The whole holding-a-door-thing

Jorpho

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Augh, door holding! I would gladly give up ever having a door held for me if it meant never having to hold a door for someone ever again. Maybe 15% of the time it just so happens to go smoothly. The remaining 85% of the time it requires far too much perfect positioning intricately choreographed between complete strangers to possibly be worthwhile for either party. Even disabled folks with crutches or wheelchairs seem to have mastered getting doors open on their own to such a degree that attempting to hold the door more often than not is just getting in their way. Man, woman, it matters not.

Yes, sometimes getting my bike out through the door of the apartment building is a smidge awkward, and sometimes I manage to accidentally smack myself in the shins with the pedals ? but guess what? If you're going to try to stand there in some weird place while I'm attempting maneuvers, there's a decent chance I might accidentally smack you, and then I'll take the blame.

And what makes it worst of all is that people get so damn uppity about the whole experience all the damn time. "Hurry up, I'm holding the door for you" ? yeah, well, I didn't ask to hold the door, so why don't you just get moving and have a little faith that I'm capable of using my arms? Or maybe I'm out of breath or slightly distracted so I don't have a chance to turn and mumble "Thank you" in time before you deliver some smarmy passive-aggressive "You're welcome" before you go storming off and ruining my day.

It's getting so bad I'm darn near inclined to back up and find some other entrance the next time I see someone holding the door. Can't we all just agree to give up the whole blasted business once and for all?
 

Saltyk

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DudeistBelieve said:
No, I think you did the right thing and shrugged and walked away. That's kinda what I was driving at, her response had nothing to do with you and everything to do with her. I wouldn't want to even waste a second more being angry about it.

Sexism and all the other identity politics bullshit is absolutely true, I do believe that. but some people take it such a radical extent that, ya know what? You're not gonna win those people over and it's not even worth trying. I'm talking like that woman weeks back who was cornering this white kid about his dreadlocks. I tend to find those are the people that say shit like "I'm an ally" or "White Privilege", and I treat them like I do the people the people who call others "cucks" and "Special Snowflake".

I give them a wide fucking birth cause they don't seem to be people I wanna be friends with... And just as well, cause I don't think they'd wanna be friends with me either.

Just to bring it back why not even to be angry about it, the SJW types love to dismiss an individuals feelings but, ultimately you do know your own heart and you know why you open the door for her. As long as you feel like you were doing it just to be polite, like thats all that really matters. They love breaking people down and trying to come up with reasons for peoples actions man, doesn't make it right or true.
Cool. There is common ground here, then. By which I mean I pretty much agree with everything you just said. And I actually did sneak the "ally" line in just because I find the idea to be ridiculous.

For the record, the time I mentioned really wasn't a big deal, but I brought it up as people were insisting that it never happens. But as several people in this thread have attested it actually does happen. It's rare. I've only ever had one person ever do it and I can safely say I've probably held the door open for at least one person most everyday for the last 20 or so years. But to say no one thinks or acts this way is a bit disingenuous.
 

Lightknight

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This is a fun little issue with two sides expecting polar opposite things from the same guy. One side thinks you're rude if you don't hold the door open for them and the other side thinks you're calling them weak if you do it.

I personally would rather do something nice for the people who appreciate it than pander to the people who honestly believe me holding a door open means I respect their competence less as a person. I really don't need to spend my life worrying about people who just negatively stereotype men all day because they are trying to be nice. Maybe save it for the actual chauvinist actions, eh? Not the niceties.
 

Qizx

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Secondhand Revenant said:
Qizx said:
Eh, my mother always taught me to hold a door open for a woman. She's also quite the feminist so I don't think I'm being sexist holding a door open for a woman. Granted I will most certainly hold open a door for a man, child, even an Italian.
I mean, really? My mother said this and she's a feminist is a reason to believe something? Just believing everything your parents say is excusable when you're growing up for a bit, but by the time you're an adult you should have a reason for your opinions, not outsource the thinking
My mother taught me to hold a door open for a woman.

My mother is quite a feminist.

Therefore I don't think holding doors open for women is sexist.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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Qizx said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
Qizx said:
Eh, my mother always taught me to hold a door open for a woman. She's also quite the feminist so I don't think I'm being sexist holding a door open for a woman. Granted I will most certainly hold open a door for a man, child, even an Italian.
I mean, really? My mother said this and she's a feminist is a reason to believe something? Just believing everything your parents say is excusable when you're growing up for a bit, but by the time you're an adult you should have a reason for your opinions, not outsource the thinking
My mother taught me to hold a door open for a woman.

My mother is quite a feminist.

Therefore I don't think holding doors open for women is sexist.
That has no real original thought in it, just mimicking what someone else believes
 

manic_depressive13

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The problem with holding doors is that it is a bullshit "chivalrous" custom, as well as simply a polite thing to do. When some guys think they are winning brownie points by doing uncomfortable, time wasting bullshit like walking all the way around to the passenger side of a car to open the fucking door for you, that's annoying. Doubly so when they get freaking offended when you politely tell them they don't need to do that. It's conceivable that someone who is frequently on the receiving end of this bullshit may mistake the regular, polite door holding for the awkward, smarmy kind of door holding. Now I don't think people should just blow up at someone without knowing what they intended, but it shouldn't be that hard to see where they're coming from.

Having said that, I've never even seen this happen.
 

Shiver Me Tits

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Secondhand Revenant said:
Qizx said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
Qizx said:
Eh, my mother always taught me to hold a door open for a woman. She's also quite the feminist so I don't think I'm being sexist holding a door open for a woman. Granted I will most certainly hold open a door for a man, child, even an Italian.
I mean, really? My mother said this and she's a feminist is a reason to believe something? Just believing everything your parents say is excusable when you're growing up for a bit, but by the time you're an adult you should have a reason for your opinions, not outsource the thinking
My mother taught me to hold a door open for a woman.

My mother is quite a feminist.

Therefore I don't think holding doors open for women is sexist.
That has no real original thought in it, just mimicking what someone else believes
Or agreeing with them? You could possibly cast this in something other than the worst light you know, it might not kill you.
 

9tailedflame

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Yea, i don't get that. If I'm opening a door for myself, and anybody is also going through, I'll hold it open, it's not a gender thing, it's just common courtesy.
 
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I've held the door open for countless people, male and female, and I've never had a problem. Some of them thank me, others nod, and a few just walk in without saying or doing anything. No man or woman has ever given me a dirty look for it. Frankly, I feel as though it's just the right thing to do. Especially for the elderly, pregnant, disabled, or anyone carrying or pushing an object with both hands.

What I find odd is when someone is entering a building and holds the door open for the next person who is a ways away. Whenever someone does this for me, I rush over so that I don't keep 'em waiting there.


RJ 17 said:
Evidently it's called "Benevolent Sexism". Anything that used to be called "polite" can now be considered benevolent sexism if there's a woman involved.
Benevolent sexism is actually real. Basically, if anyone treats women like like they're fragile and must be protected, then they are engaging in benevolent sexism. This Bustle article gives some good examples. 3 that I don't agree with, "Women are just more beautiful", "I love Women", and "Men are assholes.", but the rest are fine.
 

Wary Wolf

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I also hold the door open for men and dogs. Lady, if you feel you're less than both of those then I'll keep the damn door closed next time.
 

Suhi89

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This is one of those things that I'm not sure happens. I mean, I'm sure it happens in the sense that there are a bunch of crazy people and so almost everything happens but, as someone who holds doors open for everyone, I've never seen it. I also hang around Tumblr and Twitter and I don't remember seeing complaints about it there either.

Something I have seen a fair amount of is threads like these. Now I can't say for sure that these are more common than the things that they're complaining about, but it seems that way from my experience.
 

Avnger

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I usually put anyone who complains about "women getting mad about door holding" into the 'nice guy' mental category. It usually seems to come from the same type of "I did something nice for a girl so she owes me" thought process. Anything that is less than absolute praise and acknowledgement of how nice they were is seen as an insult.
 

Lightknight

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Avnger said:
I usually put anyone who complains about "women getting mad about door holding" into the 'nice guy' mental category. It usually seems to come from the same type of "I did something nice for a girl so she owes me" thought process. Anything that is less than absolute praise and acknowledgement of how nice they were is seen as an insult.
Your sentence is a little hard for me to parse. Are you saying that guys who complain about women getting mad about door holding are usually the same people who feel that people owe them something when they do something nice?

I'd say that if I try to do something nice I should at least be able to expect the person not to ***** at me for thoughts or mentalities they somehow mentally project on me. Does that count as feeling owed?

And how about people who at least want a thank you or some sort of acknowledgement that they put forth an effort? I wouldn't think they're being unreasonable, especially if they're doing it for men and women alike. That's common courtesy that is well within the realm of social contract. No different than expecting someone to acknowledge you if you say hello or wave.
 

Phasmal

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Lightknight said:
Avnger said:
I usually put anyone who complains about "women getting mad about door holding" into the 'nice guy' mental category. It usually seems to come from the same type of "I did something nice for a girl so she owes me" thought process. Anything that is less than absolute praise and acknowledgement of how nice they were is seen as an insult.
Your sentence is a little hard for me to parse. Are you saying that guys who complain about women getting mad about door holding are usually the same people who feel that people owe them something when they do something nice?

I'd say that if I try to do something nice I should at least be able to expect the person not to ***** at me for thoughts or mentalities they somehow mentally project on me. Does that count as feeling owed?

And how about people who at least want a thank you or some sort of acknowledgement that they put forth an effort? I wouldn't think they're being unreasonable, especially if they're doing it for men and women alike. That's common courtesy that is well within the realm of social contract. No different than expecting someone to acknowledge you if you say hello or wave.
I remember a while ago on this forum being called rude by an American user for saying I don't smile at people in the street. There are no set in stone rules for interacting with strangers. Where I live, if you go around smiling and saying hi to people they will probably quickly avert their eyes and keep walking. Gotta love that British repression. (No, seriously, I love it, who has time to smile at strangers all day?).

As I said before, though you can hope for things when you interact with strangers, strangers don't owe you anything. Not even a hello or a wave.

Perhaps it's a pity, I dunno. Personally I'm big on not talking to strangers unless it's necessary.
 

Avnger

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Lightknight said:
Avnger said:
I usually put anyone who complains about "women getting mad about door holding" into the 'nice guy' mental category. It usually seems to come from the same type of "I did something nice for a girl so she owes me" thought process. Anything that is less than absolute praise and acknowledgement of how nice they were is seen as an insult.
Your sentence is a little hard for me to parse. Are you saying that guys who complain about women getting mad about door holding are usually the same people who feel that people owe them something when they do something nice?
That's roughly what I was trying to get at but a bit more nuanced (My phrasing was a bit odd there).

Lightknight said:
I'd say that if I try to do something nice I should at least be able to expect the person not to ***** at me for thoughts or mentalities they somehow mentally project on me. Does that count as feeling owed?
Ah, no. This is not what I was referring to. Again, my fault for poor phrasing. Though to be fair, we all mentally project reasoning for others actions onto them. Maybe the person getting angry at you (generic you) for holding the door is upset about something else and you happened to be in the wrong spot at the wrong time? Most of us would probably assume the angry person was just being awful about the door though =/

Lightknight said:
And how about people who at least want a thank you or some sort of acknowledgement that they put forth an effort? I wouldn't think they're being unreasonable, especially if they're doing it for men and women alike. That's common courtesy that is well within the realm of social contract. No different than expecting someone to acknowledge you if you say hello or wave.
Yes and no to this one. If you're (again, generic) going out into society expecting to be rewarded, even with just a thank you, for anything nice that you do, "you're going to have a bad time." Oh it's definitely basic decency to acknowledge when someone does something nice. Honestly though, if you're actually getting upset about it, that might be a good time to take a look inwards at yourself.

The overall point I was trying to make wasn't about simply being nice though and getting, say, a thank you from it. Most of us appreciate acknowledgement when we do nice things for others. On the other hand especially for something so minor, most of us don't get so angry that we hold onto it and have to complain about it on social media and/or various forums. Those that do get that angry seem, to me, to be working from the same mindset of 'Nice Guys.'

Notice how you also never hear about guys complaining about men getting angry at them for holding the door? That is a thing that happens too, but it doesn't play as well into the "victimized by women" narrative some hold onto.
 
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There's not really any accounting for how other people are going to perceive what you do. I'll hold the door open for anyone (meaning holding it open after passing through it, so it doesn't swing back at the next person), it's generally seen as bad-manners not to. Asides from one disabled man taking offense and yelling at me it's been smooth-sailing.

Tumblr gonna Tumblr. It's best not to get involved.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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Shiver Me Tits said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
Qizx said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
Qizx said:
Eh, my mother always taught me to hold a door open for a woman. She's also quite the feminist so I don't think I'm being sexist holding a door open for a woman. Granted I will most certainly hold open a door for a man, child, even an Italian.
I mean, really? My mother said this and she's a feminist is a reason to believe something? Just believing everything your parents say is excusable when you're growing up for a bit, but by the time you're an adult you should have a reason for your opinions, not outsource the thinking
My mother taught me to hold a door open for a woman.

My mother is quite a feminist.

Therefore I don't think holding doors open for women is sexist.
That has no real original thought in it, just mimicking what someone else believes
Or agreeing with them? You could possibly cast this in something other than the worst light you know, it might not kill you.
If you agree with the content you don't need to put things like 'My mom's a feminist'. If someone is including a silly appeal to authority like that they clearly aren't doing much to think of any actual merits of their position
 

Lightknight

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Phasmal said:
I remember a while ago on this forum being called rude by an American user for saying I don't smile at people in the street. There are no set in stone rules for interacting with strangers. Where I live, if you go around smiling and saying hi to people they will probably quickly avert their eyes and keep walking. Gotta love that British repression. (No, seriously, I love it, who has time to smile at strangers all day?).
Who goes around smiling all the time? That would feel weird. It isn't rude not to initiate contact with others in the vast majority of the situation but it would be rude if someone smiled and said hello to you but you ignored them. Something I doubt most people would do.

I have heard that us Americans smile way too much according to other cultures.

As I said before, though you can hope for things when you interact with strangers, strangers don't owe you anything. Not even a hello or a wave.
It's not an owing so much as a basic social obligation. Anyone has the ability to be rude and be a dick. They don't have to be nice. But social convention advocates for being polite and social. Take it or leave it but that's the norm. Sometimes I fail at that too (either through error or not caring).

I'm torn on whether or not I'd like to see that kind of social convention squashed. I feel like it's beginning to happen anyways due to population size and online interactions taking the role of public socializing. I do think something is lost when we can't express any vulnerability amongst strangers. But it is also uncomfortable and occasionally risky. I know if I were small or a girl I'd be even more wary of it.

Perhaps it's a pity, I dunno. Personally I'm big on not talking to strangers unless it's necessary.
Oh, God no. I hate strangers. I mean, I'd save them if they needed saving but otherwise, fuck 'em. I'm not talking about doing things because you want to, I'm talking about doing things out of social contract and basic social obligations. Whether right or wrong or solid or not, they do generally exist.

It's a very interesting sociology experiment to determine what social norms with stranger interactions exist and how they change by region.
 

Lightknight

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Avnger said:
Lightknight said:
Avnger said:
I usually put anyone who complains about "women getting mad about door holding" into the 'nice guy' mental category. It usually seems to come from the same type of "I did something nice for a girl so she owes me" thought process. Anything that is less than absolute praise and acknowledgement of how nice they were is seen as an insult.
Your sentence is a little hard for me to parse. Are you saying that guys who complain about women getting mad about door holding are usually the same people who feel that people owe them something when they do something nice?
That's roughly what I was trying to get at but a bit more nuanced (My phrasing was a bit odd there).
Okay, good. I was worried I'd gotten you wrong and strawmanned you in subsequent comments. Thanks for confirming.

Ah, no. This is not what I was referring to. Again, my fault for poor phrasing. Though to be fair, we all mentally project reasoning for others actions onto them. Maybe the person getting angry at you (generic you) for holding the door is upset about something else and you happened to be in the wrong spot at the wrong time? Most of us would probably assume the angry person was just being awful about the door though =/
Actions are best understood on face value unless you are given more information. If I hold a door open for someone, they have no idea why I'm doing it and so it's wrong to assume my motivations given the limited information. If someone is complaining that I had the gall to just extend a basic courtesy (that I would do for literally anyone, except this person a second time) then all I have to go on is their actions and it would be likewise silly to assume that they're secretly not mad at me and my actions. Essentially, that assumption would be that they are lying.

I will say that a kind response typically disarms the situation. But in-congruent social behavior (returning nice for bad) is difficult to maintain sometimes.

So I take it you have absolutely no problem with people who genuinely hold the door open to be polite and nice?

Yes and no to this one. If you're (again, generic) going out into society expecting to be rewarded, even with just a thank you, for anything nice that you do, "you're going to have a bad time." Oh it's definitely basic decency to acknowledge when someone does something nice. Honestly though, if you're actually getting upset about it, that might be a good time to take a look inwards at yourself.
You kind of agreed with me here. You acknowledged that it is considered a social norm to acknowledge niceties.

If a person is getting really angry at a total stranger being rude, like super angry, then yeah, they need to schedule some counseling to work out those long standing childhood issues before they snap.

But in general, it is natural human evolution to feel miffed if someone is rude to you. So I don't blame people who feel put off by it.

What's strange is that I just realized that I don't actually pay attention or feel offended when not acknowledged. I just hold the door open automatically like it's my job and if it brightens someone's day then I'm glad but if not I was just fulfilling a function. Weird, I'd never realized that about the autonomy of habitually holding doors for others. In myself at least.

The overall point I was trying to make wasn't about simply being nice though and getting, say, a thank you from it. Most of us appreciate acknowledgement when we do nice things for others. On the other hand especially for something so minor, most of us don't get so angry that we hold onto it and have to complain about it on social media and/or various forums. Those that do get that angry seem, to me, to be working from the same mindset of 'Nice Guys.'
Okay, here's where my confusion lies. Is your "nice guys" category false niceness? Seems like you need one more word to make the group make sense or to swap out "Nice" for something like conniving or whatever synonym you'd have for people who always do things in order to get things in return. Though that's something I've seen a lot of girls do too with largely transactional relationships. So even the "guys" category is a bit iffy but I certainly agree that in the context of this issue we are largely talking guys holding a door open for a girl.

Notice how you also never hear about guys complaining about men getting angry at them for holding the door? That is a thing that happens too, but it doesn't play as well into the "victimized by women" narrative some hold onto.
I would suspect that men have little or no reason to get mad at this practice. The women who get mad typically take it as a slight against their gender, so they have some kind of internal reason of believing that a person holding the door for them must inherently think the female gender incapable of handling a door when they're usually just treating them like a person who deserves an easy nicety.