be treated like a hero because I have been to war, fought, and nearly died for whatever purpose it truly may have been, I simply ask to be treated like you--yourself would wish to be treated. Without exception, with fairness, and goodwill.
I, and many like myself are strong enough to move past the dark parts in our lives and see the light. (And no, that is not a religious statement) But people must allow others--like the Author of the article--to move past this, rather than bellow in his misery.
Rape is a word. That is all it is. Just like many other words that are hateful like a word that starts with "N". Or "S." Any you can think of. It's the action, not the word that we should be against.
Holy crap. I just. Mind blown. I am so sorry to you and anyone else who may have had an experience even remotely close to this. I'm sorry that those things happened and I'm sorry for each and every time that I used that word in an inappropriate context.
Whoever you are, you just became a new personal hero of mine. Thank you.
Whoever you are, you just became a new personal hero of mine. Thank you.
Well, I'd say that the majority of the arguments in this thread are based upon a confusion: one side thinks the other side is claiming that it's perfectly alright to use the term 'rape' on a moral level. The other side thinks that those who are criticizing the use of the term 'rape' are actually trying to get it banned. They're both arguing against a straw-man, but the emotional nature of the topic keeps them from realizing that their opponent isn't making the claim that they think they are making.Mike Kayatta said:
Obviously, there are some people who actually are taking those extreme positions, but I'm pretty sure they're the minority. Some of these people end up arguing that use of the term 'rape' is morally acceptable because they are pushed into that position by their efforts to make the exact opposite claims as their adversaries, and they would probably reject their own arguments if they thought about them objectively. They're probably only making those arguments because they're afraid that their free speech is being threatened. (Offensive though that speech may be.)
So there you go: that's the formula for the vast majority of forum debates.
As far as my own position is concerned, I think it's obvious that anyone who casually throws the term around is an ass. I also don't think it's a violation of one's right to free speech for these companies to ban such terms; access to their service is a privilege, not a right.
But at the same time I'm not sure that the situation calls for any additional censorship considering most of these online services already give you the ability to report people for foul language and preemptively block communications. (Though I am not saying that the author or anyone else is actually suggesting that additional steps need to be taken.)
The companies aren't responsible for what the users of the service say, and they only censor people so that they don't lose customers. They aren't really under any obligation to take additional steps. While the people who use such terms are clearly in the wrong and should stop doing what they're doing out of common courtesy, someone who finds these terms offensive/harmful cannot complain that additional steps need to be taken if they do not first utilize what is already there.
Anyone who is offended by these terms but refuses to exit game-chat on Xbox Live must be a glutton for punishment. If people start saying these things and it offends you, then either report them, mute them, or both. They generally need proof that the person said what you are accusing them of saying. If just one report was enough to ban someone, then the asshole inhabitants of Xbox Live would start reporting everyone that pissed them off. The cost of hiring the Orwellian system of monitors necessary to make sure that everyone gets banned after the first offense would be ludicrous. There just isn't any way for Microsoft to preemptively make sure you don't hear the term other than allowing you to block all communications as a whole. (Once again, I am just arguing a general point and I am not attributing the position I am arguing against to anyone in particular.)
But in regards to the article itself, I have no problem with someone explaining why the term is harmful. (I agree with the author's point in that the term is clearly capable of being harmful to individuals who have been traumatized, though I am a bit more skeptical of any claim that the careless use of the term actually contributes to more incidents of rape in a statistically relevant way.)
Those were some powerful sentiments you expressed there. I'm not going to go into the nature of rape itself, but I think your overall point is spot-on. I'm all for having compassion for people, but treating them like a victim will probably only perpetuate their feeling of victimization.Ramzal said:
There's a difference between compassion and pity. The former is the bedrock of all morality. The latter is something no one wants or asks for. Compassion is automatic, it's what people feel when they rush to the aid of others. Pity is the result of an over-intellectualized reflection upon the difference between your situation and that of the other person. One is expressed through action, the other through empty words. One regards only the needs of the other person, the other regards the needs of one's own ego.
Trying to imagine what another person is feeling doesn't make you a good person. Acting to help that person does.
God lately things have been really really depressing...and really focused on rape...Not something I really want to have a serious week long discussion about. Suppose nothing like this is ever fun to talk about.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/21/us-more-men-raped-than-womenDarkmantle said:
Hmm...I don't really have anything else to add beyond this. [But it looks like I added quite a bit in retrospect]. Just wanted to note the URL and that still you'll find the vast majority of posts in here probably assuming the author is a woman.
I personally had some unfortunate events transpire in my youth with a baby sitter. It >may< be why I don't treat sexuality as anything special. Nobody ever found out so nobody was there to tell me something terrible had happened. Just was something that transpired and I think back on it similar to how you might think back to having a sandwich. No real emotional attachment.
Anywho, nothing else to add. Touchy subject and one of those things where folks who have no idea are more than happy to be extremely aggressive and defensive about the topic.
I'm not sure its really something you brag about. The US is big on violence so people like to tell stories of how they survived a violent encounter.Prosis said:
We are mortified of sexuality, likely for various cultural and religious reasons, so its a topic that is far past discussion and when its a negative sexual incident its something that tarnishes a persons image even though they are the victim.
You could say Rape in any fashion you wished and flop that word around like it has no meaning. It wouldn't hurt my feelings or bring up any thoughts.
There is danger in giving words power and the use of words does not signify any character traits by itself.
I've also got a friend who I had to coach through Rape when she was assaulted during a party. We would find ourselves a year or so later playing Halo and her saying she had Raped me.
Does that mean she didn't take the incident seriously? Most certainly not, for her it was horrifying and I had never seen her in a darker place. Perhaps making the word meaningless was a way for her to cope with the ordeal.
Judge the intention of the words, not the words themselves.
Great article. One thing, though. Why should we stop at rape? We should stop using all bad words altogether because deep inside, we're all autistic and don't understand context.
"I killed you"? No, some people have had family members killed and this is a sensitive issue for them. We don't want to be complacent with murder culture, now do we?
Or "cocksucker". Some people like to "suck cock" so why should that be used as an insult?
Or "your mom" jokes. Some people don't have mothers and this is a very sensitive issue for them.
Or using the word "retard". Some people have retarded family members, friends or are themselves retarded and they don't take this word lightly. I can only give my greatest compliments to The Escapist for being very progressive and giving me a suspension for using that awful world. It has made me a much more socially aware citizen and a much better person. I have gained new insight into life and my horizons have broadened.
Holy fucknugget, there's so many things we could censor. Just think of the possibilities!
The world will be a lot better place if we simple use only politically correct words and phrases because a kitten dies every time some poor princess gets insulted over the internet of all places.
This can also lead to all sorts of wonderful strawman arguments like "So are you saying rape victims are worth more than motherless children?", etc.
...
Censorship is a slippery slope and it's something I will always fight against.
Sure, dude, if I know you're a rape victim, I won't bang it against your head as I'm not an idiot. However, anyone telling me it's wrong to make rape jokes with my friends (it's not really what we do, but I'm trying to prove a point) can rightfully gtfo. It's my right, I'm not hurting anyone and it doesn't mean I glorify rape. I love racist jokes (both ways), I love sexist jokes (both ways), I love jokes about crippled people. I even joked about my grandmother when she died. When I'm gonna be dying, I'll joke about that too and encourage others to have a laugh at it. Either everything goes or nothing goes. Everyone who is ok with murder, but isn't with rape is an imbecile. Denial and censorship won't make either go away.
I honestly hate this politically correct age where you aren't allowed to think and express yourself the way you want to.
Edit
Applause to Iron Lightning.
I admire people like you.
"I killed you"? No, some people have had family members killed and this is a sensitive issue for them. We don't want to be complacent with murder culture, now do we?
Or "cocksucker". Some people like to "suck cock" so why should that be used as an insult?
Or "your mom" jokes. Some people don't have mothers and this is a very sensitive issue for them.
Or using the word "retard". Some people have retarded family members, friends or are themselves retarded and they don't take this word lightly. I can only give my greatest compliments to The Escapist for being very progressive and giving me a suspension for using that awful world. It has made me a much more socially aware citizen and a much better person. I have gained new insight into life and my horizons have broadened.
Holy fucknugget, there's so many things we could censor. Just think of the possibilities!
The world will be a lot better place if we simple use only politically correct words and phrases because a kitten dies every time some poor princess gets insulted over the internet of all places.
This can also lead to all sorts of wonderful strawman arguments like "So are you saying rape victims are worth more than motherless children?", etc.
...
Censorship is a slippery slope and it's something I will always fight against.
Sure, dude, if I know you're a rape victim, I won't bang it against your head as I'm not an idiot. However, anyone telling me it's wrong to make rape jokes with my friends (it's not really what we do, but I'm trying to prove a point) can rightfully gtfo. It's my right, I'm not hurting anyone and it doesn't mean I glorify rape. I love racist jokes (both ways), I love sexist jokes (both ways), I love jokes about crippled people. I even joked about my grandmother when she died. When I'm gonna be dying, I'll joke about that too and encourage others to have a laugh at it. Either everything goes or nothing goes. Everyone who is ok with murder, but isn't with rape is an imbecile. Denial and censorship won't make either go away.
I honestly hate this politically correct age where you aren't allowed to think and express yourself the way you want to.
Edit
Applause to Iron Lightning.
I admire people like you.
He's not saying censor the word, he's not saying censor things that contain it.Babitz said:
He's saying that people need to understand how it affects people, and that it shouldn't be thrown around for trivial purposes.
If you kill someone in an online game, that is not "raping" them. It's okay to use it to mean rape, but when you throw it around to mean destruction, domination... it's wrong.
Using the term "******" doesn't hurt gay people. Sure, it's not a nice thing to say, and you come across as a homophobic twat, but it doesn't hurt like rape does.
The author is pointing out the severity of rape and that it's not to be treated lightly, not to be used for pointless character development, but only for things that warrant it.
The author is not asking for censorship, more... consideration.
Why stop at that?Fluffles said:
Why don't we also take races, people whose closest have been murdered, homosexuals, the crippled, retarded, etc., also into consideration?
Like I said, it's a slippery slope.
Why shouldn't it be thrown around for trivial purposes and murder should? Everyone knows what they mean and no one in their right mind thinks they're glorifying rape or murder with that.
If you do get hurt by that then I'm sorry, you should probably lock yourself up somewhere until you solve your problems and are ready to get integrated back into society.
Also, saying "******" doesn't make you homophobic and neither does saying "nigga" make you racist.