Things You Might (Incorrectly) Believe About Guns

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SuccessAndBiscuts

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Choppaduel said:
an armed & educated society is a polite society.
But a polite and educated society does not need to be armed. My biggest problem with guns isn't with the guns as such, its the people who feel a need to carry them.

I understand the self-defence argument, I just find it hard to agree with.
 

wkrepelin

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Apr 28, 2010
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maturin said:
Also, because there's more energy transferred into the body, that force goes toward stopping the target, which is our goal anyhow. If you're shooting, you aim for center mass.
The force of a bullet hitting a body can't knock you over or even slow you down. It's a tiny little object. People recoil or fall over because, hello, their internal organs have suddenly been turned into ground beef. Stopping power is a misnomer and actually refers to a variety of secondary wounding effects, some of which are medically quite iffy.

And if you could knock someone over with a bullet, then you would shoot for the legs to trip them and knock them out from under them, just like a football player making a tackle.

Being hit by a .45 caliber bullet in terms of force transfer is like having a 1 pound weight dropped on you from 12 feet up. Not that impressive.
Sorry to do this but . . . maturin has literally no idea what they're talking about. I don't mean to forum bash them or anything but people should be aware that they are completely wrong and not any kind of authority on the matter. I have a BS in physics and a grain of sand can posses enough momentum to knock a man down at the right speed (realistically it would just punch through them like a "standard round" or just explode on impact releasing the energy in that way). The formula for the force of a collision is mass times velocity divided by time. This means if the mass is low it can be compensated for by either increasing speed or decreasing time.

Oh and maturin . . . A bullet will knock you over . . . damn it dude, if you are at rest with zero momentum and then you collide with a bullet that has nonzero momentum then guess who splits up the momentum? That's right! You and the bullet and since you now have nonzero momentum you are moving and since you body forms an inverted pen . . . (go away, this is important, someone on the internet is wrong!) ahem . . . right, inverted pendulum then you just fall over.

Ba-zing-gah!
 

Vryyk

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Levi93 said:
Don't suppose you could back up the "You'll notice that it's always the people who have never been in a situation where they may not be going home who scream "ban guns!" the loudest." could you? I want some proof.
What's the matter? OP's post too airtight to take on for ya? Of course I can't pull cold hard numbers on something like that. If you want to count that as a small and petty victory for anti-gun activists you are of course welcome to do so.
 

mr_rubino

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Levi93 said:
Vryyk said:
I like this thread. I'm sick of hearing "shoot to wound" and all that rubbish about tailoring response to meet the threat (in under 10 seconds no less). You'll notice that it's always the people who have never been in a situation where they may not be going home who scream "ban guns!" the loudest. Very well said sir.
Don't suppose you could back up the "You'll notice that it's always the people who have never been in a situation where they may not be going home who scream "ban guns!" the loudest." could you? I want some proof.
They have none. Some people are ruled by their emotions. Giving them guns is probably the most dangerous thing you can do. They'll probably panic and blow away half a city street before nicking an attacker.
It's a "no atheists in the trenches" kinda statement.
 

archvile93

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SuccessAndBiscuts said:
Choppaduel said:
an armed & educated society is a polite society.
But a polite and educated society does not need to be armed. My biggest problem with guns isn't with the guns as such, its the people who feel a need to carry them.

I understand the self-defence argument, I just find it hard to agree with.
You're making the assumption that everyone in the society will be polite and educated. This is rarely if ever the case.
 

Grey_Focks

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Jan 12, 2010
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Good stuff OP, and definitely should be read by all those guys posting in the thread you mentioned.
 

calebcom84

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Aug 21, 2009
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wkrepelin said:
maturin said:
Also, because there's more energy transferred into the body, that force goes toward stopping the target, which is our goal anyhow. If you're shooting, you aim for center mass.
The force of a bullet hitting a body can't knock you over or even slow you down. It's a tiny little object. People recoil or fall over because, hello, their internal organs have suddenly been turned into ground beef. Stopping power is a misnomer and actually refers to a variety of secondary wounding effects, some of which are medically quite iffy.

And if you could knock someone over with a bullet, then you would shoot for the legs to trip them and knock them out from under them, just like a football player making a tackle.

Being hit by a .45 caliber bullet in terms of force transfer is like having a 1 pound weight dropped on you from 12 feet up. Not that impressive.
Sorry to do this but . . . maturin has literally no idea what they're talking about. I don't mean to forum bash them or anything but people should be aware that they are completely wrong and not any kind of authority on the matter. I have a BS in physics and a grain of sand can posses enough momentum to knock a man down at the right speed (realistically it would just punch through them like a "standard round" or just explode on impact releasing the energy in that way). The formula for the force of a collision is mass times velocity divided by time. This means if the mass is low it can be compensated for by either increasing speed or decreasing time.

Oh and maturin . . . A bullet will knock you over . . . damn it dude, if you are at rest with zero momentum and then you collide with a bullet that has nonzero momentum then guess who splits up the momentum? That's right! You and the bullet and since you now have nonzero momentum you are moving and since you body forms an inverted pen . . . (go away, this is important, someone on the internet is wrong!) ahem . . . right, inverted pendulum then you just fall over.

Ba-zing-gah!
Thousands of soldiers over in Iraq and Afghanistan have spoken as to shooting insurgents 5-10 times and they don't fall down. If a bullet was capable of knocking you head over heels then via physics (Equal and opposite reactions) the backwards force of the gun would throw you across a room as well.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1818862/posts

A city where they made it legally required to own a gun, crime rate dropped like a rock compared to equally sized cities right next to it.

I've had to pull a gun on another human being. I was absolutely terrified, I pulled and I fired. I didn't stop pulling that trigger till the gun was empty and kept pulling after that. I emptied a 19 round clip in about 3-4 seconds. I've fired thousands of rounds in my life. No amount of training will ever truly prepare you for the moment when someone steps out of a shadow and tries to harm you or your loved ones.

Instinct, Fight or Flight. You either turn and run or you attack in a frenzy. You don't think. It's a haze, there is no time to aim, fire a warning, disarm, pistol whip.
 

Nooners

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Sep 27, 2009
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dastardly, many thanks for making this thread. Very well-written and informative read. It was a pleasure to read.
 

maturin

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Jul 20, 2010
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wkrepelin said:
Sorry to do this but . . . maturin has literally no idea what they're talking about.

*snip*

Ba-zing-gah!
Are you sure you have a BS? I don't think anyone trying to tout their degree with a straight face would write like you.

The momentum of the so-called "manstopper" .45 ACP bullet is approximately that of a 1 pound (0.45 kg) mass dropped from a height of 11.4 feet (3.5 m). Such a force is simply incapable of arresting a running target's forward momentum. In addition, bullets are designed to penetrate instead of strike a blunt force blow, because, in penetrating, more severe tissue damage is done. A bullet with sufficient energy to knock down an assailant, such as a high-speed rifle bullet, would be more likely to instead pass straight through, while not transferring the full energy (in fact only a very small percentage of the full energy) of the bullet to the victim.
Source here: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

The formula for the force of a collision is mass times velocity divided by time. This means if the mass is low it can be compensated for by either increasing speed or decreasing time.
And bullets move really effing fast though the body, so the TIME negates the otherwise great momentum of fast-moving projectile.

Additionally, human bodies are not the small dense object A on a pop quiz. They are squishy things made of flexible materials. A bullet is capable of puncturing and displacing highly ductile tissue without acting on the overall body with anything resembling its total force. If the bullet was actually the size of a cow and collided rather penetrated, you're damn right it would probably knock you over.

I don't care if you're Stephen Hawking. No matter what theory says, it's a widely-known, easily-verified objective fact that bullets do no such thing.

You and the bullet and since you now have nonzero momentum you are moving and since you body forms an inverted pen . . . (go away, this is important, someone on the internet is wrong!) ahem . . . right, inverted pendulum then you just fall over.
Wait, now I have to ask if you've been being sarcastic the whole time. I'm not an inverted pendulum. I have *legs.* When a force acts against me above my center of gravity, my whole body reacts to it and readjusts. I was talking about the real world, where people resist falling over. Specifically, I was writing about people already moving.

FYI: Energy transfer is a theoretical term used in describing ballistics trauma, not high school physics problems.

Edit:
Actually, yes, I am quite sure you were being sarcastic or else have no schooling physics.

For every action, an equal and opposite reaction. I believe some famous guy said that at some point.

The force of a bullet hitting a target must always be less than the recoil force of the weapon. Does weapon recoil knock people over? It can, but it is also easily resisted.

Isaac Newton proved this in the 17th century, and he used your precious pendulum to do it.

More data: being struck by a 9mm round is like being hit with a one pound weight dropped from only six feet. Going at 19.6 feet per second. 13.3 miles per hour. Or ten pounds dropped from a little over a foot.

Read about it on page 9 of the link.
 

Levi93

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Oct 26, 2009
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Vryyk said:
Levi93 said:
Don't suppose you could back up the "You'll notice that it's always the people who have never been in a situation where they may not be going home who scream "ban guns!" the loudest." could you? I want some proof.
What's the matter? OP's post too airtight to take on for ya? Of course I can't pull cold hard numbers on something like that. If you want to count that as a small and petty victory for anti-gun activists you are of course welcome to do so.
OK so I'm admitting to being a little bit 'anti-gun' but "small and petty victory" you make it sound like they're doing a bad thing, you know... Trying to get killing machines out of civilian hands who claim they have rights to own due to a piece of paper wrote over 200 years ago? Oh and what do you mean by "OP's post too airtight." he's not making an arguement he's just pointing out some facts and missconceptions about guns, and you'll notice that he doesn't go into detain of the amount of shootings in America compared with other countries with stricter gun control.

Actually I don't even know why I'm arguing, I live in the UK where the gun controll is
strict and I can walk to the other end of my street without having to worry about getting shot, just seriously keep your stupid out dated second ammendment in America
 

calebcom84

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Aug 21, 2009
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Levi93 said:
Vryyk said:
Levi93 said:
Don't suppose you could back up the "You'll notice that it's always the people who have never been in a situation where they may not be going home who scream "ban guns!" the loudest." could you? I want some proof.
What's the matter? OP's post too airtight to take on for ya? Of course I can't pull cold hard numbers on something like that. If you want to count that as a small and petty victory for anti-gun activists you are of course welcome to do so.
OK so I'm admitting to being a little bit 'anti-gun' but "small and petty victory" you make it sound like they're doing a bad thing, you know... Trying to get killing machines out of civilian hands who claim they have rights to own due to a piece of paper wrote over 200 years ago? Oh and what do you mean by "OP's post too airtight." he's not making an arguement he's just pointing out some facts and missconceptions about guns, and you'll notice that he doesn't go into detain of the amount of shootings in America compared with other countries with stricter gun control.

Actually I don't even know why I'm arguing, I live in the UK where the gun controll is
strict and I can walk to the other end of my street without having to worry about getting shot, just seriously keep your stupid out dated second ammendment in America
I'm quite happy with my 2nd Amendment thank you. If I lived in london I would be dead currently.

Edit: Gotta love the UK, where someone can break into your house while you're home KNOWING that there's a 99% likelihood that no one in there has a gun.

I come from alaska, break into any house around while someone's home and you've got a 50/50 chance of getting your brains blown out.

Hence why robbery is lower in the US than the UK. :)
 

droid

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Apr 15, 2009
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Xero Scythe said:
maturin said:
Also, because there's more energy transferred into the body, that force goes toward stopping the target, which is our goal anyhow. If you're shooting, you aim for center mass.
The force of a bullet hitting a body can't knock you over or even slow you down. It's a tiny little object. People recoil or fall over because, hello, their internal organs have suddenly been turned into ground beef. Stopping power is a misnomer and actually refers to a variety of secondary wounding effects, some of which are medically quite iffy.

And if you could knock someone over with a bullet, then you would shoot for the legs to trip them and knock them out from under them, just like a football player making a tackle.

Being hit by a .45 caliber bullet in terms of force transfer is like having a 1 pound weight dropped on you from 12 feet up. Not that impressive.
Have you ever taken Physics? If so you would know a .45 is pretty damn stopping. The Formula for Kinetic Energy is KE=.5M(V squared), where M is mass and V is velocity. Going at say...just 300 miles an hour, that bullet's got energy. And a 1 pound plate is a little more annoying than you think. One, that plate as you said is turning your insides to jam- now imagine 4 of those. I think that would at least slow people down.
That is the correct form for KE, which relates to the damage dealt, but this is more of a momentum problem. Momentum p is given by p = mv. Assume that a bullet weighs 5 grams and moves at 1000 meters/sec (both of these values are very high for a handgun). After collision with an 80 kg (about 180 pounds) person, assuming the bullet is embedded in the person, the person will be moving 0.07 meters/sec faster or slower than they were before impact. For comparison, walking speed is about 1.3 meters/sec.

Edit: The mass of a bullet may be off by a factor of 4? I am not sure, but it isn't likely off by more than 10.

True, bullets slow people down, but it is because of the damage, not momentum.
 

s0m3th1ng

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Aug 29, 2010
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Sweet post...and I got one bit of info you can add:
Most gun-related incidents occur within 18 feet of the shooter.
 

wkrepelin

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Apr 28, 2010
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calebcom84 said:
Thousands of soldiers over in Iraq and Afghanistan have spoken as to shooting insurgents 5-10 times and they don't fall down. If a bullet was capable of knocking you head over heels then via physics (Equal and opposite reactions) the backwards force of the gun would throw you across a room as well.

{large Snip}
You are absolutely correct about the Newton's third law thing and that's where recoil comes from. The amount of momentum imparted on a target can be no greater than (but opposite to) the momentum imparted on the shooter by the guns recoil (really the recoil of the bullet on the gun but that's splitting hairs). Now would be a good time to note that people are knocked over by the recoil of a gun all the time and that's, in part, why proper training is required to fire one. Obviously it's going to be different for different types of guns but the point still stands as tall as ever - it is completely within the threshold of normal physics for a person to be knocked over by a small projectile at high speeds (or a huge projectile at low speeds for that matter, try to stop a train going one-tenth of a mile an hour - you will be knocked over). If you don't know the math then you don't know (this is not a statement about intelligence but just one about being informed).
 

emeraldrafael

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Jul 17, 2010
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Its good of you to teach this.

Its too bad I cant carry my guns around. They're all Pre 1900 (3 1862 colt navys and 2 1863 colt Armies, as well as two 1887 1884 Winchesters) with authentic rounds and I would seriously hurt someone and mess them up if I shot them. Mainly cause I aim for the shoulders/knees or the head, cause if they're attacking me and dont stop and I have to use a gun, they're going to be stopped.

But thank you, for clearing up rumors about guns. though I think you should announce it you have a gun, simply for self defense trials later. It helps you a bit more then just saying "oh yeah, the guy was charging me, so I shot him. Didnt Know I had a gun, the dick. hahaha".
 

Orwellian37

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Dec 22, 2009
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Thanks for the information. I shoot handguns for sport, and I knew some of these things, but not all of them. Again, thanks.