The Shattered Elden Ring Thread: Tarnished Edition - (Shadow of the Erdtree p. 85)

09philj

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 31, 2015
2,154
948
118
I know that ranged with summons is not a viable approach for a lot of bosses (contrary to what some people claim)
I beat every boss that I fought like this.
Admittedly I was a very high level by the time I beat the final boss, and the viability does depend on what spells you're packing, and there were a lot of bosses that could kill me in one or two hits. (Opaline Bubbletear came in very handy)

I also don't think I would have beaten Fire Giant without using a guide to follow the steps to make Alexander available as a summon.
 

hanselthecaretaker

My flask is half full
Legacy
Nov 18, 2010
8,738
5,905
118
Again, we're sympatico on this one.

But I don't think they've ALWAYS had achievements with DLC. Darks Souls 3 I'm pretty sure did not have them. I never played DS3 DLC and I have that 100%. Though that is not the reason I didn't play that DLC, I was just burned out on the series by the time I completed the game and I heard those DLCs were even super-harded and I had had enough.

But for sure Bloodborne Old Hunters DLC has trophies.

Anyway, like everybody else I was expected DLC and I was planning to ignore it because of my mixed reaction to the game but then I decided to start another run so.... I dunno.

As for my current run, I defeated Godrick. I dunno what the heck I'm doing exactly with this build, I just decided to go for black flame stuff and my god I forgot how hard it is to upgrade in this stupid game lol.
Though once I finally did get that stuff, I defeated Godrick and the lion knight thing in that other castles by summoning something and hurling black flame balls at them, each on the second attempt. I know that ranged with summons is not a viable approach for a lot of bosses (contrary to what some people claim) but I'll go with it for now.

I'm at level 45 with 16 each and STR and DEX and 27 FTH. This was in order to use the Godslayer seal and the Winged Scythe. The latter, unfortunately is proving a dud- I keep trying to use scythes in these games and I can never make it work. But they look so cool! But swords are the only weapon I feel comfortable with in these stupid games ever (except I maces in DS2 and twinblades in DS2 and this game).

You know what? ER reminds me a lot of DS2 sometimes. It's just so weird to me that people crap on DS2 but think ER is the 2nd coming. They're both extremely flawed and wacky variations of the brilliant Dark Souls and my enjoyment is based on my mood. Like Back to the Future 3.
It would make sense, seeing as DS2’s director also co-directed ER.

Guessing Miyazaki had final say on stuff like Volcano Manor though. :)
 

Old_Hunter_77

Elite Member
Dec 29, 2021
1,766
1,610
118
Country
United States
I beat every boss that I fought like this.
Admittedly I was a very high level by the time I beat the final boss, and the viability does depend on what spells you're packing, and there were a lot of bosses that could kill me in one or two hits. (Opaline Bubbletear came in very handy)

I also don't think I would have beaten Fire Giant without using a guide to follow the steps to make Alexander available as a summon.
Evergaols don't allow summons. I guess you didn't do any of those?
 

09philj

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 31, 2015
2,154
948
118
Evergaols don't allow summons. I guess you didn't do any of those?
Oh I just killed them with sorcery.

I got a lot of use out of the spell Magic Glintblade, which fires from the spot you cast it after a delay. Faster AI opponents are usually rather good at dodging sorceries because they read your inputs and dodge as you cast. Magic Glintblade's delayed projectile makes their input reading worthless, making it hit very reliably. (It's also great on horseback because you don't have to be facing your target to cast effectively.)
 

sXeth

Elite Member
Legacy
Nov 15, 2012
3,301
675
118
Flame Sling/Black Flame in particular have a lot closer range requirement then Sorceries.

(also they seem to be the two biggest input reads in the game, you can literally make enemies try and attack you through a wall by casting one. I actually found it useful to do this in co-op to get heat off a Sorceror lol)
 

Old_Hunter_77

Elite Member
Dec 29, 2021
1,766
1,610
118
Country
United States
Flame Sling/Black Flame in particular have a lot closer range requirement then Sorceries.

(also they seem to be the two biggest input reads in the game, you can literally make enemies try and attack you through a wall by casting one. I actually found it useful to do this in co-op to get heat off a Sorceror lol)
That's fine.. I've never found pure/mostly range play viable in these games, especially ER. It's just too fast. Thing just fly at you from a mile away.
I watch these build guides and videos about like, oh this casting time isn't that long-- I do like the video, and while my character is waving around 12 things murder me. I just don't see time and speed that way experts do. At the end of the day, these games are always gonna be about dodging wildly until you land a lucky hit with a sword, and do that a jillion times.
 

hanselthecaretaker

My flask is half full
Legacy
Nov 18, 2010
8,738
5,905
118
That's fine.. I've never found pure/mostly range play viable in these games, especially ER. It's just too fast. Thing just fly at you from a mile away.
I watch these build guides and videos about like, oh this casting time isn't that long-- I do like the video, and while my character is waving around 12 things murder me. I just don't see time and speed that way experts do. At the end of the day, these games are always gonna be about dodging wildly until you land a lucky hit with a sword, and do that a jillion times.
I’m the same when I watch these videos of someone buffing like a half dozen different things or more and one shorting a boss, but then I do it and it’s not even half their health or something. Idk maybe some wear off too soon or whatever. I’m sure it’s possible but takes more practice than I think is worth it to play that way. I like to get more down and dirty in the gutter with these A-holes to afflict status build ups, jump attacks, etc. vs relying on intricate buff patterns and whatnot.

The game favors aggressive play anyways, which is supported by quick stamina replenishment, ash gank squads, powerstancing shit like colossal weapons, dual staffs/seals, etc. Even defense is designed to be more aggressive with the addition of guard counters and the curved sword talisman that boosts this damage type. My latest is using high poise armor with a Heavy infused Troll’s Golden Sword and its default skill, which when using the Roar Talisman and high strength levels can pretty much one shot any normal enemy in range. If they are still alive they’re usually at least staggered for a follow up with something else.

IMO, only the Evergaol fools and maybe the red phantoms are designed to be fought like a typical Souls boss encounter. Like dualist type combat. The rest, or at least vast majority are designed for spectacle and fair game to whatever the player can throw at them.
 
Last edited:

sXeth

Elite Member
Legacy
Nov 15, 2012
3,301
675
118
I’m the same when I watch these videos of someone buffing like a half dozen different things or more and one shorting a boss, but then I do it and it’s not even half their health or something. Idk maybe some wear off too soon or whatever. I’m sure it’s possible but takes more practice than I think is worth it to play that way. I like to get more down and dirty in the gutter with these A-holes to afflict status build ups, jump attacks, etc. vs relying on intricate buff patterns and whatnot.

The game favors aggressive play anyways, which is supported by quick stamina replenishment, ash gank squads, powerstancing shit like colossal weapons, dual staffs/seals, etc. Even defense is designed to be more aggressive with the addition of guard counters and the curved sword talisman that boosts this damage type. My latest is using high poise armor with a Heavy infused Troll’s Golden Sword and its default skill, which when using the Roar Talisman and high strength levels can pretty much one shot any normal enemy in range. If they are still alive they’re usually at least staggered for a follow up with something else.

IMO, only the Evergaol fools and maybe the red phantoms are designed to be fought like a typical Souls boss encounter. Like dualist type combat. The rest, or at least vast majority are designed for spectacle and fair game to whatever the player can throw at them.

The buffing stuff usually requires pre-programmed macros to do. Also, it may vary by channel but never completely discount the possibility of literal BS via mods or whatnot lol.


The trick I found with Faith casting was either have a co-op partner do a relevant thing so the input reading AI aims at them, or use some throway craftable that would initiate an attack from the AI, then do the spell once they're "locked in". Locked in being in quotes because as previously noted, enemies in these games don't obey rules and can occasionally do nonsense like a 117 degree turn mid leap to re-aim their attack at a different location based off an input read.
 

Old_Hunter_77

Elite Member
Dec 29, 2021
1,766
1,610
118
Country
United States
The buffing stuff usually requires pre-programmed macros to do. Also, it may vary by channel but never completely discount the possibility of literal BS via mods or whatnot lol.


The trick I found with Faith casting was either have a co-op partner do a relevant thing so the input reading AI aims at them, or use some throway craftable that would initiate an attack from the AI, then do the spell once they're "locked in". Locked in being in quotes because as previously noted, enemies in these games don't obey rules and can occasionally do nonsense like a 117 degree turn mid leap to re-aim their attack at a different location based off an input read.
That all sounds way too complicated and annoying if I even understand wtf you're talking about lol

For now I followed one of the Fextra guide suggestions and I got this big spear katana thing and using blood flame and a repeating thrust ash of war. It sure looks cool and feels awesome when it works, but I really struggle to use these big weapons in this game, like half the time I'm swinging at everything BUT the enemy.
 

hanselthecaretaker

My flask is half full
Legacy
Nov 18, 2010
8,738
5,905
118
The buffing stuff usually requires pre-programmed macros to do. Also, it may vary by channel but never completely discount the possibility of literal BS via mods or whatnot lol.


The trick I found with Faith casting was either have a co-op partner do a relevant thing so the input reading AI aims at them, or use some throway craftable that would initiate an attack from the AI, then do the spell once they're "locked in". Locked in being in quotes because as previously noted, enemies in these games don't obey rules and can occasionally do nonsense like a 117 degree turn mid leap to re-aim their attack at a different location based off an input read.
There are also at least a couple lightning spells that when charged will thwart the usual input reading, like with Malenia. However she’ll often fall victim to AoE attacks like Fortissax
Lightning Spear or Burn, O Flame if timed right.

As an aside I think the term “input reading” is a bit of a catch-all, because often times when attacks are delayed/charged there are quite a few enemies that won’t dodge until the last second. I think the biggest issue is with healing, which has been punishable by AI since at least Bloodborne IIRC. This can also be baited though rather easily.


That all sounds way too complicated and annoying if I even understand wtf you're talking about lol

For now I followed one of the Fextra guide suggestions and I got this big spear katana thing and using blood flame and a repeating thrust ash of war. It sure looks cool and feels awesome when it works, but I really struggle to use these big weapons in this game, like half the time I'm swinging at everything BUT the enemy.
Might that be this thing? Interesting how both builds associated with it are black flame based.
 

sXeth

Elite Member
Legacy
Nov 15, 2012
3,301
675
118
That all sounds way too complicated and annoying if I even understand wtf you're talking about lol

For now I followed one of the Fextra guide suggestions and I got this big spear katana thing and using blood flame and a repeating thrust ash of war. It sure looks cool and feels awesome when it works, but I really struggle to use these big weapons in this game, like half the time I'm swinging at everything BUT the enemy.
Basically boils down to "the games gonna cheat, so figure out how to exploit the fact it cheats" lol.

When I played the two most effective Faith spells were the Blood Flies and the Rot homing missiles, much as someone mentioned with sorceries above, because they don't launch straight at the target, but have a bit of delay and homing aspect. The AI could do its little input read dodge but it would be before the attack was really coming in.


All the "big" Faith spells are these giant Final Fantasy summon type attacks that... come out pathetically slow, you usually get whomped out of them (or take huge damage with the ones that stop you getting staggered) and end up not doing a particularly big damage spike even then. With special note to the "Holy" spells being resisted by most of the enemies in the game, and healing the final boss instead of damaging it.


As an aside I think the term “input reading” is a bit of a catch-all, because often times when attacks are delayed/charged there are quite a few enemies that won’t dodge until the last second. I think the biggest issue is with healing, which has been punishable by AI since at least Bloodborne IIRC. This can also be baited though rather easily.
Well input reading is very obvious. If push square to use a healing flask, but I'm behind the enemy, or even better, behind a wall. I shouldn't see them immediate spin to me and try and attack ignoring all other threats on the field. Or (and I can probably dig up the video) wartch Leonine misbegotten take a 117 degree turn midleap to land on me after targeting a spirit. There are also multiple examples, with Crucible Knights being most prominent, where they always use the identical move regardless of any consideration of spacing (which then turns into an ability to exploit or always know the safe distance)

A reaction would require them to have line of sight, not occur until they completed a previous action. And generally they would choose an appropriate move to use.


As per prior posts, this is the biggest deal with their combat choices. Handwave "magic" all they want, theres a distinct lack of sort of ruleset or physics to govern the behaviour. Its problematic in the same way that Wolfensteins stealth (from another thread) having one enemy "psychically" alert everyone else then they all know your location even if you hide again is. It's not insurmountable, and even becomes exploitable, but its a glaring gap.
 

hanselthecaretaker

My flask is half full
Legacy
Nov 18, 2010
8,738
5,905
118
Basically boils down to "the games gonna cheat, so figure out how to exploit the fact it cheats" lol.

When I played the two most effective Faith spells were the Blood Flies and the Rot homing missiles, much as someone mentioned with sorceries above, because they don't launch straight at the target, but have a bit of delay and homing aspect. The AI could do its little input read dodge but it would be before the attack was really coming in.


All the "big" Faith spells are these giant Final Fantasy summon type attacks that... come out pathetically slow, you usually get whomped out of them (or take huge damage with the ones that stop you getting staggered) and end up not doing a particularly big damage spike even then. With special note to the "Holy" spells being resisted by most of the enemies in the game, and healing the final boss instead of damaging it.




Well input reading is very obvious. If push square to use a healing flask, but I'm behind the enemy, or even better, behind a wall. I shouldn't see them immediate spin to me and try and attack ignoring all other threats on the field. Or (and I can probably dig up the video) wartch Leonine misbegotten take a 117 degree turn midleap to land on me after targeting a spirit. There are also multiple examples, with Crucible Knights being most prominent, where they always use the identical move regardless of any consideration of spacing (which then turns into an ability to exploit or always know the safe distance)

A reaction would require them to have line of sight, not occur until they completed a previous action. And generally they would choose an appropriate move to use.


As per prior posts, this is the biggest deal with their combat choices. Handwave "magic" all they want, theres a distinct lack of sort of ruleset or physics to govern the behaviour. Its problematic in the same way that Wolfensteins stealth (from another thread) having one enemy "psychically" alert everyone else then they all know your location even if you hide again is. It's not insurmountable, and even becomes exploitable, but its a glaring gap.

Another big issue that FROM still hasn’t seemed to address is the lack of collision on more than half the walls in the games. Gives contextual irony to the “safe” messages that are often found scattered about.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

Old_Hunter_77

Elite Member
Dec 29, 2021
1,766
1,610
118
Country
United States
Might that be this thing? Interesting how both builds associated with it are black flame based.
Yes, that's what I got, and yeah I want to be doing Black Flame stuff, it just looks cool. It also continues my theme of the idea that Elden Ring is really just Dark Souls 2-2, and I had fun messing around with hexes in DS2.

So I been using this weapon, and yeah, I hate it, lol. I don't understand how anyone uses anything other than a sword in this stupid game. Big weapons are just so freaking SLLLLOWWWW and everything else flies around the screen, it's insane. this game is so stupid. I can't wait to play more this weekend.

All the "big" Faith spells are these giant Final Fantasy summon type attacks that... come out pathetically slow, you usually get whomped out of them (or take huge damage with the ones that stop you getting staggered) and end up not doing a particularly big damage spike even then. With special note to the "Holy" spells being resisted by most of the enemies in the game, and healing the final boss instead of damaging it.
*sigh* yeah, I know. But I want them! This is probably where I'll stop playing and not finish this play-through, and that's fine, or whatever.
Still I'm impressed you were able to use Blood Flies. I remember getting that one, thinking it looked so cool, and completely not understanding how to practically use it in combat. I guess pretty much describes all my experience with incantations.

So yesterday I defeated one of the worst bosses of all time, the Red Wolf of... whatever it's called, in the academy. God I hate this thing, the perfect example of everything wrong with the style of boss fight that admittedly started in my favorite game Bloodborne but has reached stupid levels in ER- the flying around everywhere all the time bullshit. Yes, I can understand its basic sword in the mouth attacks and avoid them on their own. But when it's also shooting magic swords and flying around, it is simply impossible to dodge because what am I dodging. Goddamn this game.
My whole build/character/roleplay is softening up enemies with my black flame. But it's impossible to hit this thing with the slow casting incantation. You would think my big spear sword thing would hit it sometimes, but no by the time I push R1 it's flown around the screen twice. So I had to revert to sword and shield. Lame.

Then I went back to Limgrave to top off some caves and catacombs and the gaols and reveling in the mix of wonderful and stupid in this game. One gaol enemy uses ice powers and a sword, which is also an ice sword, and that presented an actually fun challenge where I was able to use the spear-sward effectively. Then I'm in a cave with a bear boss and it's so big that there's no where to not get hit by it, lol so stupid. Then I fought a plant- I like fighting plants, so good- man lemme tell you, if there's one type of creature that is going to be susceptible to black flame, it's a literal plant.
 

hanselthecaretaker

My flask is half full
Legacy
Nov 18, 2010
8,738
5,905
118
Yes, that's what I got, and yeah I want to be doing Black Flame stuff, it just looks cool. It also continues my theme of the idea that Elden Ring is really just Dark Souls 2-2, and I had fun messing around with hexes in DS2.

So I been using this weapon, and yeah, I hate it, lol. I don't understand how anyone uses anything other than a sword in this stupid game. Big weapons are just so freaking SLLLLOWWWW and everything else flies around the screen, it's insane. this game is so stupid. I can't wait to play more this weekend.



*sigh* yeah, I know. But I want them! This is probably where I'll stop playing and not finish this play-through, and that's fine, or whatever.
Still I'm impressed you were able to use Blood Flies. I remember getting that one, thinking it looked so cool, and completely not understanding how to practically use it in combat. I guess pretty much describes all my experience with incantations.

So yesterday I defeated one of the worst bosses of all time, the Red Wolf of... whatever it's called, in the academy. God I hate this thing, the perfect example of everything wrong with the style of boss fight that admittedly started in my favorite game Bloodborne but has reached stupid levels in ER- the flying around everywhere all the time bullshit. Yes, I can understand its basic sword in the mouth attacks and avoid them on their own. But when it's also shooting magic swords and flying around, it is simply impossible to dodge because what am I dodging. Goddamn this game.
My whole build/character/roleplay is softening up enemies with my black flame. But it's impossible to hit this thing with the slow casting incantation. You would think my big spear sword thing would hit it sometimes, but no by the time I push R1 it's flown around the screen twice. So I had to revert to sword and shield. Lame.

Then I went back to Limgrave to top off some caves and catacombs and the gaols and reveling in the mix of wonderful and stupid in this game. One gaol enemy uses ice powers and a sword, which is also an ice sword, and that presented an actually fun challenge where I was able to use the spear-sward effectively. Then I'm in a cave with a bear boss and it's so big that there's no where to not get hit by it, lol so stupid. Then I fought a plant- I like fighting plants, so good- man lemme tell you, if there's one type of creature that is going to be susceptible to black flame, it's a literal plant.


Yeah the inspiration is pretty blatant here. Kinda funny how the less aggressive Sif still took 3x as long to beat lol.
 

Old_Hunter_77

Elite Member
Dec 29, 2021
1,766
1,610
118
Country
United States
You know I did mean to mention Sif but the post was getting too long...
Sif is one of the great boss fights of all time for me. The actual fight, yes, but the presentation, the lore, and that whole thing where it's sort of sad at the end... and the added hiccup of how you can get a different intro if you do some DLC trickery...

And here, it's just a stupid annoying thing in a dungeon.
Even worse is this same damn dog appears in that underground city making it impossible to freely explore that area. Ugh.

Yes, I enjoy complaining about Elden Ring while playing, I dunno what's wrong with me lol