The things we like are just "things"

[Phasmal]

I'm not sure that guy was trying to be a d**k. To be plainly honest, if I worked at a comics store and a girl wanted to know about X-Men comics my first reaction would be a mixture of "awesome" and "I'm not sure she knows what X-Men is." Like, I would be a bit ashamed to start going all-out nerd and start showing her the best-drawn panels of Wolverine ever in my favorite comic, my first reaction would be a little surprised, and I'd probably tell her that. It's simply that most girls aren't into comics, and my advice would change depending on whether she was a die-hard comics fan or a girl who wants to read X-Men because her boyfriend said he does.

Basically, I'm saying that maybe the guy felt a twinge of insecurity when a girl asked him about X-Men. I'm pretty sure the guy wasn't being elitist, just probably felt a bit vulnerable in that exact second. Imagine if a girl asked you what your favorite My Little Pony character is on your first date. Would you just start gushing about Fluttershy?

"X-Men ROX! You should go with the Phoenix Saga, where Jean Grey gets twisted by the Phoenix Club and the Phoenix is UNLEASHED!" *Gets keys and finds collector's edition comic, starts showing gnarly panels of Magneto going ZZZAAANNNGGG and all these muscular guards are going AAAHHH!" I know I'm sometimes hesitant to expose my inner nerd to (huge quote on quote) "Normal People."

By the way, I'm not into comics, though I do read a few.

You do realise this is why we don't ask, right? Why should it matter that it's a girl you're talking to. Why would that make you insecure. I don't get it.

I got very nervous recently buying my first Magic deck. (Plus disappointed cause I wanted black but they had run out of black).
I know how to play Magic, been playing it online for a while. I shouldn't have been nervous but I was because you can never tell when shitty elitist gatekeepers are going to spring `innocent` questions on you to prove your fakery.
Turns out neither of the shop assistants even know how to play Magic. Felt silly for getting nervous.

Nerds like to think of themselves as different from other people. We're not really.

I mean, the guy who approached me when I was staring at the back of the Dragon Age: Origins box who helpfully explained the game to me, probably didn't realise I had been frowning at it because I was thinking `Is it worth getting this on the Xbox when I've already finished it on the PC?`. Because to him I didn't look like the kind of person who would have played it. (And, no I didn't correct him because that would have been embarrassing for both of us).

Basically, nerds are just people and are guilty of making stupid assumptions before even asking a single question. We see some people and assume they are in our group and others we assume can't be.

 

[Eamar]

snip

Dude... what? If you work in a shop, you serve the customer and you treat them the same regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation or favourite shade of blue. Simples.

If a CUSTOMER (because, and I really can't stress this enough, their gender really is irrelevant) says they want to get into X-Men but don't know where to start, that sounds like the exact sort of situation a comicbook store employee is there to help with, and one they probably encounter pretty regularly.

As for the dating comparison... again: what?! Dating and serving a customer are two totally different things. The guy shouldn't be worrying about impressing (in a flirty sense) the customer, or saying something that might make him appear less attractive to her. That's not in any way appropriate. Being enthusiastic about the store's product is appropriate. Geez.

Sorry if I'm being unsympathetic, but like many of the other ladies here I have had WAY too many experiences like this myself. Be it having comics, games or miniatures explained to me as if I'm five years old by male staff (despite being a freakin' regular customer in some cases), or being straight up ignored while staff address a male friend who happens to be with me, whether or not they're even a nerd. Not to mention the shameless, and I really do mean shameless, ogling that goes on.

*And breathe. That feels better.*

OT: Seems to be a human trait common to all interests, but I agree it's bullshit and pretty disappointing.

 

[Neverhoodian]

Imagine if a girl asked you what your favorite My Little Pony character is on your first date. Would you just start gushing about Fluttershy?

Psh, heck no. What kind of pleb do you think I am?

Obviously I would start gushing about Rarity, because Rarity is best pony. It isn't even up for debate. She's simply too fabulous to be otherwise.[footnote]I'll admit, Fluttershy was my favorite when I first started watching FiM[/footnote]

In all seriousness, hardcore nerds can be just as exclusive and discriminatory as any other. It doesn't help that some of them bring a victim complex to the table, where they regard any "outsiders" as a threat.

My point is this. It's not just geeks. It's not just nerds. People are tribal. They have no obligation to be nice to you, and if they don't know you, they probably won't be unless they want to get into your pants or they just happen to feel like it at that moment. Sure, they could think about the long term goal of their particular hobby, but that's awfully long term thinking.

But if someone is wearing a shirt with, let's say, Big Boss on it, and they don't even know who Big Boss is, why shouldn't you feel annoyed by it?

It is a kind of cultural appropriation, no different to when white, rich people act "ghetto". They haven't lived this life so they don't automatically get the keys to the toys. And being a geek does require a certain kind of lifestyle and sacrifice in the past, and now the mainstream culture is deciding that it wants to pick up the toys they used to bully people for.

Would you wear a TuPac shirt, sing rap lyrics and speak in ebonics in the ghetto if you were white and rich? Even with absolutely no concept of race involved, would you? Because if you did, then you're a moron. You didn't live that kind of life, you don't automatically get to walk into that kind of lifestyle and be accepted. An extreme example, but one that gets the point across.

Personally, I don't care. Long term, I'd like more people to get into it. But just as your friend has the right to want to get into it, the guy has the right to be a nasty person about it. Free will and all that.

Yeah, I'm calling bullshit on "geeks require a certain kind of lifestyle" and "you aren't allowed to enjoy it unless you've suffered." "Geek culture" has pretty much become general culture in the past few decades to the point that the bar of entry is pretty much nonexistant. Movies like Lord of the Rings and The Avengers consistently smash box office records. Millions of people log onto games like League of Legends every day. Books series like Harry Potter and Game of Thrones topped the bestsellers list for weeks . Dr. freakin' Who has become mainstream, for crying out loud! And are you really going to sit there and say people aren't allowed to enjoy something unless they've been "in the trenches" and put up with being ostracized and bullied like nerds of the past? Because that sounds vengeful and mean-spirited to me. I was the subject of ridicule from time to time over my geeky interests as a kid, and it's because of those experiences that I say no child should have to endure something like that over something so trivial.

Also, "geek culture" covers such a huge gamut of genres and topics that it's pretty much impossible to point to certain interests and activities as "correct." What exactly constitutes a "certain kind of lifestyle?" Is it reading comic books? Playing video games? Playing tabletop games? Cosplaying? LARPing? Writing fanfiction? Is it being a weaboo? A Tolkienite? A trekkie? A brony? A furry? Do you see what I'm getting at?

Just because someone has the right doesn't make it right. Yes, people can act like assholes if they want, but they shouldn't be surprised if others call them out on it.

 

[Chris Tian]

but then you get somones, whos conventionally attractive,who eases through social situations, who smart, who'd into the same things they are and somtimes (for extra bonus point) [i/]is a feeeeeeeeeeeeemale[/i] which totally screws up their perception of the order of things...

I could imagine it goes like this: People take stuff (games/comics/whatever) waaaay to serious as a kind of retreat from the world in which they don't fit quite right. They have problems with social situations or not much going for them or whatever. If now someone from this hostile and alien world comes along and is into the same stuff or wants to get into it, they persive it as a kind of invasion.

Like the ridiculous "fake gamer girl" thing. Some guys who know nothing but rejection from attractive girls suddenly have to deal with the fact that there might be some of those among gamers and loose their shit, because thats their world and the mean girls who rejectet them don't belong there.

And being a geek does require a certain kind of lifestyle and sacrifice in the past,

I'm calling massive bullshit too. Being geek requires nothing more than being into something geeky. If, by sacrifices you mean get picked on in school, than thats definitely not necessary. You can absolutely be into something widely considerd geeky or nerdy and still get invitet to all the partys.

 

[Redd the Sock]

Can I go out on a limb and say posts like yours aren't helping?

Speaking for myself, it isn't the things I take pride in, but what few accomplishments I can achieve within them, be it the knowledge gained and retained, or the feat achieved in beating a difficult game, or finishing a large collection. I have a lot to learn, and still try and grow in various levels. Then, someone comes along and starts to take a mallet to the self esteem I have from that. Ignoring efforts to casualize things so that people can feel like the big achieving, know it all nerds without meeting those that met larger challenges, your post ironically asks why we're so judgmental in a way that is totally judgmental of us.

WE are enjoying the hobby wrong.
WE take it too seriously.
WE turn fun things into work.
WE have the wrong priorities.

and it gets to degrade to

WE have personal problems.
WE are a bunch of losers.
WE just can't get laid.
WE are such freaks.

At face value it can be hard not to take personally, but it becomes rather hostile we attacks on our "elitism" seem to be vested less in establishing tolerance than in reaffirming your own "better than the other guy" status. Yes, geek elitism produces jerks and leads to very unfair stereotyping for women and other groups, and if the complaints stopped at how we're being asses, I could stop there. Sadly, far too often "there's more than one way to like something" hides the judgement of "ours is the more correct way and you should follow suit." That produces hostility as we get asked to not judge the people judging us.

The whole tolerance things goes both ways, so if the casuals want to be judged less for being casual, we need less judgment of those that take their hobby to the extreme. Otherwise all you're asking is for someone to tolerate you, while you don't have to tolerate them, and few would make such a one sided choice.

 

[Chris Tian]

Ignoring efforts to casualize things so that people can feel like the big achieving, know it all nerds without meeting those that met larger challenges,

May I ask what "larger challenges" is supposed to mean in this context?

 

[Salus]

I think I'm in the minority then, because I have never, EVER experienced any type of elitism from a store clerk, ever.

I remember one time, when I was little, I wanted to buy the Warhammer 40k starter kit at my hobby store, but my father wouldn't let me. I was so sad I was almost on the verge of tears, but when I was about to leave the store the owner of the store secretly gave me all this 40k stuff to get started (from the kit) for free, including the rules, the dice/templates and all this other stuff. I read that rulebook front-to-back many times over before I had many models to play with. I wish I could just go back and thank that dude since I wouldn't have gotten into 40k a few year later if it wasn't for him.

When I go to the movie store, the clerks are happy to talk about the movie I'm renting. I remember the movie store guy told me the movie I was renting was freaky and put his palms facing out from his eyes in a strange gesture. I didn't know what to expect, but after I saw the movie (which was Pan's Labyrinth), he was right, it WAS freaky. Things like that.

At my local game stores there are many girls who work behind the counter and we often banter about games as I'm getting the latest Xbox release or whatever. I have ZERO experience with rude clerks. Maybe it's just where I live, I don't know.

 

[MysticSlayer]

I think I'm in the minority then, because I have never, EVER experienced any type of elitism from a store clerk, ever.

I actually have had similar experiences. Whether I'm at Gamestop, the local card and comic shop, or the movie store, I've never actually been subject to elitism. Normally, it is just people who are passionate about their hobby, and seeing someone else who has at least some interest in it, no matter how small, makes them excited to share their knowledge, and if I'm reasonably knowledgeable about the subject as well, then they enjoy having discussions.

Then again, I look like someone you would find in a store normally reserved for nerds, so the politeness may come mostly from how they don't judge me based on how I look, something I'd imagine certain people don't have the luxury of. After all, it isn't like we don't see plenty of elitism on the Internet, and venturing too far into certain communities (ex. the Dark Souls community) can subject you to plenty of elitism. Still, when we leave the anonymity of the Internet behind, it seems like the elitist attitudes are mostly relegated to a few odd stories, the occasional gossip had among friends, and the cynical interpretations of someone who misinterpreted a few comments made by the clerk.

 

[Vault101]

They have no obligation to be nice to you, and if they don't know you,

they do if theiyre running a store

[quote/]they probably won't be unless they want to get into your pants or they just happen to feel like it at that moment. [/quote]
what a wonderfully cynical veiw....

[quote/]It is a kind of cultural appropriation, no different to when white, rich people act "ghetto".[/quote]
I'm.....not sure I really agree but then thats a whole other can of worms...

[quote/]But just as your friend has the right to want to get into it, the guy has the right to be a nasty person about it. Free will and all that.[/quote]

Free will =/= rights completly different things, I CAN beat up whom ever I please..I don't have a "right" too

 

[Weaver]

This is ancillary to the discussion, but I've hear TotalBiscuit, Dodger, and Jesse Cox speak several times that they in fact know MCN's who DO create youtube channels with fake gamer girls (just an actress) to generate ad revenue.

I think I'm in the minority then, because I have never, EVER experienced any type of elitism from a store clerk, ever.

Same with me, but I'm Canadian and we're apparently all nice and stuff.

 

[Redd the Sock]

Ignoring efforts to casualize things so that people can feel like the big achieving, know it all nerds without meeting those that met larger challenges,

May I ask what "larger challenges" is supposed to mean in this context?

A simple example is comic history. Some people are put off by years of history they feel they need to know. Hence we get reboots. I didn't have much less history when I started (30 as compared to 50 years), and I rather enjoyed trying to piece things together over time, at a time when I didn't have the internet to help fill in the gaps. Back when I was more into anime I knew several people afraid of series "too long" or "too old." I've got family members deftly afraid of any book "too thick" (I wonder if I could make their heads explode by showing them the wheel of time).

Basically an attempt to step outside your comfort zone and not shy away if it gets difficult, be it a hard video game, a long book, or a more involved story. Nerd skill s might be lamer than other ones, but are no different in concept: they develop over time.

 

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

what different does it make? get the woman a damn X-men comic!

My favorite out of context quote of the day.

If anyone disagrees you are clearly not special enough to exist near my orbit. That quote you like, I liked it before everyone started using it. Me and my friends, relate to this quote. You see this quote is more than the average quote. It means something. It has brought us together. It was there for us in a time where each of us felt our own separate form of being alone in the world. We found this quote then each other. This quote means something. That is why your quote of the day sucks, poser...

 

[Vault101]

A simple example is comic history. Some people are put off by years of history they feel they need to know. Hence we get reboots. I didn't have much less history when I started (30 as compared to 50 years), and I rather enjoyed trying to piece things together over time, at a time when I didn't have the internet to help fill in the gaps. Back when I was more into anime I knew several people afraid of series "too long" or "too old." I've got family members deftly afraid of any book "too thick" (I wonder if I could make their heads explode by showing them the wheel of time).

Basically an attempt to step outside your comfort zone and not shy away if it gets difficult, be it a hard video game, a long book, or a more involved story. Nerd skill s might be lamer than other ones, but are no different in concept: they develop over time.

for me I'd draw the limit at comicbook history

mostly because to me its a big clusterfuck that can mean abolustly nothing at the whim of the higher ups

 

[Something Amyss]

It's human nature to set up groups and boundaries. We've been doing it since our earliest days. In modern society, the outlet for that is things like hobbies and pastimes. It's why people will fight over sports teams, and it's no different with nerds. The finer points may be different, but the overall theme is the same. People are defending their imagined territory.

We have our own cultural definitions of "geek" and "gamer" and we defend those like they're physical territory or finite resources.

That's not to say we should, but it is where it comes from.

Imagine if a girl asked you what your favorite My Little Pony character is on your first date. Would you just start gushing about Fluttershy?

Well, I'm not into MLP, but I wouldn't be bothered. I'm not ashamed of the things I like, from kids shows to chick flicks.

I also don't see what that has to do with a business transaction. I will treat someone on a date different than a customer in my (hypothetical) store. I especially wouldn't "gush" over anything simply because a customer asked me to sell them something.

what a wonderfully cynical veiw....

Come now, Vault, you should only expect courtesy from men if they want to bang you. I mean, why else would a guy be nice? Human decency?

And being a geek does require a certain kind of lifestyle and sacrifice in the past, and now the mainstream culture is deciding that it wants to pick up the toys they used to bully people for.

How much does one have to suffer, anyway? I mean, honestly, high school wasn't all that bad for me. Well, on the geek front. I had other issues and was borderline suicidal, but for the most part, I stopped having social problems in eighth or ninth grade. I don't remember the exact moment, but still. I didn't stop doing nerdy things. I was into video games, was a band geek (and played trombone, an instrument it's virtually impossible to be cool at), I did roleplaying games, I wrote music and poetry, quoted Monty Python and so on. I also made friends with folks on the football and lacrosse team, and got on with a broad group of people. I socialised and had fun. It's a shame I was also chemically imbalanced, but that's not the point here.

Did I sacrifice enough to count? I'm unclear, because I've suffered a lot less than those "fake geek girls" people complain about ad nauseum. I'm more readily accepted, though.

You compare this to a rich white kid acting ghetto, but more often than not a fair parallel would be a white kid from the ghetto getting crap for talking like they're from where they're from. And that happens, yes. And it's every bit a\s stupid.

And for the record, I adore Tupac and don't really care about anyone who thinks I can't like rap because I'm of the wrong skin tone and locale (I grew up poor, so economics isn't a factor). Then again, I don't speak in ebonics, so maybe I don't count. But maybe that's not here nor there, anyway. The idea of cultural appropriation isn't the same if you're defending against part of your culture.

Unless you're automatically assuming that because she's a girl, she can't be part of the culture. That seems to be where your analogy was aimed.

 

[Vault101]

Come now, Vault, you should only expect courtesy from men if they want to bang you. I mean, why else would a guy be nice? Human decency?
.

oh...well if its a gender thing (unlear) then this must mean I'm incredibly bangable!

 

[LetalisK]

Today I read something that made me angry

it was the story of a Lady going into a comicbook store wanting to read X-men but not knowing where to start....he dismissed her since they weren't "girly" comics

obviously this is rediculous to the point of parody, obviously this guys a fucking idiot because [i/]hello...dude, you dont want money? you think shes not gonna go to Amazon?[/i]

To play Inflammatory Quasi-Devil's Advocate, it could very well have been that he's a social reject that can't handle talking to people very well. Most of the times when I go into a "nerdy" type store like local computer stores, comic book/classic game shops, etc, the customer service has been abominable. That's also why I tend to stick with the eeeeevil chain stores like Gamestop. At least in my experience, their worst customer service was merely tepid. At its best, an employee broke store policy for me so that I could switch my recently bought and gently used PS2 for a PS3(plus the difference in cash). She was in my psychology senior capstone class the next year and we were partners for a project. Quite a nice Heather Graham-lookalike with a badass Femshep tattoo on her calf that she got during the class in preparation for ME3.

 

[sweetylnumb]

This is ancillary to the discussion, but I've hear TotalBiscuit, Dodger, and Jesse Cox speak several times that they in fact know MCN's who DO create youtube channels with fake gamer girls (just an actress) to generate ad revenue.

Omg, yes, theres a few girls out there that pretend to be geeky, that doesn't give anyone the right to treat females a different way to males in terms of customer service. There are all kinds of fakers out there, who blames their entire gender for them?

 

[mysecondlife]

Refusing service because a potential female customer wanted to buy X-men comics?

Pretty dick move. Borderline illegal too.

Hopefully somewhere out in the world a movie ticket vendor isn't refusing service to female movie goers xmen tickets for same reason.

 

[Weaver]

This is ancillary to the discussion, but I've hear TotalBiscuit, Dodger, and Jesse Cox speak several times that they in fact know MCN's who DO create youtube channels with fake gamer girls (just an actress) to generate ad revenue.

Omg, yes, theres a few girls out there that pretend to be geeky, that doesn't give anyone the right to treat females a different way to males in terms of customer service. There are all kinds of fakers out there, who blames their entire gender for them?

Good thing that's not at all what I was arguing, but whatever. This is the escapist, so when Vault says "These people do not exist" and I provide a counter claim to that argument - which, I'll remind you, I explicitly said is ancillary to the discussion at hand - it must mean I believe all women deserve to be blamed for that.

 

[Trinab]

I believe an earlier poster mentioned this, but the reason for such hostility is generally an identity issue. Forgive my armchair psychologist, but this is my thoughts on the matter.

This is the same attitude that generates the 'fake gamer girl' and 'f**king casual' mindsets, and his has to do with, (what I see,) as an insecure section of the population, who defined themselves by their interests.

As an aside, I am NOT saying that all nerds/geeks/whatever are like this. I am just trying to explain the more caustic members of this particular social group.

Moviebob did a Big Picture episode on the subject, and in my opinion he got it half-right. For the longest time, activities deemed 'nerdy' got one marginalized and rejected by society as a whole. When faced with constant rejection and stigma, you cling to your identity, your interests even harder, to re-affirm your own self worth. When society as a whole rejects you in their hierarchy, you make your own with your fellow rejects, with an entirely different way of measuring status. Small, surprising things can become measure of worth, that vary from person to person.

So with this in mind, you have a caustic setup in the nerd social sphere. A group of people that have traditionally been shunned by others, thus giving many of them self-esteem/self-worth issues.

When you define yourself by your interests, and are insecure about your self-worth, any potential breaches of that definition will be met with hostility. Thus when more people are growing more accepting of nerd culture, this starts to come to roost. People with egos inflated by their 'nerdyness' suddenly have to deal with outsiders from the traditions that have rejected them, now invading their space, their domain, and threatening the status quo.

Casual purveyors of nerd culture do not care about the internal systems in place to determine worth, those defined by the nerd community as a whole, and those within it. They care about the same system that has many of these socially awkward people become rejects in the first place. A casual comic reader isn't going to care two whits about how much a shop owner knows, save for how much it will help them find what they are looking for. All that effort, all that carefully built identity around superior knowledge will in the end not define worth to others. And the socially awkward that has so carefully built his esteem around that? They will not take that. One's ego cannot handle it. They will fight against it with every fibre of their being, because if they did not, in their minds, their identity may float away. Internally, giving it is akin to death. 'If my knowledge and effort, time and interest don't mean anything, then what am I?'

As a wise Cracked article once said, 'society only cares what you can bring to it.' This is a hard truth, and the longer I live, the more I agree with it. Nerd culture was a way of retreating away from that truth for a long time. A lot of people that should work these issues out are now being dragged kicking and screaming into reality. It's not pleasant, but ultimately, it's the best way to grow up. To forge your self identity, and self worth, on more then a house built on sand. Because the winds of change are blowing.