The White Male

[BytByte]

That Aardvark up there said good stuff, you should listen to him. I just want to add to the people who say they don't care if someone is white/black/female/gay, some people do. People identify with certain traits, and they connect with them more. I loved the shit outta the Dark Knight and Bruce being gay wouldn't have changed that. But when the jock from Paranorman was excited to tell his boyfriend about his experiences or Korra and Asami hold hands, it is something I can relate to more.

And again, it's not an effort to change existing white characters or rewrite the past, but more encouraging people of different backgrounds to express what they want, rather than feel like the only way they could be allowed to make a game or movie is if their protagonist is a white guy

 

[Mong0]

I agree with you. I'm not sure how anyone can advocate for the removal of a character type based solely on race or sex and not consider it racist or sexist.

Who's advocating they be removed? So far, people are only advocating that the proportions shift-- white male heroes would still be there (obviously).

I think that this proportion shift will result from characters that were meant to be white or male being changed or outright replaced. Certain people have been trying to eliminate or change aspects games they find offensive for while now, and usually only succeed after the game has already been designed. I don't think that race or sex will be handled much differently than anything else that's bitched about.

 

[Silvanus]

I think that this proportion shift will result from characters that were meant to be white or male being changed or outright replaced.

Well, that's speculation on your part, then. People aren't advocating that white male characters go away.

Certain people have been trying to eliminate or change aspects games they find offensive for while now, and usually only succeed after the game has already been designed. I don't think that race or sex will be handled much differently than anything else that's bitched about.

Firstly, plenty of people don't find the existence of straight white characters "offensive", but would still like more variety. I'm one of them, as are most of the people arguing for this on this forum.

Secondly, people have been criticising elements of art since art began-- every medium, every period. It's not always about things being "offensive": criticism covers personal preferences and artistic/ design considerations, too, remember.

So these "certain people" are... well, really every critic, unless we start drawing arbitrary lines between what is legitimate criticism and what is illegitimate criticism.

 

[Jack Action]

You really can't reduce the entire mythology of Pandora to "a woman got curious and opened a box." She was explicitly created as punishment for humanity by an angry Zeus after Prometheus gave them the gift of fire. Women were a curse upon literal mankind and their utopia, and the first woman was given the container for evil because she would go on to open it and bring suffering to man.

As to the rest of Greek mythology, I laugh. For one, Athena is an incredibly masculine figure, and the "evil man that causes bad stuff" is as vague a reference as any; there are lots of bad men and women doing lots of bad stuff. Zeus and Poseidon are probably the worst ones, but they're portrayed pretty positively.

The box was the punishment, not Pandora. Pandora was the, well, bait. She was supposed to be welcomed where humans lived, and Zeus was well aware the humans would ask her what was in the box until she opened it. If anything, that makes Zeus the dick for giving her a closed box, not telling her what's inside it, and then shipping her off to where not only her own curiosity but also the nagging of others would push her to open it. And also for punishing humanity for something they had no hand in.

Hell, Pandora herself tried to close the box when she realized what was going on. Too late, granted, but it's the thought that counts, right?

And I question your definition of "positively," given that damn near everyone involved in Greek myth was an irredeemable asshole. It's not the Bible, the gods weren't supposed to be perfect and pure, they were fickle dickholes who were only in charge because of their power. And occasionally they felt merciful and granted mortals boons, but mostly they were dicks.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

I have no issue with protagonists of any heritage. White male? No worries. Black? No problem. Female? All good in the hood. I don't think we need more or less of anything. Artists have a right to create what they choose and companies have a right to create what they believe sells. We as the consumer have a right to choose whether to buy it or not. I don't believe "diversity" for its own sake adds anything to any medium.

If someone thinks a demographic is underrepresented, they can create a game to represent them and steal the market. It's that simple. Alternatively, become a major shareholder in an existing publisher and become a meddling executive.

I think an easy solution to all the problems is for all publishers to create one game per year with a black, lesbian, wheelchair-bound hindu protagnonist. This will tick all the inclusiveness boxes and shut the SJWs and feminists up, then they can release other games without anyone complaining.

 

[Silvanus]

3. You might have the argument with Eve, but Pandora didn't open the box by malice but by curiosity (IE not a primarily female trait or even a bad one)

That is true. However, a look at a few of the lines from Hesiod;

"...And he bade famous Hephaestus make haste and mix earth with water and to put in it the voice and strength of human kind, and fashion a sweet, lovely maiden-shape, like to the immortal goddesses in face; and Athena to teach her needlework and the weaving of the varied web; and golden Aphrodite to shed grace upon her head and cruel longing and cares that weary the limbs. And he charged Hermes the guide, the Slayer of Argus, to put in her a shameless mind and a deceitful nature.

[...]

And Epimetheus did not think on what Prometheus had said to him, bidding him never take a gift of Olympian Zeus, but to send it back for fear it might prove to be something harmful to men. But he took the gift, and afterwards, when the evil thing was already his, he understood.

Keeping in mind that Pandora is much more than simply an individual woman; she is the first woman, the primogenitor, who brings "weariness" and destruction upon the men. The "shameless mind" and "deceitful nature" speak to common ancient criticisms of womankind.

 

[Jack Action]

So your interpretation of the myth is that the gods created women, a brand new gender, for the sole sake of opening a box? That the all-male utopia being destroyed by the introduction of women, that women were created for no other reason than as a punishment for men, carries no connotations? Not even from the incredibly misogynistic Greeks of the classical world?

...wat? How in the... No. Whatever utopia you're thinking of wasn't destroyed by women, it was destroyed by the contents of the box. Pandora wasn't what caused harm. Second, given the existence of goddesses, I'm not quite sure how Pandora was of a brand new gender. Third, again, what all-male utopia? There was no utopia, Zeus was just pissed the humans got fire, and mildly worried they might at some point be a thorn in his side because of said fire; he decided to delay that as long as possible.

Being portrayed as fickle and imperfect is not the same thing as being portrayed negatively or even neutrally. Throughout many of the myths Zeus is portrayed as the father of heroes who helps them on their quests and fights against the enemies of civilization. Though Poseidon is a bit iffy and shouldn't have been included, I admit, but he was one of the Greek's patron deities due to their naval activities.

Edit: I was saving these for later, but since Silvanus had to go ahead of me and quote Hesiod, I might as well do it now, though I'll have to not use Works and Days.

From her is the race of women and female kind:
of her is the deadly race and tribe of women who
live amongst mortal men to their great trouble,
no helpmates in hateful poverty, but only in wealth.

Yes, he does do good things from time to time. But that doesn't change the fact that a good number of the fuckups in the mythology are his direct fault, because he's a short-tempered loon drunk on power who no one dares challenge openly. The heroes he helps provide him with entertainment, and are usually related to him. No one worships/obeys him because they like him, they worship and obey because the dude could murder anything.

That's... not a positive portrayal.

 

[Lavaeolus]

2. That being said, if you want a game with a black protagonist, buy from an african gaming developer (or movie studio), chinese, buy from a game company in china... etc. Guess what, the character's race is heavily dependant on where the company is located and the writers (AKA the high amount of jews in comics).

Speaking of course in aggregates, a generic minority from one specific country is probably going to be very different from someone who's the dominant ethnicity in some other country. Their culture could be, probably would be, completely different. If you wanted to have a game to represent you, say, as an white American, a game set in Britain from a British perspective is probably not going to be your tastes, nor an Argentine one. Unless you intend merely on stating "This is what happens" -- which only serves to explain how things are, rather than how they should be.

I have no issue with protagonists of any heritage. White male? No worries. Black? No problem. Female? All good in the hood. I don't think we need more or less of anything. Artists have a right to create what they choose and companies have a right to create what they believe sells. We as the consumer have a right to choose whether to buy it or not. I don't believe "diversity" for its own sake adds anything to any medium.

If someone thinks a demographic is underrepresented, they can create a game to represent them and steal the market. It's that simple. Alternatively, become a major shareholder in an existing publisher and become a meddling executive.

Easier said than done, really, that last bit. Even an indie game is hell to make, assuming you had the time to realistically make an attempt on your own, god forbid trying to advertise it. Although I agree outright forcing AA developers to have X character is probably not the most ideal solution, nor one anyone is really hammering for.

 

[Jack Action]

Prior to Pandora, the first woman, the world was in the Golden Age, where all men were immortal and hardworking and well-fed, and no women existed other than those amongst the gods. And then Zeus sent Pandora and womenkind to ruin it. Sure, the box of evils takes the prominent role in ruining things, but women weren't just a means of delivering it.

"...And he bade famous Hephaestus make haste and mix earth with water and to put in it the voice and strength of human kind, and fashion a sweet, lovely maiden-shape, like to the immortal goddesses in face; and Athena to teach her needlework and the weaving of the varied web; and golden Aphrodite to shed grace upon her head and cruel longing and cares that weary the limbs. And he charged Hermes the guide, the Slayer of Argus, to put in her a shameless mind and a deceitful nature.

[...]

And Epimetheus did not think on what Prometheus had said to him, bidding him never take a gift of Olympian Zeus, but to send it back for fear it might prove to be something harmful to men. But he took the gift, and afterwards, when the evil thing was already his, he understood.

Women were part of the punishment. They were evil and deceitful and brought ruin to mankind. Had there been no box, they would still be considered a punishment, as deceitful natures and evil things rarely benefit an immortal Golden Age.

I can't find any mention of a golden age of immortal men before Pandora, in either Works and Days, nor in Theogony. Both refer to garden-variety humans as mortals. And admittedly I did forget about Pandora being custom-made as a strife-inducing tool, but... she's still not as bad as what the box contained, nor is it her fault it was open. As the bit quoted there points out, if you're going to blame Pandora, you might as well also blame Epimetheus, since he didn't send the gift back.

You're going to have to find someone saying that people only worshiped Zeus because they were afraid of him for me to actually take what you say as a legitimate observation of ancient Greek society. Because, otherwise, Zeus acting like the incredibly powerful asshole he was wasn't going to sabotage his image amongst a bunch of assholes who thought they, Zeus' followers, were the greatest and only civilized people in the world.

What, you mean... just like every other civilization ever? The Greeks didn't have a monopoly at the whole "we're civilized, the other guys are filthy barbarians" thing. They weren't even the best at it. And sabotage what image?
"Displease the big guy and he'll lightning you" isn't exactly a difficult concept. In fact, it's been used to ensure compliance in most western religions.

I'm not saying they worshiped the guy exclusively because they were afraid of him, what I'm saying is they didn't worship him because they liked him, necessarily; his more extreme tendencies aside, it's kinda hard to have a civilization built around giving in to thoughtless rage.

Which I would consider fair, given that we don't have a live ancient Greek on hand to tell us whether they actually liked their gods or not.

 

[Jack Action]

a golden race of mortal men who lived in the time of Cronos when he was reigning in heaven. And they lived like gods without sorrow of heart, remote and free from toil and grief: miserable age rested not on them; but with legs and arms never failing they made merry with feasting beyond the reach of all evils. When they died, it was as though they were overcome with sleep, and they had all good things; for the fruitful earth unforced bare them fruit abundantly and without stint. They dwelt in ease and peace upon their lands with many good things, rich in flocks and loved by the blessed gods.
Source [http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/works.htm]

You skipped right over the good bit, which came after that.

(ll. 121-139) But after earth had covered this generation -- they are called pure spirits dwelling on the earth, and are kindly, delivering from harm, and guardians of mortal men; for they roam everywhere over the earth, clothed in mist and keep watch on judgements and cruel deeds, givers of wealth; for this royal right also they received;

That is, they died. And they're described as being during the time of Cronos; when Zeus wasn't in charge.

I assume you were looking for this:

(ll. 90-105) For ere this the tribes of men lived on earth remote and free from ills and hard toil and heavy sickness which bring the Fates upon men; for in misery men grow old quickly.

And while "not as bad" is certainly better than being as bad as the container of all the world's evils, it's not exactly a good thing to inflict upon people, is it? Also, they probably do blame Epimetheus, who was tempted by woman into accepting the downfall of mankind, it's just that Epimetheus isn't the first man to exist who was created for the express purpose of accepting bad gifts.

He was still the moron who accepted a gift from a very pissed-off Zeus despite having been warned not to. And my point was that Pandora wasn't responsible for the box getting opened, which we seem to now agree on.

I don't actually consider it fair to speak for a civilization based on nothing but theoretical conclusions of what you think people worship and don't worship and why.

Well, then, it's a good thing I didn't question whether they worshiped or not, isn't it? Especially since the gods didn't like it when you didn't worship.

 

[Jack Action]

Well I already admitted I was mistaken when it came to immortality, so I don't really see how a line about them dying is relevant. As for Cronos, it simply states that they lived during Cronos' reign, not that they died before Zeus came to power. Also since women are said to exist in the Silver Age and the Golden Age is without suffering, Pandora would, by necessity, have to have appeared between the two, meaning that Zeus was in charge and ordering her creation during the Golden Age.

Not necessarily. Given that all the generations were wiped out, there would have been no way for the fire to have been transmitted between them, especially since each generation was created by the gods. Since Pandora and the box were punishment for accepting the fire, it seems more likely that Pandora was created at the start of the fifth generation, yes?

He was a moron amongst many other men, unlike Pandora who happened to be the first woman and whose most notable contribution to anything was being a deceitful thing that unleashed suffering upon mankind. We can argue that she's not responsible for opening the box, because who can resist opening boxes, but that doesn't make her any less of a punishment upon man.

A missile seems like a lesser punishment than a missile loaded with anthrax. Not that the missile has much say in it.

Well, it's a good thing I also threw that "why" word in there, isn't it? You know, since you keep trying to speak as to why they worshiped the gods?

Actually, no, I'm just trying to point out that the Greek gods don't exactly qualify as role models, hence the focus on people LIKING them.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

I know. That's what I'm so frustrated about.

Well, like nearly every popular Marvel superhero that Disney doesn't own the movie & television rights to, Wolverine has been killed, retired or shelved. And I've heard that Hugh Jackman believes that he only has one more Wolverine movie left in him at this junction of his career. My biggest frustration with this is that just because [insert white character here] goes away, doesn't mean that the audience to that movie is willing to watch [whatever particular Ism or Ist wants to shove down people's throats].