There seems to still be a lingering concept that things guys do need to be "manly" or "not girly"

Haerthan

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inmunitas said:
Haerthan said:
Only in America do you see people bring up the whole "egalitarian, not a feminist" because they are all either a bunch of ignorant jackasses, either too stupid to be able to discern the right course of action in their own interests, or brainwashed to not be able to think for themselves.
Which? The American feminists? Or the American egalitarians?
No just Americans in general. I mean half of their population has no idea what feminism actually stands for. But then again...

Captcha: This is Sparta. No Captcha, This is Canada and we got snowballs with rocks in them ************
 

Mutant1988

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Haerthan said:
I mean half of their population has no idea what feminism actually stands for. But then again...
A political ideology, philosophy and movement towards the equal treatment of women.

It's really not a hard concept to grasp. But a surprising amount of people seem to get short circuits in their brain when they see the word.

And that is by no means limited to Americans.

I just ignore the people who insist the word means something else entirely. Misogynists and Misandrists alike. If you express hatred for the other gender, you are one of those two.

Because in hating a gender, you rob people of their individuality and define them solely by their gender. That extreme "feminists" don't see the irony in that is amazing.

Just goes to show that intelligence isn't determined by genitals.
 

Haerthan

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Mutant1988 said:
Haerthan said:
I mean half of their population has no idea what feminism actually stands for. But then again...
A political ideology, philosophy and movement towards the equal treatment of women.

It's really not a hard concept to grasp. But a surprising amount of people seem to get short circuits in their brain when they see the word.

And that is by no means limited to Americans.

I just ignore the people who insist the word means something else entirely. Misogynists and Misandrists alike. If you express hatred for the other gender, you are one of those two.

Because in hating a gender, you rob people of their individuality and define them solely by their gender. That extreme "feminists" don't see the irony in that is amazing.

Just goes to show that intelligence isn't determined by genitals.
you don't have to tell me that man, you are preaching to the choir here man. But I lived in Europe for a large chunk of my life and than I moved to Canada. There is a reason why America is called "Canada's beard" or is it asshole (Google search says thats Alaska). and Yes a large chunk of non-Americans don't know what feminism is, but nowhere outside of America is the statistic so high (50% in America, damn that is a lot of ignorance). And I lived in 3 countries (Romania, Germany and Canada).

And yea i completely ignore what the radical "feminists" have to say as well because they are just the female version of bigoted assholes.
 

Mutant1988

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Haerthan said:
you don't have to tell me that man, you are preaching to the choir here man. But I lived in Europe for a large chunk of my life and than I moved to Canada. There is a reason why America is called "Canada's beard" or is it asshole (Google search says thats Alaska). and Yes a large chunk of non-Americans don't know what feminism is, but nowhere outside of America is the statistic so high (50% in America, damn that is a lot of ignorance). And I lived in 3 countries (Romania, Germany and Canada).

And yea i completely ignore what the radical "feminists" have to say as well because they are just the female version of bigoted assholes.
I know. I just used that quote as a jump off point for my own soap boxing. :p

I'm not fallacious arguing for a golden means solution or promote moderation for it's own sake though.

I think we are all better of if anger is directed the right directions and to make sure that anger isn't the only thing we do to affect change. Sadly, a lot of people never get past the picking fights stage and do nothing but pick fights.

I blame radicals for appropriating the word Feminism. Likely helped by people who benefit from the status quo, such as genuine opponents to women's rights and all the industries that benefit from the disparity. That also being why "socialist" is still considered a slur in the US. Because government mandated social support and oversight would hurt some companies bottom line.
 

Haerthan

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Mutant1988 said:
Haerthan said:
you don't have to tell me that man, you are preaching to the choir here man. But I lived in Europe for a large chunk of my life and than I moved to Canada. There is a reason why America is called "Canada's beard" or is it asshole (Google search says thats Alaska). and Yes a large chunk of non-Americans don't know what feminism is, but nowhere outside of America is the statistic so high (50% in America, damn that is a lot of ignorance). And I lived in 3 countries (Romania, Germany and Canada).

And yea i completely ignore what the radical "feminists" have to say as well because they are just the female version of bigoted assholes.
I know. I just used that quote as a jump off point for my own soap boxing. :p

I'm not fallacious arguing for a golden means solution or promote moderation for it's own sake though.

I think we are all better of if anger is directed the right directions and to make sure that anger isn't the only thing we do to affect change. Sadly, a lot of people never get past the picking fights stage and do nothing but pick fights.

I blame radicals for appropriating the word Feminism. Likely helped by people who benefit from the status quo, such as genuine opponents to women's rights and all the industries that benefit from the disparity. That also being why "socialist" is still considered a slur in the US. Because government mandated social support and oversight would hurt some companies bottom line.
Ha Yea. But please don't get me started on the whole "socialist as a slur" thing they got going.
 

inmunitas

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Mutant1988 said:
Haerthan said:
I mean half of their population has no idea what feminism actually stands for. But then again...
A political ideology, philosophy and movement towards the equal treatment of women.

It's really not a hard concept to grasp. But a surprising amount of people seem to get short circuits in their brain when they see the word.

And that is by no means limited to Americans.

I just ignore the people who insist the word means something else entirely. Misogynists and Misandrists alike. If you express hatred for the other gender, you are one of those two.

Because in hating a gender, you rob people of their individuality and define them solely by their gender. That extreme "feminists" don't see the irony in that is amazing.

Just goes to show that intelligence isn't determined by genitals.
It's not that people don't understand what feminism claims to be about, it's just that isn't what people see "feminists" doing, it's a PR issue.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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inmunitas said:
Mutant1988 said:
Haerthan said:
I mean half of their population has no idea what feminism actually stands for. But then again...
A political ideology, philosophy and movement towards the equal treatment of women.

It's really not a hard concept to grasp. But a surprising amount of people seem to get short circuits in their brain when they see the word.

And that is by no means limited to Americans.

I just ignore the people who insist the word means something else entirely. Misogynists and Misandrists alike. If you express hatred for the other gender, you are one of those two.

Because in hating a gender, you rob people of their individuality and define them solely by their gender. That extreme "feminists" don't see the irony in that is amazing.

Just goes to show that intelligence isn't determined by genitals.
It's not that people don't understand what feminism claims to be about, it's just that isn't what people see "feminists" doing, it's a PR issue.
I think that is a misconception due to focusing on the few sensationalist rather than the majority though. The normal feminism stuff is boring and unremarkable so they only focus on the outlandish, even if that is in no way a representation of the majority of what feminists actually do.

If people gaged what the daily life of an "American " was like just based on news reports, they would think we were all drunken murderers suffering from affluenza that thought we were vampires climbing into peoples windows at night to bite people in their sleep. That doesn't mean it in any way represents reality.
 

SquallTheBlade

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erttheking said:
If you can't have friends that you can rely on, can't go to them with your problems...well..what good are they then?
Oh fuck no! What kind of mentality is this? Friends aren't your personal resources you can use how you see fit. Are you seriously saying a friend of yours is useless when they don't themselves have time/resources to help you when you want to?
 

Erttheking

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SquallTheBlade said:
erttheking said:
If you can't have friends that you can rely on, can't go to them with your problems...well..what good are they then?
Oh fuck no! What kind of mentality is this? Friends aren't your personal resources you can use how you see fit. Are you seriously saying a friend of yours is useless when they don't themselves have time/resources to help you when you want to?
I did not say that. What I meant to say was that a true friend is someone you know you could trust with when you have a deep personal problem. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
 

inmunitas

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Lil devils x said:
inmunitas said:
It's not that people don't understand what feminism claims to be about, it's just that isn't what people see "feminists" doing, it's a PR issue.
I think that is a misconception due to focusing on the few sensationalist rather than the majority though. The normal feminism stuff is boring and unremarkable so they only focus on the outlandish, even if that is in no way a representation of the majority of what feminists actually do.

If people gaged what the daily life of an "American " was like just based on news reports, they would think we were all drunken murderers suffering from affluenza that thought we were vampires climbing into peoples windows at night to bite people in their sleep. That doesn't mean it in any way represents reality.
The mainstream media in American seems to only focus on aspects that are easy to sensationalise and therefore "sell". It's hard to take any subject the media covers seriously, it becomes a joke, just something to laugh at and even make a game or an episode of a TV series out of.
 

Thaluikhain

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inmunitas said:
It's not that people don't understand what feminism claims to be about, it's just that isn't what people see "feminists" doing, it's a PR issue.
Any rights movement is going to run into that, though. Saying "there are big problems with society and we need to change it" generally annoys people that generally like their society. "Love it or leave it" is a mindset lots of people have, to a greater or lesser extent.
 

inmunitas

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thaluikhain said:
inmunitas said:
It's not that people don't understand what feminism claims to be about, it's just that isn't what people see "feminists" doing, it's a PR issue.
Any rights movement is going to run into that, though. Saying "there are big problems with society and we need to change it" generally annoys people that generally like their society. "Love it or leave it" is a mindset lots of people have, to a greater or lesser extent.
I guess the same goes with any movement that aims to upset the established order of something.
 

Dark Knifer

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LifeCharacter said:
Yuuki said:
Isn't that just Darwinism at work though?

Men being masculine and women being feminine is one of the key reasons reason our race has made it this far.
...Really? Masculinity and femininity are one of the "key reasons" our race has made it this far? Ignoring the part where your statement is supported by nothing but your desire that gender roles be good and necessary and the issue that what's masculine and feminine are different depending on where you are, is every reason considered "key" to you, or do you honestly think our gender roles are incredibly important to our dominance as a race?

Because thumbs, the human brain, tools, higher endurance and those things just building on each other and themselves over time are pretty much the reason humanity is dominant, not because they told women to stay in the kitchen.
I'd argue less. Much less so in modern times but when we were a younger species yes, gender roles were important. It's why most sexually reproducing species have them because it gives a specific purpose to both genders. In our own species, men were encouraged by both genders to take risks because if often brought in more rewards, larger hunting kills and things like that.

Women were more protected for reproduction purposes so that encouraged non-risk taking behavior for them.

In modern times we're going to an exciting metamorphosis that is moving away from this idea and I like that. Personal freedom yay. But I'm not going to talk down the importance of gender roles when we were younger because they were important. I agree they don't need to be around much anymore but lets not ignore history, that would be silly. Gender roles definitely had its uses but we're moving past it. But we're very alone in that sense because most sexually reproducing animals have gender roles to an extremely large degree.
 

Dark Knifer

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LifeCharacter said:
Dark Knifer said:
I'd argue less. Much less so in modern times but when we were a younger species yes, gender roles were important. It's why most sexually reproducing species have them because it gives a specific purpose to both genders. In our own species, men were encouraged by both genders to take risks because if often brought in more rewards, larger hunting kills and things like that.

Women were more protected for reproduction purposes so that encouraged non-risk taking behavior for them.

In modern times we're going to an exciting metamorphosis that is moving away from this idea and I like that. Personal freedom yay. But I'm not going to talk down the importance of gender roles when we were younger because they were important. I agree they don't need to be around much anymore but lets not ignore history, that would be silly. Gender roles definitely had its uses but we're moving past it. But we're very alone in that sense because most sexually reproducing animals have gender roles to an extremely large degree.
Important for early survival, sure, maybe, evo-psych away with that speculation because it's at least somewhat reasonable. One of the "key reasons" our race has made it this far? Absolute nonsense. Pretty much every other advantage humans had ranks above gender roles as reasons we succeeded. Not to mention that, unless "this far" means little more than achieving our prehistorical status, gender roles likely restricted our ascension to the current state by refusing to let half the population partake in advancement.
True. To say one way or another though we'd need a society that has been built up with no gender roles, and i don't think such a society exists. Every society has had them at one point or another and I'm not keen saying one way or another without a lot of research. I would say they helped in some ways, very unhelpful in others but that depends on your basis of success whether its ethical, technological advancement, political advancement, societal advancement, pure survival. It's certainly worth the study considering how consistent it is among the species.

Either way, I'm optimistic for the future and seeing where gender ideas go and the benefits for less strict gender roles.
 

cleric of the order

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You know what, I had this whole spiel but i think I'm just going to crank you my opinion this way.
Why do I need, or any man woman or child need to openly express their emotions by crying.
Why is that indicative to emotions for some people and why does that indicate anything good.
Ignore manliness or girlishness, lefts put down the stupid sex question and ask it.
Crying is not the be all end all emotional response.
And everyone responds to emotional separately, so there are indeed men that cannot cry naturally because of how they deal with their emotions.
There are people whom their responsibility renders the privilege of easily expressing their more vulnerable personage impossible and the best option is to soldier through it.
IT is not the nicest possibility but an acceptable one.
Others pour their emotions into their work and out of their pains and joys they find a new life, a rich inner life bred within the contours of their own minds.
And many others in many other ways.
Myself I've cried more I'd like and every-time it was more a produce of rage and incomprehension then actual sadness. I never really cry at sad things and I wish i could. my EXTERNAL emotional responses do not simply function that way.
Simply emotions are and have always been a complex thing, not something you could just tie down to sexes or the like alone but something more intricate. A complex measure of our biological functions.
And while it does sound simply wrong in our day to suggest this but perhaps these social expectations are the societal mean of biological factors. Simply the most common response of the sex in question over time. I have no idea myself, it seems possible but I have no proof or evidence to support it.
But either way, if anyone tells you men don't express emotions, punch them in the face. I WILL NOT HAVE THEM BEFOULING THE NAMES OF EVERY MAN THAT HAS EVER LIVED, NOT THE LEAST OF WHICH BEING THE GREAT MALE ARTISTS AND WRITERS THAT HAVE CREATED WORKS OF SUCH HAUNTING BEATUY THAT THEY LINGER ON LONG AFTER THEIR DEATHS.
If they say men should cry then well that's up to you, crying tends to solve nothing anyway but who am I to judge.
 

Lilani

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There is definitely a great stigma against femininity in society. We're perfectly okay with women being feminine, but whenever men want to be feminine suddenly people get very uncomfortable. The evidence of this is everywhere--the way people seem to be way more concerned and freaked out over boys being homosexual, or boys playing with girl's toys, or men wearing women's clothes. There's basically no men's clothing which is socially unacceptable for women to wear, yet so much women's clothing men can't wear. And girls who play with boy's toys are endearing "tomboys," and boys who play with girl's toys are weird or troubling.

We are slowly getting better about this, especially with the Internet and social media. But it'll still take a few generations to really start making progress. A few institutions which need to change to reflect this change in attitude is paid paternity leave and more recognition for single fathers.
 

Kathinka

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It's rooted in biology. Girls, generally speaking, like assertive, confident, aggressive guys. It's just how it is. Those, that in the cave man days could have slain the mammoth, taken their share of the berries, produced healthy offspring and defended the tribe with a spear.

Obviously, we don't live in caves anymore. But from an evolutionary standpoint, it was only the day before yesterday that we did, so these qualities are still ingrained into our brains as desirable. Wonder why the hot girls so often end up dating the jerks? Because jerkdom and these qualities often overlap.