The slut issue

[Treblaine]

Summary:
-"Slut" is not a neutral descriptive term.
-It is a term of unfair arbitrary judgement
-It is sexist in its design, use and purpose
-You wouldn't accept it used against your own mother, don't use it against anyone else.

If you are judging someone then its judgemental, if not how then would you suggest you refer to someone male or female who sleeps with large numbers of people? And for the record I have guy friends who I have and will continue to say are sluts.

As for the fairness or arbitrariness of the word you're right, but lying and cheating can also fairly arbitrary and it does often depend on a certain point of view.

If it is so sexist and controlling and intended purely to shame a woman into submission so she meekly accepts that she is dirty and unclean and should be faithful only to the one man who took her virginity then why do women use it so very often?

In short a word is judgemental because you're judging. Call a Muslim a pig or a dog and thats one hell of a fight you're starting, call a Aussie a pig and he'll just shrug it off. It all depends on context.

"how then would you suggest you refer to someone male or female who sleeps with large numbers of people?"

We managed for centuries without a specific term for men who have sex often, we don't need a special one for women. And slut IS used against women, it's only ironically and ineffectively used against men.

I guess you could call both male and female who get laid often: "lucky"

"lying and cheating can also fairly arbitrary"

Absolutely NOT!

Lying is not telling the truth. Cheating is going against what you promised to do. These are objective terms, no perspective needed.

"then why do women use (the term slut) so very often?"

Because they are bound by the same rules FORCED ON THEM unfairly, they get marked out for being a slut if they break them they don't want to see one woman get away with it. When a group of women all defy these gender conventions of "female purity and submissiveness" then they only ever use the term slut ironically as in "ha ha, we're such sluts lol" much like how open homosexuals may use the term "fag" or black people may use the term "******". Not that closeted homosexuals don't use the term "******" is a mean and hurtful way or that there are not black people who are racist towards other black people in using terms like "******".

Also, the way you use judgemental is as if all judging is equal.

It is not acceptable to judge people in things that don't afflict others. Judging a vandal for destroying other people's property is completely different from judging people in their private loving relationships as negative.

The subtext is clear: men want woman all to themselves and women also confirm to that.

 

[Zack Alklazaris]

because calling someone a slut unfairly is mean and it does happen. Besides some people have a different definition to you: "a woman who dresses provocatively", you know boobs everywhere.

Although I don't see a problem with women who dress all sexual like.

What about a woman/man who freely admits she sleeps around?

I once dated a girl who was known as the Disney Whore (she worked at Disney), because she slept around. I found out later she was sleeping with at least 2 other people besides me, thats pretty slutty...

 

[blazearmoru]

So I have a question...

We call someone a liar if they lie, especially if they lie a lot.

We call someone a cheater if they cheat, especially if they cheat a lot (Whether we speak from a videogame sense or a marriage-breaking stance)

We call someone a gamer if they play a lot of games... I could go on, you get the point.

So then why is it "wrong" to call someone a player/slut if they sleep around a lot? It seems to me like you're just stating the obvious with this, you know?

There are many reasons why it's wrong and here is to list a few.
1. Negative connotations, labels. It's the same of calling someone black or a negro monkey.
2. Negative consequences for the labeled person. We lived in a world of retards justifying their need to bully others - aka the religious. Don't get people stoned to death for a victim-less crime - that said, a victim-less crime is not a crime, the stoning is a crime though.
3. Why was it ever wrong to be a slut in the first place? The answer is because of primal jealousy from uneducated selfish dumb ape brained men. We ought to have out grown that shit by now no? I feel that religious non-sluts and the sort are more of a problem, like a mental disease. If that is the case, then why label the natural? Why label the biologically normal? When the mental disorder of suppressing the urge of procreating is abnormal?
#3 could be neglected if you can think of a real (non excuse, non justification, non fallacy) reason that being a slut as well as the acceptance of sluts is harmful. I say sluts but I mean for both genders. I personally don't see hating on sluts anything other than tradition, like stoning was a tradition. Don't say biological jealousy, if sluts are the norm then people will not be objects to be owned. I think that's a plus.

Other people have different ideas on it, but those are mine.

 

[Gatx]

We managed for centuries without a specific term for men who have sex often, we don't need a special one for women. And slut IS used against women, it's only ironically and ineffectively used against men.

Actually there's plenty of terms for men that mean generally "someone who sleeps around": stud, player, playboy, ladies man, lady killer, etc. and all of them are used with a positive connotation (and I actually can't think of a negative one other that doesn't tack a male adjective in front of "slut" or "whore").

 

[Phasmal]

I find people who need to call others `sluts` are usually insecure.

It's an insult.
You can hum and ha about it, but that's what it is.
Not only that, it's a fucking stupid insult.
It suggests that women, (whether they want sex or not) are supposed to make sex `difficult` to obtain.

How about the next time you feel you need to label someone as such, you just keep your mouth shut. I am certain your head will not explode.

 

[lunavixen]

Unfortunately, when it comes to issues of sex and sexuality, double standards exists between the genders, men who sleep with a lot of women tend to be "admired" and the subject of others being jealous of them, but the opposite is true for women, women who sleep with a lot of men are looked down on and treated poorly, even if the sex is consensual.

Not denying the existence of double standards, but this statement does need some qualification.

It depends the rung of the social ladder and age. I am 24, and I move about in circles that are highly educated, and this double standard doesn't exist. People who have a lot of casual sex are... people who have a lot of casual sex.

As for the lower classes/"rabble"... Who cares how they think and do?

I'm 22 "middle class" though on the lower end of that spectrum, I don't actually care how people live their lives as long as they aren't trying to force what they do on me, I was merely acknowledging that the double standard does exist.

 

[MagunBFP]

Lying is always an absolute? Give me 100 people and then ask them is President Clinton had "sexual relations" with that woman, Miss Lowinski, and I very much doubt you will get 100% agreement on if he did or didn't... or maybe ask those 100 people just how far you would have to be before you were cheating on your partner and many different people would have different opinions... you could almost say the line is arbitrarily drawn.

If all women use slut to keep other women as prisoners to society then I pity them, that is an endless cycle of victimisation you are all perpetuating... maybe one day some good men will come along and set you free from these cruel expections you've been damned to try to live up to. All taunting aside, if you do something because you think it makes you more attractive or socially acceptible then you need help. The right thing is the right thing and no ones opinion of you matters more then your own, but I can say that I live the charmed life of the White, 30-ish, middle-class, decently educated, Male... in otherwords I'm the devil who has kept everyone else in chains and submission.

For the record I agree judging a vandal for destroying someone else's property is not bad, but its no different from judging a heroin addict who is only affecting themself, nor is it any different from judging a polygamous couple for having an open relationship...

The subtext is confusing... some women want other women, some men are very submissive and other women are either consumed with self-loathing or want to be seen as victims so they can rise above their male oppressors

 

[the_dude_abides]

Its funny how only women are sluts isn't it? Men are 'players' or studs. Its like how a large section of young men in my culture find NOTHING wrong with sleeping with loads of women yet want to marry a virgin.

Hypocrites REALLY annoy me.

 

[Sparrow]

I find people who need to call others `sluts` are usually insecure.

It's an insult.
You can hum and ha about it, but that's what it is.
Not only that, it's a fucking stupid insult.
It suggests that women, (whether they want sex or not) are supposed to make sex `difficult` to obtain.

How about the next time you feel you need to label someone as such, you just keep your mouth shut. I am certain your head will not explode.

Why is everyone assuming "sluts" refers to women? I get that for the most part only women are called it (yeah yeah, sexism is a *****, we get it) but it's not helping that everyone in this thread is just assuming that the OP meant a woman. At no point the OP say "why can't we call women sluts?" Isn't it presumptuous to assume he meant women, opposed to women and men?

Nope, you never successfully connected that since I never said anything about always assuming the more negative connotation. You never showed where I actually suggested it.

I explained it all in the earlier post. Connected the dots and all. Whether or not you choose to ignore it as not being enough is up to you.

No dots at all that showed me actually saying that. So I guess the final verdict is just dishonest.

...isn't this thread just you two arguing now? Can't you take this shit flinging to PMs instead of blocking this thread up?

 

[Phasmal]

I find people who need to call others `sluts` are usually insecure.

It's an insult.
You can hum and ha about it, but that's what it is.
Not only that, it's a fucking stupid insult.
It suggests that women, (whether they want sex or not) are supposed to make sex `difficult` to obtain.

How about the next time you feel you need to label someone as such, you just keep your mouth shut. I am certain your head will not explode.

Why is everyone assuming "sluts" refers to women? I get that for the most part only women are called it (yeah yeah, sexism is a *****, we get it) but it's not helping that everyone in this thread is just assuming that the OP meant a woman. At no point the OP say "why can't we call women sluts?" Isn't it presumptuous to assume he meant women, opposed to women and men?

Men simply don't really get called it, and when they do, there is not the same stigma attatched.
Either way it's still a fucking stupid insult.

 

[MagunBFP]

Its funny how only women are sluts isn't it? Men are 'players' or studs. Its like how a large section of young men in my culture find NOTHING wrong with sleeping with loads of women yet want to marry a virgin.

Hypocrites REALLY annoy me.

You actually know guys who specifically want to marry a virgin? I never understood that, if I'm going to been with a single woman to divorce do us part I would prefer knowing that, among other things, we're on the same page sexually.

As far as I'm aware though men celebrate other men's sexual achievements publically, whether personally the think well of it or not, but women don't have the same opinion. They perfer that the man they sleep with hasn't touched another woman, that they are the one and only and there have been no other sexual partners before them...

 

[Sparrow]

I find people who need to call others `sluts` are usually insecure.

It's an insult.
You can hum and ha about it, but that's what it is.
Not only that, it's a fucking stupid insult.
It suggests that women, (whether they want sex or not) are supposed to make sex `difficult` to obtain.

How about the next time you feel you need to label someone as such, you just keep your mouth shut. I am certain your head will not explode.

Why is everyone assuming "sluts" refers to women? I get that for the most part only women are called it (yeah yeah, sexism is a *****, we get it) but it's not helping that everyone in this thread is just assuming that the OP meant a woman. At no point the OP say "why can't we call women sluts?" Isn't it presumptuous to assume he meant women, opposed to women and men?

Men simply don't really get called it, and when they do, there is not the same stigma attatched.
Either way it's still a fucking stupid insult.

Maybe things are different where you come from, but slut shaming is frowned upon in England. I know that's not exactly what you said, but I think it relates quite neatly. It's not that people have started calling men sluts, it's that people have stopped giving a shit if a woman gets laid more than a guy does. I think a lot of the people in this thread either don't visit the outside world much or live in the 20th century. Equality has existed for a long time now, it's just a minority that keep fucking it up for the majority of normal, non-sexist folks. If anything, this thread is proof of that.

 

[Phasmal]

Maybe things are different where you come from, but slut shaming is frowned upon in England. I know that's not exactly what you said, but I think it relates quite neatly. It's not that people have started calling men sluts, it's that people have stopped giving a shit if a woman gets laid more than a guy does. I think a lot of the people in this thread either don't visit the outside world much or live in the 20th century. Equality has existed for a long time now, it's just a minority that keep fucking it up for the majority of normal, non-sexist folks. If anything, this thread is proof of that.

Uh, well... I'm English.
And slut shaming sure happens here.
People still care about that sort of thing.
Maybe it's cause I hang out with quite a lot of blokey dudes but yeah, dudes brag about sex, ladies are not supposed to.

 

[Treblaine]

We managed for centuries without a specific term for men who have sex often, we don't need a special one for women. And slut IS used against women, it's only ironically and ineffectively used against men.

Actually there's plenty of terms for men that mean generally "someone who sleeps around": stud, player, playboy, ladies man, lady killer, etc. and all of them are used with a positive connotation (and I actually can't think of a negative one other that doesn't tack a male adjective in front of "slut" or "whore").

That was my point from the wider discussion, the lack of negative equivalent.

 

[scw55]

Because society has the presumption that when you use the word slut it means you're referring to a woman.
It is a sexist term as a result.

Saying "Man-Slut" is also sexist because it reinforces the association with slut to being a term for women.

Likewise for 'whore' or 'hooker'. It's society that makes them sexist terms. So it's society that makes them bad words.

-

I use slut for both men and women. I dislike words that change depending on gender.
I use Actor for both male and female actors for examples.

It's interesting how sexist language is. But it's only sexist because people use it in a sexist manner.

 

[Sparrow]

Maybe things are different where you come from, but slut shaming is frowned upon in England. I know that's not exactly what you said, but I think it relates quite neatly. It's not that people have started calling men sluts, it's that people have stopped giving a shit if a woman gets laid more than a guy does. I think a lot of the people in this thread either don't visit the outside world much or live in the 20th century. Equality has existed for a long time now, it's just a minority that keep fucking it up for the majority of normal, non-sexist folks. If anything, this thread is proof of that.

Uh, well... I'm English.
And slut shaming sure happens here.
People still care about that sort of thing.
Maybe it's cause I hang out with quite a lot of blokey dudes but yeah, dudes brag about sex, ladies are not supposed to.

Hang out with different people.

 

[Treblaine]

Lying is always an absolute? Give me 100 people and then ask them is President Clinton had "sexual relations" with that woman, Miss Lowinski, and I very much doubt you will get 100% agreement on if he did or didn't... or maybe ask those 100 people just how far you would have to be before you were cheating on your partner and many different people would have different opinions... you could almost say the line is arbitrarily drawn.

If all women use slut to keep other women as prisoners to society then I pity them, that is an endless cycle of victimisation you are all perpetuating... maybe one day some good men will come along and set you free from these cruel expections you've been damned to try to live up to. All taunting aside, if you do something because you think it makes you more attractive or socially acceptible then you need help. The right thing is the right thing and no ones opinion of you matters more then your own, but I can say that I live the charmed life of the White, 30-ish, middle-class, decently educated, Male... in otherwords I'm the devil who has kept everyone else in chains and submission.

For the record I agree judging a vandal for destroying someone else's property is not bad, but its no different from judging a heroin addict who is only affecting themself, nor is it any different from judging a polygamous couple for having an open relationship...

The subtext is confusing... some women want other women, some men are very submissive and other women are either consumed with self-loathing or want to be seen as victims so they can rise above their male oppressors

Lying is claiming what is contrary to what you KNOW to be true. Being unsure about what actually happened and saying what is not true is not lying.

You should pity these women, women who as a group break out of this convention of "Slut labels negative power" never go back to it.

They aren't perpetuating this, most media is written, created and produced by men. Women are far too dependent on the approval of men who use the slut ideology.

"I agree judging a vandal for destroying someone else's property is not bad, but its no different from judging a heroin addict who is only affecting themself"

I don't judge drug addicts, I help them with the afflictions they wish they were rid of and hold no animosity to them or think they are deserving of any shame. I can understand they may have some self-created regret as their chemical habit needs higher and higher doses for smaller effects.

There is no confusion in the subtext... you are merely OBFUSCATING the non-issue.

Please don't turn this into a "ohh, poor mee" as if this is some persecution against men just because the slut-term isn't perpetuated by women.

 

[Angie7F]

Hold on a sec...Am I the only one here that would be offended if i was called a liar and cheater as much as I would be if called a slut?


Even if we were using such word when referring to a person that was not present at that time, I still would whoever that stated that another person was as liar/ cheater/ slut was very shallow because most lying/ cheating/ sleeping around is a subjective notion.

 

[Techno Squidgy]

Because the intent behind it is not to state the obvious but to be insulting. I don't believe I have to spell it out: intent matters. You can intellectualise all the insults hurled around, and come to the conclusion that they aren't insulting. At the same time, that's missing a lot of the context.

It can both. Like calling someone a liar or cheater. Those are obviously negative characteristics like "slut". I won't let society subjugate me into not stating the obvious. If it hurts their feelings maybe they need to look into a mirror. Because if a word describing your behavior hurts your feelings you have only yourself to blame.

This is not to say calling someone a slut is always justified as some people have rather "conservative" standards on that subject. But it's the same with everything. People get called liars or cheaters unfairly quite often as well.

the reason that slut is considered a harsh thing to call someone is because the implication is that they are a bad person for enjoying sex. Which simply isn't the case. Hurting people deliberately (emotionally or physically) so you can get laid, does make you a bad person (unless your involved in BDSM and it's all consensual). Enjoying sex is not a bad thing. Having a lot of sex is not a bad thing as long as your sensible and stay safe. That is why you don't call someone a slut. It is not "Stating the obvious".