Good to know we see eye to eye on the consoles/PC issue Yahtzee. I've been a console gamer (with rare exceptions) all the way through the 360 generation, but I'm abandoning consoles for much the same reasons you put forth. For some bizarre reason, consoles have been desperately trying to rid themselves of as many advantages as possible. Long installation times, NO. LOCAL. CO-OP. (kind of a hot-button issue for me), extremely expensive peripherals (seriously, a damn controller used to be $20. What the hell is all this $40 and $60 shit?) and all the DRM. At the end of the day, consoles have lost all of their advantages in exchange for only some of their enemy's advantages (DLC). PC still has the mods.
The Trials and Perils of Returning to PC
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
EDIT: I've already responded to responses to this several times. If you really want to progress the discussion I recommend seeing another one of my responses and latching on to that instead. I am adding significant edits right now to presuppose some disagreements.
Pros of consoles:
1. Cheap. Edit
Sure, you can get a cheap PC that is good by today's standards and superior to the ps3/360, but one that's better than the ps4 is not going to be $400. It's likely to be four digits)
2. Plug and play. (minimal/no troubleshooting, just have to plug things in and play. Edit: If you build a pc from scratch to get the best deal, that's the definition of not plug and play. If you buy one from a store then it's not only going to be a lot more expensive but drivers and other issues can screw up your game. You also have to worry about hardware specs with each new game you play. I get that Yahtzee said otherwise, but it's not always the case)
3. Generally gauranteed support for nearly a decade at this point. Editmeaning that developers will continue to produce games specifically for the console for the entirety of its lifespan whereas computer hardware will be outdated without them batting an eye).
4. Excellent living room group fun. (PCs still lag behind in multiple controllers Edit: and most games still don't support local split screen gaming. This should change and has gotten better but even Valve games require enabling dev mode and entering some code in a dev console. Not for the faint of heart and usually still not more than two players)
5. Software optimization thanks to known/standardised hardware (the reason a 512Mb console can function like a 2Gb pc). Edit: Let me explain this: Consoles have one set of hardware. Developers know the hardware and test it tirelessly to make their game fit in the console at all costs because of the significant target market it adds. Because PCs have no standard configuration, a lot more juice is required to accomodate for poor optimizations. That's why a pc with the exact same specs as a 360 or ps3 can't play modern games at all but the consoles can.
6. Relatively low piracy, this is a plus for game publishers. Edit: Apparently a lot of people responding to me don't get the word "relatively". Yes, Piracy still happens on consoles but is SO much rarer than pc piracy. Not only does it require significant hardware and software investments but on a PC it's as easy as clicking a link. So there's almost no real reason to pirate on a console.
Consoles have enough advantages to maintain their life expectancy (again, this is games being developed specifically for them). They may get more competition with PCs being released for living room entertainment but these would only be more consoles to compete rather than necessarily a replacement.
It's important to consider that consoles are the steam box for the living room. We just don't like how closed they are while developers do.
Pros of consoles:
1. Cheap. Edit
Sure, you can get a cheap PC that is good by today's standards and superior to the ps3/360, but one that's better than the ps4 is not going to be $400. It's likely to be four digits)2. Plug and play. (minimal/no troubleshooting, just have to plug things in and play. Edit: If you build a pc from scratch to get the best deal, that's the definition of not plug and play. If you buy one from a store then it's not only going to be a lot more expensive but drivers and other issues can screw up your game. You also have to worry about hardware specs with each new game you play. I get that Yahtzee said otherwise, but it's not always the case)
3. Generally gauranteed support for nearly a decade at this point. Edit
meaning that developers will continue to produce games specifically for the console for the entirety of its lifespan whereas computer hardware will be outdated without them batting an eye).4. Excellent living room group fun. (PCs still lag behind in multiple controllers Edit: and most games still don't support local split screen gaming. This should change and has gotten better but even Valve games require enabling dev mode and entering some code in a dev console. Not for the faint of heart and usually still not more than two players)
5. Software optimization thanks to known/standardised hardware (the reason a 512Mb console can function like a 2Gb pc). Edit: Let me explain this: Consoles have one set of hardware. Developers know the hardware and test it tirelessly to make their game fit in the console at all costs because of the significant target market it adds. Because PCs have no standard configuration, a lot more juice is required to accomodate for poor optimizations. That's why a pc with the exact same specs as a 360 or ps3 can't play modern games at all but the consoles can.
6. Relatively low piracy, this is a plus for game publishers. Edit: Apparently a lot of people responding to me don't get the word "relatively". Yes, Piracy still happens on consoles but is SO much rarer than pc piracy. Not only does it require significant hardware and software investments but on a PC it's as easy as clicking a link. So there's almost no real reason to pirate on a console.
Consoles have enough advantages to maintain their life expectancy (again, this is games being developed specifically for them). They may get more competition with PCs being released for living room entertainment but these would only be more consoles to compete rather than necessarily a replacement.
It's important to consider that consoles are the steam box for the living room. We just don't like how closed they are while developers do.
Thank you Yahtzee for explaining to everyone why I'm probably not going to get a console this generation.
I say probably because there is that possibility that they may come out with some sort of exclusive that I must play. But yes, I have been noticing how consoles have adapted all the worst part of pc gaming and not giving us any of the benefits. I used to like to have both a console and a gaming pc in the house but there seems to not be much reason for both anymore as I do need a pc anyway.
I say probably because there is that possibility that they may come out with some sort of exclusive that I must play. But yes, I have been noticing how consoles have adapted all the worst part of pc gaming and not giving us any of the benefits. I used to like to have both a console and a gaming pc in the house but there seems to not be much reason for both anymore as I do need a pc anyway.
While I'm not cheering on the death of consoles, I'll have to disagree. PCs did a lot to bring gaming to the mainstream - just think of the effect Doom had on any workplace/school with computers. And after the console market crashed, it was the Commodore 64, BBC Micro and ZX Spectrum that kept gaming alive with an explosion of indie bedroom developers. And even before the popularization of home consoles, arcades brought gaming to the mainstream with Pac Man and Space Invaders - which were franchises by their own rights. Every platform did their bit to bring gaming to the masses.bobleponge said:
As for accessibility, core console gamers aren't too inviting of the concept. The Wii was all about accessibility, and hardcore gamers hated it. Now it's much more viable that new gamers will cut their teeth in smart phone/tablet games (once again, disregarded by the likes of you and me) with their simple, intuitive controls. It might not seem apparent to you, but the controller you are used to can seem like an aircraft cockpit to a newcomer with its 15 or so buttons - a far cry from the likes of the NES controller that popularized gaming in the '90s.
OT: While I've been a PC gamer my whole life, I always had a soft spot for my friend's PS2. Even as recently as this year we would whip it out for a local MP match of Soul Calibur 3 and Ace Combat Zero. But for the generations after that, consoles somewhat lost their charm after their infatuation with FPS and dark and gritty games in general, which are much better served on the PC anyway. And with the console franchises I'm interested in bothering to bring out barely any installments this generation (only one Armored Core, and a shit Ace Combat, a shit Final Fantasy), getting a console this generation felt like a worthy investment less and less. I hope the likes of From Software keep churning out more PC ports in the future.
But Nintendo still retains its... magic. I wish I had the money to get a WiiU if only for the next Xeno game.
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Between the fact that I am cyberly challenged and that my job revolves around a PC I find a console more relaxing.
Besides they don't make computer monitors as big as TVs yet do they?
Besides they don't make computer monitors as big as TVs yet do they?
1. Nope. They are posting clips on youtube about putting together a $400,- Console Killer. (Better specs all the way)Lightknight said:
2. Yatzee actually covered this. Most things are P&P on the PC and if not a google search will help you fix whatever doesn't.
3. Define support. Support for games? PC has that and even better we have Mods, some even so big that they can be counted as DLC. See Skyrim and Skywind and ofcourse my favourite Jagged Alliance 2 (Still alive after 15 years!)
4. No they don't, only limiting factors are; Can the game support it, do you have enough USB ports for the controllers
5. That was true with the previous gens this gen... They are already lagging behind in every aspect.
6. True, there is less piracy on consoles but publishers actually get less money compared to PC as they have to pay for toolsets, certificates and the share that the console's creators take.
Yes they are called TV's. Some even have a DVI input you can hook the PC up too, but usually a HDMI cable is enoug. Nearly all graphcards have HDMI outputs.Hyperstorm said:
Remember when some people claimed that PC gaming was dead? Turned out they were wrong.
As such, I urge people to not jump to conclusions. Calm down and play nice.
As such, I urge people to not jump to conclusions. Calm down and play nice.
Well I'm glad you felt the need to bring it up before it became toxic in Zero Punctuation (it may still, we don't know).
I love the fact that Nintendo had to be brought up when it came to living room fun. Yeah so long as Nintendo is still around we'll still have living room fun.
I love the fact that Nintendo had to be brought up when it came to living room fun. Yeah so long as Nintendo is still around we'll still have living room fun.
When you add the cost of an HD TV, HDD extensions, extra charge for online MP, the fact that console games cost $10 more than PC versions and aren't discounted as heavily/frequently as Steam sales, the costs keep adding up.Lightknight said:
2. Plug and play. (minimal/no troubleshooting, just have to plug things in)
The flip side being that if something even minute goes wrong, you've to drag it to the store instead of being able to just look up for a fix on the 'net. And if the developer of a game fails to patch a bug (Fez, anything Bethesda on the PS3), then God help you, because there's no community-made mod to sort things out. Not to mention in general games and updates take much longer to DL and install than on a PC (XBL is much slower than Steam).
3. Generally gauranteed support for nearly a decade at this point.
But once the generation is over and the console is bricked, say goodbye to all your online purchases. Not to mention having to rebuy old games as ports on a new platform as well if you want to play them again.
Community-made patches/emulators have kept 20 year old PC games alive, and ironically, almost every single console games up to the Wii through emulation.
4. Excellent living room group fun. (PCs still lag behind in multiple controllers)
Except for console developers have been steadily dropping local multiplayer support for a while now. About the ony ones that still bother are fighting games, which PC versions have as well.
5. Software optimization thanks to known/standardised hardware (the reason a 512Mb console can function like a 2Gb pc).
... while providing lower resolutions, FOV, framerate and online MP player count. As for the XBoxOne, the Windows bloat has been transferred to this generation, with about 20% of HDD space being taken up by the OS and half the cores dedicated to apps running in the background.
6. Relatively low piracy, this is a plus for game publishers.
Relatively high used sale games, which publishers wouldn't shut up about. Plus, with brick and mortar stores and the platform owners taking a hefty cut, revenue from each console game sold is actually lower than a digital PC sale.
Consoles have enough advantages to maintain their life expectancy.[/quote]
The best advantages consoles have are momentum, market visibility and customer loyalty. And even that can change drastically. Compare Wii and WiiU sales.
The only problem with PC gaming is shitty ports. That thing Jim just talked about yesterday. What a coincidence.
They make TVs and big as TVs, and graphics cards these days have either HDMI out or mini-HDMI out so you can hook up to a TV just as easily as a console would. And you can get a nice wireless controller so you can still sit on your couch or whatever and play just like you would a console.Hyperstorm said:
No, I don't think he's trying to say it's dead. I think he's saying that consoles have been trying to become PCs for so long that they've given up the conveniences that made them unique from gaming PCs. I agree. I have a lot of consoles. Mine go all the way back to the Atari 2600. There's definitely a noticeable change in "attitude" in the consoles as you start moving up the line that goes beyond their physical capabilities. You can see the gradual shift from local multiplayer to online multiplayer in units like the Dreamcast or PS2. Online had been tried in other consoles before but those two stand out in my mind as the heralds of the online multiplayer boom in consoles. But even they only offered online multiplayer as a side dish. It wasn't the main event. I think what our man Yahtzee is getting at is that this shift of focus to online multiplayer is harmful to consoles. Consoles used to be able to fill a niche, (ease of setup, the nearly instant gratification of a cart or CD/Bluray spooling up without a lot of hassle etc), gaming PCs could not. That niche is being reduced by console makers themselves and it's harmful to their industry. Dude's not saying console gaming is dead. Dude's saying console manufacturers are making a mistake by removing the features from consoles that makes them special. That's my take anyway. What do you think?Zhukov said:
Zhukov said:
When the PS4 and xBone have the first and second largest pre-holiday sales for any home console ever respectively, it is hard to believe they are anywhere near dead.BloodRed Pixel said:
The old console experience of popping in something and having it playable in seconds... In order to truely compete that will need to make a comeback soon. First, though, wild tangent's patents need to expire. [http://www.alexstjohn.com/WP/2013/07/25/the-advent-of-web-3d/]
Edit: (Though through foot-in-mouth and memory of in spoiler box) I'll claim credit for inspiring St. John's essay ;o) [http://www.alexstjohn.com/WP/2013/07/17/poor-microsoft/#comment-452]
Yeah I second the Alienware wankery. Being one of those who don't like them either my reason is not because they make bad machines, but rather since they were bought out by HP their cost vs the quality of what you got for your money went rather downhill. While many of us in the PC camp are guilty of being dicks to people who buy them, the Alienware vs another PC company is nearly the same argument Yahtzee is making for PC over Consoles. In their heyday Alienware was good value because it did something better than the competition. It wasn't just about having top of the line components, but having machines specifically built and tweaked to give their utmost gaming performance. Now days though they do about the same as the competition but you pay more for the brand name. And some of us in PC land find that unpalatable.Phrozenflame500 said:
Anyway I agree that consoles these days don't offer much in the way of features that made consoles so popular in the first place. Lower cost, convenience of use, a large library of "quality games", those have all gone out the window. Though that last complaint can be leveled against the AAA game industry for the PC as well.
Anyway I'll stick to PC. However that choice isn't made because the quality of gaming. My reason is because I have the freedom to do a hell of a lot more with my machine than just play video games or stream media. And I can build it myself or install whatever programs or operating systems I so choose. Instead of being shackled with a Console that is to PCs what Dustin Hoffman's Rainman, is to a normal human being.
And parting shot. I've messed about with computers for decades, I honestly fail to understand these console players horror stories of incompatibility problems or having to struggle through tons of configuration issues before playing games. I play games from the 1990s up to the present day with no issues or difficult tinkering needed.
Take Yahtzee's story about having to re-enable something in the sound card control panel to get sound out of Bioshock. Not sure why that was a issue in the first place, or even if it was why it was such a big deal. The fix was simple enough. ... Well unless Yahtzee was silly enough to have Windows 8 installed on his PC rather than Window 7 ... Dear God Yahtzee!! Tell me you didn't do that!! *rolls eyes* Oh Jesus fucking Christ on a pogo stick!! Bad Newb Yahtzee!! BAD NEWB!!! XD
I was a Nintendo kid who moved to PC in between the gamecube/Wii era. I eventually got a PS3, but that collects dust now since I mainly use WiiU or PC for everything. PC just offers more games at better prices with the ability to improve them or add to them with mods if I felt like my game could stand a slight upgrade.
Raiyan 1.0 said:
Would both of you be willing to put together a $400 "console killer" for me? I have yet to find anyone on this forum who can prove that it is possible. PCs are no doubt more powerful. but from what I can see, console is still the best at power vs. cost.EXos said:
One of the best posts I've seen on this thread. Console gaming has certainly picked up some bad habits, but calling it dead is probably going to far.FallenMessiah88 said:
Time will see if consoles will adapt to the change in markets. They might do well, (I.E. find what they can offer and push that, like Steam did for PC's) or they might fall apart (See gaming arcades and coin op).