The White Male

[Jack Action]

You really can't reduce the entire mythology of Pandora to "a woman got curious and opened a box." She was explicitly created as punishment for humanity by an angry Zeus after Prometheus gave them the gift of fire. Women were a curse upon literal mankind and their utopia, and the first woman was given the container for evil because she would go on to open it and bring suffering to man.

As to the rest of Greek mythology, I laugh. For one, Athena is an incredibly masculine figure, and the "evil man that causes bad stuff" is as vague a reference as any; there are lots of bad men and women doing lots of bad stuff. Zeus and Poseidon are probably the worst ones, but they're portrayed pretty positively.

The box was the punishment, not Pandora. Pandora was the, well, bait. She was supposed to be welcomed where humans lived, and Zeus was well aware the humans would ask her what was in the box until she opened it. If anything, that makes Zeus the dick for giving her a closed box, not telling her what's inside it, and then shipping her off to where not only her own curiosity but also the nagging of others would push her to open it. And also for punishing humanity for something they had no hand in.

Hell, Pandora herself tried to close the box when she realized what was going on. Too late, granted, but it's the thought that counts, right?

And I question your definition of "positively," given that damn near everyone involved in Greek myth was an irredeemable asshole. It's not the Bible, the gods weren't supposed to be perfect and pure, they were fickle dickholes who were only in charge because of their power. And occasionally they felt merciful and granted mortals boons, but mostly they were dicks.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

I have no issue with protagonists of any heritage. White male? No worries. Black? No problem. Female? All good in the hood. I don't think we need more or less of anything. Artists have a right to create what they choose and companies have a right to create what they believe sells. We as the consumer have a right to choose whether to buy it or not. I don't believe "diversity" for its own sake adds anything to any medium.

If someone thinks a demographic is underrepresented, they can create a game to represent them and steal the market. It's that simple. Alternatively, become a major shareholder in an existing publisher and become a meddling executive.

I think an easy solution to all the problems is for all publishers to create one game per year with a black, lesbian, wheelchair-bound hindu protagnonist. This will tick all the inclusiveness boxes and shut the SJWs and feminists up, then they can release other games without anyone complaining.

 

[Silvanus]

3. You might have the argument with Eve, but Pandora didn't open the box by malice but by curiosity (IE not a primarily female trait or even a bad one)

That is true. However, a look at a few of the lines from Hesiod;

"...And he bade famous Hephaestus make haste and mix earth with water and to put in it the voice and strength of human kind, and fashion a sweet, lovely maiden-shape, like to the immortal goddesses in face; and Athena to teach her needlework and the weaving of the varied web; and golden Aphrodite to shed grace upon her head and cruel longing and cares that weary the limbs. And he charged Hermes the guide, the Slayer of Argus, to put in her a shameless mind and a deceitful nature.

[...]

And Epimetheus did not think on what Prometheus had said to him, bidding him never take a gift of Olympian Zeus, but to send it back for fear it might prove to be something harmful to men. But he took the gift, and afterwards, when the evil thing was already his, he understood.

Keeping in mind that Pandora is much more than simply an individual woman; she is the first woman, the primogenitor, who brings "weariness" and destruction upon the men. The "shameless mind" and "deceitful nature" speak to common ancient criticisms of womankind.

 

[Jack Action]

So your interpretation of the myth is that the gods created women, a brand new gender, for the sole sake of opening a box? That the all-male utopia being destroyed by the introduction of women, that women were created for no other reason than as a punishment for men, carries no connotations? Not even from the incredibly misogynistic Greeks of the classical world?

...wat? How in the... No. Whatever utopia you're thinking of wasn't destroyed by women, it was destroyed by the contents of the box. Pandora wasn't what caused harm. Second, given the existence of goddesses, I'm not quite sure how Pandora was of a brand new gender. Third, again, what all-male utopia? There was no utopia, Zeus was just pissed the humans got fire, and mildly worried they might at some point be a thorn in his side because of said fire; he decided to delay that as long as possible.

Being portrayed as fickle and imperfect is not the same thing as being portrayed negatively or even neutrally. Throughout many of the myths Zeus is portrayed as the father of heroes who helps them on their quests and fights against the enemies of civilization. Though Poseidon is a bit iffy and shouldn't have been included, I admit, but he was one of the Greek's patron deities due to their naval activities.

Edit: I was saving these for later, but since Silvanus had to go ahead of me and quote Hesiod, I might as well do it now, though I'll have to not use Works and Days.

From her is the race of women and female kind:
of her is the deadly race and tribe of women who
live amongst mortal men to their great trouble,
no helpmates in hateful poverty, but only in wealth.

Yes, he does do good things from time to time. But that doesn't change the fact that a good number of the fuckups in the mythology are his direct fault, because he's a short-tempered loon drunk on power who no one dares challenge openly. The heroes he helps provide him with entertainment, and are usually related to him. No one worships/obeys him because they like him, they worship and obey because the dude could murder anything.

That's... not a positive portrayal.

 

[Lavaeolus]

2. That being said, if you want a game with a black protagonist, buy from an african gaming developer (or movie studio), chinese, buy from a game company in china... etc. Guess what, the character's race is heavily dependant on where the company is located and the writers (AKA the high amount of jews in comics).

Speaking of course in aggregates, a generic minority from one specific country is probably going to be very different from someone who's the dominant ethnicity in some other country. Their culture could be, probably would be, completely different. If you wanted to have a game to represent you, say, as an white American, a game set in Britain from a British perspective is probably not going to be your tastes, nor an Argentine one. Unless you intend merely on stating "This is what happens" -- which only serves to explain how things are, rather than how they should be.

I have no issue with protagonists of any heritage. White male? No worries. Black? No problem. Female? All good in the hood. I don't think we need more or less of anything. Artists have a right to create what they choose and companies have a right to create what they believe sells. We as the consumer have a right to choose whether to buy it or not. I don't believe "diversity" for its own sake adds anything to any medium.

If someone thinks a demographic is underrepresented, they can create a game to represent them and steal the market. It's that simple. Alternatively, become a major shareholder in an existing publisher and become a meddling executive.

Easier said than done, really, that last bit. Even an indie game is hell to make, assuming you had the time to realistically make an attempt on your own, god forbid trying to advertise it. Although I agree outright forcing AA developers to have X character is probably not the most ideal solution, nor one anyone is really hammering for.

 

[Jack Action]

Prior to Pandora, the first woman, the world was in the Golden Age, where all men were immortal and hardworking and well-fed, and no women existed other than those amongst the gods. And then Zeus sent Pandora and womenkind to ruin it. Sure, the box of evils takes the prominent role in ruining things, but women weren't just a means of delivering it.

"...And he bade famous Hephaestus make haste and mix earth with water and to put in it the voice and strength of human kind, and fashion a sweet, lovely maiden-shape, like to the immortal goddesses in face; and Athena to teach her needlework and the weaving of the varied web; and golden Aphrodite to shed grace upon her head and cruel longing and cares that weary the limbs. And he charged Hermes the guide, the Slayer of Argus, to put in her a shameless mind and a deceitful nature.

[...]

And Epimetheus did not think on what Prometheus had said to him, bidding him never take a gift of Olympian Zeus, but to send it back for fear it might prove to be something harmful to men. But he took the gift, and afterwards, when the evil thing was already his, he understood.

Women were part of the punishment. They were evil and deceitful and brought ruin to mankind. Had there been no box, they would still be considered a punishment, as deceitful natures and evil things rarely benefit an immortal Golden Age.

I can't find any mention of a golden age of immortal men before Pandora, in either Works and Days, nor in Theogony. Both refer to garden-variety humans as mortals. And admittedly I did forget about Pandora being custom-made as a strife-inducing tool, but... she's still not as bad as what the box contained, nor is it her fault it was open. As the bit quoted there points out, if you're going to blame Pandora, you might as well also blame Epimetheus, since he didn't send the gift back.

You're going to have to find someone saying that people only worshiped Zeus because they were afraid of him for me to actually take what you say as a legitimate observation of ancient Greek society. Because, otherwise, Zeus acting like the incredibly powerful asshole he was wasn't going to sabotage his image amongst a bunch of assholes who thought they, Zeus' followers, were the greatest and only civilized people in the world.

What, you mean... just like every other civilization ever? The Greeks didn't have a monopoly at the whole "we're civilized, the other guys are filthy barbarians" thing. They weren't even the best at it. And sabotage what image?
"Displease the big guy and he'll lightning you" isn't exactly a difficult concept. In fact, it's been used to ensure compliance in most western religions.

I'm not saying they worshiped the guy exclusively because they were afraid of him, what I'm saying is they didn't worship him because they liked him, necessarily; his more extreme tendencies aside, it's kinda hard to have a civilization built around giving in to thoughtless rage.

Which I would consider fair, given that we don't have a live ancient Greek on hand to tell us whether they actually liked their gods or not.

 

[Jack Action]

a golden race of mortal men who lived in the time of Cronos when he was reigning in heaven. And they lived like gods without sorrow of heart, remote and free from toil and grief: miserable age rested not on them; but with legs and arms never failing they made merry with feasting beyond the reach of all evils. When they died, it was as though they were overcome with sleep, and they had all good things; for the fruitful earth unforced bare them fruit abundantly and without stint. They dwelt in ease and peace upon their lands with many good things, rich in flocks and loved by the blessed gods.
Source [http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/works.htm]

You skipped right over the good bit, which came after that.

(ll. 121-139) But after earth had covered this generation -- they are called pure spirits dwelling on the earth, and are kindly, delivering from harm, and guardians of mortal men; for they roam everywhere over the earth, clothed in mist and keep watch on judgements and cruel deeds, givers of wealth; for this royal right also they received;

That is, they died. And they're described as being during the time of Cronos; when Zeus wasn't in charge.

I assume you were looking for this:

(ll. 90-105) For ere this the tribes of men lived on earth remote and free from ills and hard toil and heavy sickness which bring the Fates upon men; for in misery men grow old quickly.

And while "not as bad" is certainly better than being as bad as the container of all the world's evils, it's not exactly a good thing to inflict upon people, is it? Also, they probably do blame Epimetheus, who was tempted by woman into accepting the downfall of mankind, it's just that Epimetheus isn't the first man to exist who was created for the express purpose of accepting bad gifts.

He was still the moron who accepted a gift from a very pissed-off Zeus despite having been warned not to. And my point was that Pandora wasn't responsible for the box getting opened, which we seem to now agree on.

I don't actually consider it fair to speak for a civilization based on nothing but theoretical conclusions of what you think people worship and don't worship and why.

Well, then, it's a good thing I didn't question whether they worshiped or not, isn't it? Especially since the gods didn't like it when you didn't worship.

 

[Jack Action]

Well I already admitted I was mistaken when it came to immortality, so I don't really see how a line about them dying is relevant. As for Cronos, it simply states that they lived during Cronos' reign, not that they died before Zeus came to power. Also since women are said to exist in the Silver Age and the Golden Age is without suffering, Pandora would, by necessity, have to have appeared between the two, meaning that Zeus was in charge and ordering her creation during the Golden Age.

Not necessarily. Given that all the generations were wiped out, there would have been no way for the fire to have been transmitted between them, especially since each generation was created by the gods. Since Pandora and the box were punishment for accepting the fire, it seems more likely that Pandora was created at the start of the fifth generation, yes?

He was a moron amongst many other men, unlike Pandora who happened to be the first woman and whose most notable contribution to anything was being a deceitful thing that unleashed suffering upon mankind. We can argue that she's not responsible for opening the box, because who can resist opening boxes, but that doesn't make her any less of a punishment upon man.

A missile seems like a lesser punishment than a missile loaded with anthrax. Not that the missile has much say in it.

Well, it's a good thing I also threw that "why" word in there, isn't it? You know, since you keep trying to speak as to why they worshiped the gods?

Actually, no, I'm just trying to point out that the Greek gods don't exactly qualify as role models, hence the focus on people LIKING them.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

I know. That's what I'm so frustrated about.

Well, like nearly every popular Marvel superhero that Disney doesn't own the movie & television rights to, Wolverine has been killed, retired or shelved. And I've heard that Hugh Jackman believes that he only has one more Wolverine movie left in him at this junction of his career. My biggest frustration with this is that just because [insert white character here] goes away, doesn't mean that the audience to that movie is willing to watch [whatever particular Ism or Ist wants to shove down people's throats].

 

[Magmarock]

Snip

*Tilts head* Who said I didn't buy any? I said that the white man was a creative safe zone. I've got games like Far Cry 4 and Assassin's Creed 3.

But do you have Shadow Warrior 2013? Because if you don't have that you are missing out sir.

 

[Magmarock]

Snip

*Tilts head* Who said I didn't buy any? I said that the white man was a creative safe zone. I've got games like Far Cry 4 and Assassin's Creed 3.

Well I'm not some kind of super hacker who taps into other peoples PC's to win arguments... or am I >.>

 

[Olas]

Ya, I don't really care if the characters in a story are white or not, or American for that matter. Seems like a stupid thing to get worked up about.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Nope. A Canadian Heterosexual white male is just as safe and boring as an American one. ...In fact...

http://cdn1-www.superherohype.com/assets/uploads/2013/11/xmenorigins-wolverine.jpg

Yup, just as boring

Nothing wrong with the archetype inherently , but let's not pretend it isn't a massive safe zone that gets treated as default for arbitrary reasons.

So they do it because it's "safe" but for "arbitrary reasons"?... Sounds a bit like you're saying they do it for a specific reason but for reasonless reasons.

I don't think white characters are boring. I mean... Do you just mean aesthetically? If Wolverine is black starting in 2016, is he an intrinsically more interesting character, even if they keep everything else the same?

Ignoring that people would be pissed off if you alter an iconic character in any way... Let's suppose Wolverine was always black, and with exactly the same stories and events... Is he more interesting than the Wolverine we already have? Just by virtue of darker skin? Or do they need to alter his origins, or give him stereotypically-black affectations or something? Does his blackness have to become a focal point of the character to be valid?

Help me understand exactly what it is that you desire.

 

[Silence]

People who complain about only white males have not enough knowledge about video games.

Yes, I said it. Fuck it.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I'm not saying that characters are automatically better because they're black. I'm saying that the entertainment industry favors white heterosexual males as main characters, and it just gets frustrating after awhile. That and because so many companies don't care about good story telling, the white heterosexual males they put out tend to be rather badly written. It sucks on two levels.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Snip

I'm not saying that characters are automatically better because they're black. I'm saying that the entertainment industry favors white heterosexual males as main characters, and it just gets frustrating after awhile. That and because so many companies don't care about good story telling, the white heterosexual males they put out tend to be rather badly written. It sucks on two levels.

Ok, so you're frustrated.

When you say "badly written" that's an opinion. When you say "don't care" you're assigning intent. The former is fair, the latter kinda isn't. Who are these companies? Would you please name some of them?

 

[Robert B. Marks]

And if you don't mean Americans, then isn't having a problem with the color of someone's skin kind of, I don't know, racist?

It really depends on the context.

In my entire writing career, there is only one moment I am ashamed of - I once bought that argument you mention here and allowed one of my characters to be whitewashed in a science fiction story. The character in question was based on my best friend from high school, who was a first generation immigrant from Zimbabwe, quite black, and easily one of the best, if not THE best, programmers in the entire school. The editor in question removed one word from the descriptive sentence about him - "black" - and when I protested, hit me with the "does it really matter what colour his skin is - isn't caring about that kind of racist?" argument.

I wasn't prepared for that argument at the time, so I let it happen, and the word was removed. I should have said, "YES. It matters. It matters because he's based on a very real friend of mine who was black, and it matters because we live in a world with many minorities, and they WILL have a place of honour in the future. And for that matter, why do YOU care what colour he is?" But, I didn't say those things, and to this day I feel shame over it.

There is a distinct difference between adding voices and taking them away/preventing them from showing up. If the "does it really matter what colour somebody's skin is?" argument is being used to keep minority or non-Steve characters out of stories, then yes, it is racist. If it's being used to justify putting them in, then no, it's not. The former serves as a barrier, and the latter serves to enable.

(For the record, I am being vague about names for a reason, and the editor who did this is now long gone from the publication in question.)

(Edited to remove typos, and holy crap did I typo on this one...)

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I'm not saying that characters are automatically better because they're black. I'm saying that the entertainment industry favors white heterosexual males as main characters, and it just gets frustrating after awhile. That and because so many companies don't care about good story telling, the white heterosexual males they put out tend to be rather badly written. It sucks on two levels.

Ok, so you're frustrated.

When you say "badly written" that's an opinion. When you say "don't care" you're assigning intent. The former is fair, the latter kinda isn't. Who are these companies? Would you please name some of them?

Activision is a pretty good one to name off, same with EA (Constantly homogenizing their games into bland boring crap, then axing the developer) and Ubi"Programing women is too hard for the game we have eight teams working on"soft. Mostly AAA developers really, though I imagine the publishers have a lot to do with it.

 

[Zontar]

You're referring to the people who complain about shoehorning, tokenism and shoving it down their throats right? Here's a thought. Maybe we can start remembering that both sides of this discussion have extreme assholes and we can work on rooting them out rather than just the ones on the other side.

I wasn't taking a side, so much as I was stating the fact that the "diversity at any cost" crowd is full of hypocrits because they are both the first and the loudest to cry out against any portrayal of women and minorities which doesn't conform to their very narrow view of how they should be portrayed.

While there are assholes on both sides, the hypocrisy which is exclusive to one of them is what makes them worst then the other.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Snip

I'm not saying that characters are automatically better because they're black. I'm saying that the entertainment industry favors white heterosexual males as main characters, and it just gets frustrating after awhile. That and because so many companies don't care about good story telling, the white heterosexual males they put out tend to be rather badly written. It sucks on two levels.

Ok, so you're frustrated.

When you say "badly written" that's an opinion. When you say "don't care" you're assigning intent. The former is fair, the latter kinda isn't. Who are these companies? Would you please name some of them?

Activision is a pretty good one to name off, same with EA (Constantly homogenizing their games into bland boring crap, then axing the developer) and Ubi"Programing women is too hard for the game we have eight teams working on"soft. Mostly AAA developers really, though I imagine the publishers have a lot to do with it.

And to your mind these are all examples of companies not caring about story telling?

When you say "Activision" I assume you mean CoD. They make genuine effort for those CoD games, I don't buy that they "don't care". I don't buy that EA don't care either. I think they try, I think they try hard... I think people just fail sometimes despite their best efforts. That's life. That's the reality of being in a creative field... The examples of glowing, transcendent work are always so few in number compared to those that are bad/mediocre or just fall flat despite the creators best intentions.

The Ubisoft example is ridiculous... It's not related. PR flubbery under scrutiny about why their game isn't different doesn't mean they don't care. If the release of the game was anything to go by, it would seem they already had too much on their plate for their allotted timescale. Angry twitter mobs that decided this was an issue 3 months before the game is supposed to come out were never going to be appeased. There was only 1 playable character, anyway... Arno. Arno with a purple cape and a beard slapped on is still Arno. Let's be real. There was basically zero customisation. Women weren't specifically left out. Everyone who wasn't Arno was left out...