Theft by Creativity

[IamLEAM1983]

You're not getting what I'm saying. They could turn that humble fan project into an official Nintendo (or insert major AAA company here) product. Officially stamp their brand on it, hire the people making it, and profit from the results.

You're also not getting me. Or rather, you're not getting the concept of a Japanese company's image. Public face is everything to Nintendo, as it is with Sega and Sony. You're assuming they'd be capable of considering the benefits of altruism, and I'm telling you they won't. They won't, because doing otherwise would be an admission of failure.

 

[Starke]

I figure it's a tad more nuanced. Copyright owners have to report violations to maintain their IP, sure, but what *constitutes* a violation is up for debate and is subjective.

This is utterly false and untrue.

Dilution is an element in trademark law, not copyright.

Intellectual Property is a catch all term for copyright, trademark, and patent law. But, they are not the synonymous. It's like saying, "well cats are cold blooded, because snakes are cold blooded, and their all animals, right?" Copyright Law and Trademark law are completely different animals with different functions and purposes. Copyright is, "I made this, it's mine, you can't make a duplicate and sell that as yours." Trademark is, "I'm selling stuff, and this is how I label my products so you know they came from me, you can't use that label and sell your stuff while pretending to be me."

You cannot lose your copyright due to not enforcing it. In fact, it's really hard to lose your trademark from non-enforcement. It's theoretically possible, and has happened, but it's vanishingly rare.

 

[K12]

The question I'd like answered is this.

If these dumb fiddly parts of copyright law are such a burden on these huge companies then why are they not lobbying to amend the law. It seems like the current law is hurting both sides (based on the apologist's description anyway) so why not get the double whammy of good PR AND protecting their own interests?

 

[Canadamus Prime]

You're not getting what I'm saying. They could turn that humble fan project into an official Nintendo (or insert major AAA company here) product. Officially stamp their brand on it, hire the people making it, and profit from the results.

You're also not getting me. Or rather, you're not getting the concept of a Japanese company's image. Public face is everything to Nintendo, as it is with Sega and Sony. You're assuming they'd be capable of considering the benefits of altruism, and I'm telling you they won't. They won't, because doing otherwise would be an admission of failure.

I'm not just talking about Nintendo though. I'm talking any big entertainment corporation (read: plague) that pulls this shit, like say completely random example pulled from my ass, Paramount. Besides isn't what I'm suggesting essentially what Sega is doing with that upcoming Sonic Mania thing?

Edit: Also how would it be an admission of failure?

 

[The Bucket]

That is incredibly short sighted and stupid.

Of course it's short sighted and stupid, it's never been about making sense or even simply about making money, it's about CONTROL. It's about making sure they have the power to screw over their customers and they don't have any other options but to just take it, and to make frivolous nonsensical lawsuits over supposed infringement of their "rights" to something, just so they can make millions off of settlement or even stealing the IPs of other companies right out from under them, all while crushing the little up and comers like these fans before they can even get started. Like all monopolies it's about making sure THEY have sole control over the production of these IPs and copyrights for as long as possible.

I'd be amazed if settlements over copyright disputes formed an even remotely significant portion of Nintendos revenue.

 

[immortalfrieza]

That is incredibly short sighted and stupid.

Of course it's short sighted and stupid, it's never been about making sense or even simply about making money, it's about CONTROL. It's about making sure they have the power to screw over their customers and they don't have any other options but to just take it, and to make frivolous nonsensical lawsuits over supposed infringement of their "rights" to something, just so they can make millions off of settlement or even stealing the IPs of other companies right out from under them, all while crushing the little up and comers like these fans before they can even get started. Like all monopolies it's about making sure THEY have sole control over the production of these IPs and copyrights for as long as possible.

I'd be amazed if settlements over copyright disputes formed an even remotely significant portion of Nintendos revenue.

They get money out of it if it's against a middle or other big developer, but it's mostly about about having an excuse to squash the little guys before they become even remotely anyone could call "competition" and to swoop down and swipe their IPs when the little guys or even other big companies go broke because of all the frivolous lawsuits. Vultures don't care about fairness or sense.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

The thing that is really baffling about these sorts of things is that if the company doesn't want to do anything with the IPs themselves, why not license them out to devs/creators that want to do something with them? They could them make money off of zero effort on their own part.

They did, it was called Metroid: Other M and we all remember how that turned out.

I've often wondered why these companies don't hire the developers of these fan-projects to turn said projects into official releases that they can then profit off of. That would make much more business and PR sense to me.

With two major failures in recent history in the Metroid franchise, Metroid: Other M and Federation Force there are only two things they can do currently. Bring it in house and try to make people forget the recent failures, or put the franchise to bed for a while like they did after the fans went insane over Metroid: Fusion and Metroid: Zero Mission being too linear. Considering Star Fox seeing a remaster and a remake, one somewhat successful on handheld, the other a massive flop due to irritating controls... Plus the recent letdowns with Metroid, we'll be extremely lucky to see anything new unless it's already in development.

 

[Starke]

The question I'd like answered is this.

If these dumb fiddly parts of copyright law are such a burden on these huge companies then why are they not lobbying to amend the law. It seems like the current law is hurting both sides (based on the apologist's description anyway) so why not get the double whammy of good PR AND protecting their own interests?

They're not. That's not how copyright works at all. The compelled to defend their IP is an element of trademark law, and the odds of loosing a mark to dilution are almost nil anyway.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I've often wondered why these companies don't hire the developers of these fan-projects to turn said projects into official releases that they can then profit off of. That would make much more business and PR sense to me.

With two major failures in recent history in the Metroid franchise, Metroid: Other M and Federation Force there are only two things they can do currently. Bring it in house and try to make people forget the recent failures, or put the franchise to bed for a while like they did after the fans went insane over Metroid: Fusion and Metroid: Zero Mission being too linear. Considering Star Fox seeing a remaster and a remake, one somewhat successful on handheld, the other a massive flop due to irritating controls... Plus the recent letdowns with Metroid, we'll be extremely lucky to see anything new unless it's already in development.

I didn't realize Federation Force was a failure (or even out yet), although that doesn't surprise me. Nevertheless it's too late for them to do that for AM2R anyway since it's already finished. If they had contacted the developers mid-development then they could've capitalized on it.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I've often wondered why these companies don't hire the developers of these fan-projects to turn said projects into official releases that they can then profit off of. That would make much more business and PR sense to me.

With two major failures in recent history in the Metroid franchise, Metroid: Other M and Federation Force there are only two things they can do currently. Bring it in house and try to make people forget the recent failures, or put the franchise to bed for a while like they did after the fans went insane over Metroid: Fusion and Metroid: Zero Mission being too linear. Considering Star Fox seeing a remaster and a remake, one somewhat successful on handheld, the other a massive flop due to irritating controls... Plus the recent letdowns with Metroid, we'll be extremely lucky to see anything new unless it's already in development.

I didn't realize Federation Force was a failure (or even out yet), although that doesn't surprise me. Nevertheless it's too late for them to do that for AM2R anyway since it's already finished. If they had contacted the developers mid-development then they could've capitalized on it.

To be blunt, Nintendo was never going to fund a bedroom project/third party, done by a gaijin, on a third party platform(the PC). Nintendo has been burned separately and together by all combinations of those factors so many times, they're not going to do that with any of their first party franchises again. Their first party franchises are basically going to remain limited to first party hardware, while being developed in house in Japan. The only exception going foreword is going to be mobile platforms probably, but that depends on heavily on how well Pokemon Go works out.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I've often wondered why these companies don't hire the developers of these fan-projects to turn said projects into official releases that they can then profit off of. That would make much more business and PR sense to me.

With two major failures in recent history in the Metroid franchise, Metroid: Other M and Federation Force there are only two things they can do currently. Bring it in house and try to make people forget the recent failures, or put the franchise to bed for a while like they did after the fans went insane over Metroid: Fusion and Metroid: Zero Mission being too linear. Considering Star Fox seeing a remaster and a remake, one somewhat successful on handheld, the other a massive flop due to irritating controls... Plus the recent letdowns with Metroid, we'll be extremely lucky to see anything new unless it's already in development.

I didn't realize Federation Force was a failure (or even out yet), although that doesn't surprise me. Nevertheless it's too late for them to do that for AM2R anyway since it's already finished. If they had contacted the developers mid-development then they could've capitalized on it.

To be blunt, Nintendo was never going to fund a bedroom project/third party, done by a gaijin, on a third party platform(the PC). Nintendo has been burned separately and together by all combinations of those factors so many times, they're not going to do that with any of their first party franchises again. Their first party franchises are basically going to remain limited to first party hardware, while being developed in house in Japan. The only exception going foreword is going to be mobile platforms probably, but that depends on heavily on how well Pokemon Go works out.

Well hire them to develop it for the 3DS or something then. I don't know, I don't know anything about business. It just seems to me that it's an opportunity to make money and save face with the fans (regardless of how in the right legally they are). They do realize that the fans don't give a shit about the legalities. All they see is the big corporate monster squashing the little guy. Of course the fans are also morons who won't stop buying their stuff regardless.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Well hire them to develop it for the 3DS or something then. I don't know, I don't know anything about business. It just seems to me that it's an opportunity to make money and save face with the fans (regardless of how in the right legally they are). They do realize that the fans don't give a shit about the legalities. All they see is the big corporate monster squashing the little guy. Of course the fans are also morons who won't stop buying their stuff regardless.

The thing is, Metroid is a first party franchise and Nintendo has gotten burned letting third parties develop for those too many times. At any rate Nintendo is gonna do what they're gonna do what they want, because they're kinda to the point where they've outlived their usefulness.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Well hire them to develop it for the 3DS or something then. I don't know, I don't know anything about business. It just seems to me that it's an opportunity to make money and save face with the fans (regardless of how in the right legally they are). They do realize that the fans don't give a shit about the legalities. All they see is the big corporate monster squashing the little guy. Of course the fans are also morons who won't stop buying their stuff regardless.

The thing is, Metroid is a first party franchise and Nintendo has gotten burned letting third parties develop for those too many times. At any rate Nintendo is gonna do what they're gonna do what they want, because they're kinda to the point where they've outlived their usefulness.

I'm not sure what "too many times" you're referring to. The Zelda Oracle series developed by Capcom was rather good and the original Metroid Prime games developed by Retro Studios were also very successful. The only colossal failure in recent memory was Other M.

 

[Yopaz]

I've often wondered why these companies don't hire the developers of these fan-projects to turn said projects into official releases that they can then profit off of. That would make much more business and PR sense to me.

The sad truth is that they already got developers, they don't have a need to hire new ones just because they are talented. Let's face it there are plenty of incredibly talented developers out there, many of them are hired by various companies, others spend their time working dead end jobs because there simply isn't anything available. If talent was all you needed to get a job these people may have been hired by someone, I don't know enough to say if these people are of average or above average talent, but they have enough to impress many of us at least.

What if they were to hire the guy behind the Metroid remake. Well, would he fit in work environment? Would he be a good team player? An employer needs to be certain of all these things before hiring and it's a process where less qualified people may be hired simply because he gets along better with those who decides who gets the job. Now this guy already got a job so it's not like this will be a huge blow, but it would put him in a difficult position as far as hiring goes. It was a project he did because he wanted to learn. I admire his efforts and understand both his choices and his motivation.

It's a shame that this remake never made it to official channels, but a Nintendo game available through digital channels on Nintendo platforms isn't expected to be accepted by Nintendo if it is released on a non-Nintendo platform (PC). You see it as a loss of profit, Nintendo sees this as loss of platform exclusivity.

Edit: Also about saving face amongst fans. Yes, they really need to do something in that regard soon. Fans project shut down, Lets Plays and sound track videos being taken down. Now with all the ambiguous information about the NX and uncertain future of the Wii U or 3DS since they refuse to give straight answers about their plans I am uncertain whether I will ever trust Nintendo enough to buy a new console. I say this as a person who spends most of my gaming on the 3DS and is actually happy with my purchase of a Wii U.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I've often wondered why these companies don't hire the developers of these fan-projects to turn said projects into official releases that they can then profit off of. That would make much more business and PR sense to me.

The sad truth is that they already got developers, they don't have a need to hire new ones just because they are talented. Let's face it there are plenty of incredibly talented developers out there, many of them are hired by various companies, others spend their time working dead end jobs because there simply isn't anything available. If talent was all you needed to get a job these people may have been hired by someone, I don't know enough to say if these people are of average or above average talent, but they have enough to impress many of us at least.

What if they were to hire the guy behind the Metroid remake. Well, would he fit in work environment? Would he be a good team player? An employer needs to be certain of all these things before hiring and it's a process where less qualified people may be hired simply because he gets along better with those who decides who gets the job. Now this guy already got a job so it's not like this will be a huge blow, but it would put him in a difficult position as far as hiring goes. It was a project he did because he wanted to learn. I admire his efforts and understand both his choices and his motivation.

It's a shame that this remake never made it to official channels, but a Nintendo game available through digital channels on Nintendo platforms isn't expected to be accepted by Nintendo if it is released on a non-Nintendo platform (PC). You see it as a loss of profit, Nintendo sees this as loss of platform exclusivity.

Edit: Also about saving face amongst fans. Yes, they really need to do something in that regard soon. Fans project shut down, Lets Plays and sound track videos being taken down. Now with all the ambiguous information about the NX and uncertain future of the Wii U or 3DS since they refuse to give straight answers about their plans I am uncertain whether I will ever trust Nintendo enough to buy a new console. I say this as a person who spends most of my gaming on the 3DS and is actually happy with my purchase of a Wii U.

The thing is, they already have a team together that they can work with. I'm presuming the Metroid 2 remake wasn't being made by one guy. I'm hearing a lot of people tell me reasons why Nintendo would never do it, but they're all incredibly stupid reasons. So the only reason Nintendo would never legitimize a fan project is because their stupid and have their head up their ass. Understood.

 

[Yopaz]

The thing is, they already have a team together that they can work with. I'm presuming the Metroid 2 remake wasn't being made by one guy. I'm hearing a lot of people tell me reasons why Nintendo would never do it, but they're all incredibly stupid reasons. So the only reason Nintendo would never legitimize a fan project is because their stupid and have their head up their ass. Understood.

Actually, it was made by one guy and even if it were a team, that would require more resources in hiring the whole team.
You say you've heard multiple reasons, but nine of them good, are you sure that you don't mean that you've refused to accept them.

1: Resources. It's not too long ago that the bosses in Nintendo declined their bonuses in order to keep from firing employees. They aren't in a position to hire new people without a really good reason. A fan project is not something amazing enough to risk firing other employees who already work there, especially considering that the guy who made this project already got a job.

2: Resources part 2. "But Nintendo got enough resoures to stand losing money for ages before going bankrupt!" Yes, Nintendo can last a long time without earning anything, but what of the shareholders? If the shareholders start seeing their investment ceasing to gain interest how long before the bosses of Nintendo are in the unemployment line?

3: Existing talent. Nintendo already got lots of talented developers working for them. This guy is a professional (he's got education and he's got a job in the field) and has done a good job making this game, but it's not like developers at Nintendo couldn't do the same. In fact they did just that 15 years ago although with severe limitations in graphics and colour palette. If they wanted to make this again they could do it easily without hiring new staff.

4: Financial interest: How much money do you think they could make in hiring this guy? The game has already been released for free and lots of people downloaded it. The people who were quick to download it are the ones who are most interested in the game, thus by now they most likely have it and wouldn't really have a reason to buy it again. Nintendo would also have to work it over, make sure it holds up to the standards they demand, pay to get it licenced, realesed and rated, pay the ones involved in making it, porting it to the WiiU or 3DS, pay bug testers and maybe put some money into marketing it. Or they could let it be on PC... a competing platform.

5: Loss of platform exclusivity. Releasing it on PC, maybe through Steam and GOG. Some people would buy it I guess. Now why would people buy a Nintendo console if you could get their games on a better platform? The WiiU is the weakest console and all the consoles are actually fairly weak so that's saying something. Most laptops can play this game and some toasters probably have the hardware required to run it. Then why waste money on a crappy console that can play it?

6. Programming for Nintendo platforms. If they are going to hire this guy, could he seamlessly start working on games intended for Nintendo platforms? The people working for Nintendo already have already been trained for that purpose and it is different from working on a game for PC. Even if Nintendo were to let the Metroid remake or the Pokemon remake be on PC, what about future projects? Should they start a PC branch just because someone was able to make a PC remake? Should they train someone to use the developer kits for 3DS and WiiU because he can program on PC.

7. There are tons of fan projects, which ones should they hire? There are no shortage of fans with talent who wants to use Nintendo's assets and ideas as a primer to learn how to make games themselves. There was the Pokemon Uranium game recently and there are many more. Imagine that they are going to sift through all the fan projects for talented developers that they can hire. They would need to hire a team to play crappy unbalanced games in search of the few great ones. Then they would need to hire them and get the game released before it was played for free by anyone interested in playing it already got it for free.

I've given you 7 reasons why hiring this guy isn't as easy as you think it to be, If none of these are good, please explain why they aren't good. I'm by no means an expert in business economy so some of my reasoning might not be that good, but I assure you someone who is would find even more reasons. Someone who knows programming better than me would be able to give you more reasons. Someone who knows how the mess of copyright and business law would be able to help all of us get more confused and have us repeating things we do not understand in forum threads making those people more confused than us.

I don't disagree with you that this sucks. The game looks like something I'd like if I were a Metroid fan.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

The thing is, they already have a team together that they can work with. I'm presuming the Metroid 2 remake wasn't being made by one guy. I'm hearing a lot of people tell me reasons why Nintendo would never do it, but they're all incredibly stupid reasons. So the only reason Nintendo would never legitimize a fan project is because their stupid and have their head up their ass. Understood.

Actually, it was made by one guy and even if it were a team, that would require more resources in hiring the whole team.
You say you've heard multiple reasons, but nine of them good, are you sure that you don't mean that you've refused to accept them.

1: Resources. It's not too long ago that the bosses in Nintendo declined their bonuses in order to keep from firing employees. They aren't in a position to hire new people without a really good reason. A fan project is not something amazing enough to risk firing other employees who already work there, especially considering that the guy who made this project already got a job.

2: Resources part 2. "But Nintendo got enough resoures to stand losing money for ages before going bankrupt!" Yes, Nintendo can last a long time without earning anything, but what of the shareholders? If the shareholders start seeing their investment ceasing to gain interest how long before the bosses of Nintendo are in the unemployment line?

3: Existing talent. Nintendo already got lots of talented developers working for them. This guy is a professional (he's got education and he's got a job in the field) and has done a good job making this game, but it's not like developers at Nintendo couldn't do the same. In fact they did just that 15 years ago although with severe limitations in graphics and colour palette. If they wanted to make this again they could do it easily without hiring new staff.

4: Financial interest: How much money do you think they could make in hiring this guy? The game has already been released for free and lots of people downloaded it. The people who were quick to download it are the ones who are most interested in the game, thus by now they most likely have it and wouldn't really have a reason to buy it again. Nintendo would also have to work it over, make sure it holds up to the standards they demand, pay to get it licenced, realesed and rated, pay the ones involved in making it, porting it to the WiiU or 3DS, pay bug testers and maybe put some money into marketing it. Or they could let it be on PC... a competing platform.

5: Loss of platform exclusivity. Releasing it on PC, maybe through Steam and GOG. Some people would buy it I guess. Now why would people buy a Nintendo console if you could get their games on a better platform? The WiiU is the weakest console and all the consoles are actually fairly weak so that's saying something. Most laptops can play this game and some toasters probably have the hardware required to run it. Then why waste money on a crappy console that can play it?

6. Programming for Nintendo platforms. If they are going to hire this guy, could he seamlessly start working on games intended for Nintendo platforms? The people working for Nintendo already have already been trained for that purpose and it is different from working on a game for PC. Even if Nintendo were to let the Metroid remake or the Pokemon remake be on PC, what about future projects? Should they start a PC branch just because someone was able to make a PC remake? Should they train someone to use the developer kits for 3DS and WiiU because he can program on PC.

7. There are tons of fan projects, which ones should they hire? There are no shortage of fans with talent who wants to use Nintendo's assets and ideas as a primer to learn how to make games themselves. There was the Pokemon Uranium game recently and there are many more. Imagine that they are going to sift through all the fan projects for talented developers that they can hire. They would need to hire a team to play crappy unbalanced games in search of the few great ones. Then they would need to hire them and get the game released before it was played for free by anyone interested in playing it already got it for free.

I've given you 7 reasons why hiring this guy isn't as easy as you think it to be, If none of these are good, please explain why they aren't good. I'm by no means an expert in business economy so some of my reasoning might not be that good, but I assure you someone who is would find even more reasons. Someone who knows programming better than me would be able to give you more reasons. Someone who knows how the mess of copyright and business law would be able to help all of us get more confused and have us repeating things we do not understand in forum threads making those people more confused than us.

I don't disagree with you that this sucks. The game looks like something I'd like if I were a Metroid fan.

Those are more legitimate reasons as opposed to the more ridiculous ones presented to me by others. Although I do have to ask, if Nintendo could do it themselves then why don't they? I've played AM2R it's not just a remake, it's like Zero Mission in that content and bosses were added to make it more interesting.

 

[Yopaz]

Those are more legitimate reasons as opposed to the more ridiculous ones presented to me by others. Although I do have to ask, if Nintendo could do it themselves then why don't they? I've played AM2R it's not just a remake, it's like Zero Mission in that content and bosses were added to make it more interesting.

There are no good reasons why I think. They just don't feel like it. They care just enough about it to take down the fan project, but not enough to do anything with it themselves. It's a real shame to be honest.

 

[RealRT]

Even Sega, a company with all the cognitive capability of a dead goldfish and a history of pulling similar shit, recognizes you can't ignore this stuff.

Actually Streets of Rage Remake is just about the only time they did pull this shit. Afterwards? They have been nothing but encouraging to fans. Sonic Mania isn't the first time. The first time was back in 2011 with the Sonic CD rerelease that was made by a fan on the engine he wrote himself. He was later brought back to do the amazing iOS/Android ports of Sonic 1 and 2 and yes, Sonic Mania IS made on this very engine. Actually the official Sonic Youtube Channel recently commented on a fan game video, encouraging fans to keep up the good work.


Even with Streets of Rage Remake there's a rumor that they waited for so long just so the fans could finish the job and the game would get distributed all over the web, so that people could still play the game and they would still show their investors that they are protective of their properties.