This whole Rape Controversy has gotten silly,

[CentralScrtnzr]

There are a lot of ways by which to be intimately violated. Rape is merely one of them.

It is telling, however, that the typical codified sentences for murder are much more severe than rape. I like to imagine that those who produced the law had some knowledge and sense of what they were doing and scaled sentences appropriately.

 

[zefiris]

That's what's happening right now with this whole rape mess.

Wrong, OP. What is happening is people like you silencing rape victims. Many people that complains ARE RAPE VICTIMS, you ignorant twit.

Other people, like Jim Sterling, are agreeing with them. They are not talking for them.

You are trying to make this into something it isn't, by trying to silence rape victims. Seriously, if that's not the move of a total douchebag, I don't know what is.

very victim of rape does not live the rest of their entire life thinking of themselves as a victim.

The only one saying this is you. Maybe stop bringing up things that people don't actually say. It's called a strawman argument.

A big problem here is that people are saying Rape should not be in video games at all.

With people like you around that immediately pretend that rape victims that complain don't exist, and that everyone who complains is just a white knight, I think the argument has merit.

As you prove, the gaming community as a whole is nowhere near mature enough to handle this subject maturely. You cannot even handle the existence of rape victims that disagree with you, after all.

white knights rushing to be the first and loudest to ARR BLAGHTOERAHG SEXISM GHRIUHNPFDSYHRSPFDHGNAGH RAGE ETC.

Yeah, the legions of people crying about feminism and whining bitter, emo tears that people dare to complain about sexism really made this a mess. They white-knight companies like the one pulling the Lara stunt so hart, it's not even funny.

 

[rbstewart7263]

I'm of the thought that most are too easily offended. Actual rape fine I can understand the offense its horrible. Actual beating of actual women fine still pretty bad. Treating game trailers as tho it were the holocaust. Are we so prudish that we can't handle a lil s&m or watch our hero can't fight her way out of a rape situation? An no crystal dynamics cares about this baby others assumed it was just for shock value without even giving the team an interview to stir up controversy. Despicable. You need only watch the,trailer to know that they are handling the issue w due respect not pussyfooting around the issue. Not can't can. Silly droids. Oh an watch interviews aside from the idiot exec you can tell there sincere about this.

 

[rbstewart7263]

In my opinion about the controversy, portrayal of rape should never be taboo. That being said, the guy who commented about protecting Lara Croft made an idiotic statement. That says very little about the game or him as a person. He goofed, get over it.

It wasn't just some guy who made that comment. It was the director of the game, the guy who decides how the story unfolds. He's literally making this game as a white knight simulator. It says more than a little about someone when they throw a teenager in their creation through a meat grinder so they can "protect her" to feel good about themselves.

It was the executive producer someone who has very little hands on with the game an little idea. They may be like "will this sell? Good don b't get off schedule" otherwise nope its just a bonus for him if the game meets expected profits. This is bone too dissimilar to the producers comments on that ninja turtle movie. The exec literally had no real clue hat he was talking about when he said they were aliens.

Foregone conclusion. Irony.lol

 

[Cheesepower5]

In my opinion about the controversy, portrayal of rape should never be taboo. That being said, the guy who commented about protecting Lara Croft made an idiotic statement. That says very little about the game or him as a person. He goofed, get over it.

It wasn't just some guy who made that comment. It was the director of the game, the guy who decides how the story unfolds. He's literally making this game as a white knight simulator. It says more than a little about someone when they throw a teenager in their creation through a meat grinder so they can "protect her" to feel good about themselves.

I know the man's position, I said some guy because I forget his name and "The director of the game" was a little bit wordy for basically passing off his comment as poor word choice. He was trying to appeal to the male audience, who he figured might have trouble connecting to a female character. That much is obvious. It doesn't make it a "white knight simulator." You don't watch some grubby, degenerate Quasimodo looking mother-fucker about to have his way with poor, helpless Lara Goddamned Croft, then take control of the glorious Anti-Rape Man then have your consensual victory BJ. She fights him off by herself, through input by the character (as it should be, people complained about taking it away for say, MGS4.) And it's partly true what he was trying to say. Men have an instinctual negative reaction to seeing women come to harm, might make the situation a little more tense, a little more dramatic within our culture. He just phrased it poorly and sounded like a jackass. I say: Big whoop.

 

[Bato]

-snip-

I never understood why there is this stigma against sex.
Where the naked body, the natural form. And slamming DNA together to make a mucous monster from some woman's vagina is considered terrible and should be censored and never alluded to!
But if you blow some guy's head off with a shotgun, that's alright.

I know where it all came from culturally, but I can't understand WHY that developed.
I can understand we all have a subtle insecurity over our own biology but is it really powerful enough to render Murder more socially acceptable than rape?

 

[lucky_sharm]

Hell, my favorite game has a bit about rape. You don't see anything, but it's heavily implied that a minor side character was raped. This character doesn't want to discuss it, so you don't. She says she doesn't want to be seen as helpless and delicate. That's it.

Aha! Dragon Age Origins, referring to Shianni's kidnapping, am I right? You have excellent tastes.

 

[Jimesis]

I'm not sure you read my entire post Zefiris or, if you did, you missed the point I was trying to make and the intent behind the words. That could easily be my fault, I'm not the best wordsmith ever to live, so I apologize if that's the case. If you'll let me try to clear the air of a few things?

- So I'm not saying that people are literally saying "Every rape victim lives their lives thinking of themselves as victims" I'm saying that the tone is implied in a lot of what people have said and it's a tone that's reflected in the perceptions of many people. My gf, who was a victim of rape, found these implications offensive and I agreed with her. I felt that the idea that most if not all rape victims are forever hobbled by their trauma is one born out of ignorance rather than malice. It's not that people look down on rape victims (though some do), it's that they do not understand that the trauma can have a wide variety of effects on people. The only way for more people to understand is to get people talking about it. Mature discourse will inevitably lead to better understanding as well as the lessening of ignorance and even condescension against people who have been raped.

- I have no intention of silencing anyone. I've expressed the opposite several times. What I want is more talking, from as many perspectives as possible, and yours is in fact just as valid and welcome as anyone else's. I haven't been raped myself, but I've been very close to enough people who have that I have a good grasp of the subject. I know that this is a deep issue that can't be generalized the way many other people have insisted it can. No matter what extreme of the scale your views rest at, whether you trivialize the subject or say it's the most damaging thing that could happen to anyone ever, you're wrong when you imply your view is a universal.

I am aware that some victims of rape are offended by the tomb raider trailer. But I don't know those people and therefore can't speak for them. The person still in my life who has been through this trauma did not find the trailer offensive. She found the implication that as a rape victim she couldn't handle a game depicting rape offensive.

- Lastly, again I don't think you read everything I wrote. And again I don't blame you for that, I wrote a lot of things. I have said, several times, that there are people who have been raped and been badly traumatized by the experience. And I do feel sorry for them. I never said that no one who's been raped would complain about the trailer, and I don't believe I implied that. If I DID then I sincerely apologize to everyone here.

I disagree with those who feel games depicting rape should not exist. In movies, television, and books rape can and has been used as part of a story without trying to maliciously exploit people or trivialize their pain. Writers in games should be allowed to do the same.

Preventing them from doing this, I feel, does nothing to help anyone. Maybe it helps keep the entire subject of rape out of the public eye, thereby making it less likely that a person who has been raped will have to confront the subject. But if we're going to take that route we should probably take shows like Law and Order SVU, which deals almost exclusively in sexual assault stories, off the air. Avoiding the subject of rape doesn't actually help anyone. By keeping it out of the public eye you keep people ignorant and this is why some people trivialize it, they just do not understand.

The argument that videogamers at large are not mature enough to handle a subject is pretty circular. They can't talk about something because they aren't mature enough and they're not mature enough because they aren't allowed to talk about it. If videogamers, as a community, are going to mature and handle concepts like these better they have to first be exposed to them. There's no other way.

- I'm not really going to address any of the name-calling, it's not necessary to do so. If my words came across to you in a way different from the spirit I intended then you were probably justified.

 

[anthony87]

That's what's happening right now with this whole rape mess.

Wrong, OP. What is happening is people like you silencing rape victims. Many people that complains ARE RAPE VICTIMS, you ignorant twit.

Other people, like Jim Sterling, are agreeing with them. They are not talking for them.

You are trying to make this into something it isn't, by trying to silence rape victims. Seriously, if that's not the move of a total douchebag, I don't know what is.

very victim of rape does not live the rest of their entire life thinking of themselves as a victim.

The only one saying this is you. Maybe stop bringing up things that people don't actually say. It's called a strawman argument.

A big problem here is that people are saying Rape should not be in video games at all.

With people like you around that immediately pretend that rape victims that complain don't exist, and that everyone who complains is just a white knight, I think the argument has merit.

As you prove, the gaming community as a whole is nowhere near mature enough to handle this subject maturely. You cannot even handle the existence of rape victims that disagree with you, after all.

white knights rushing to be the first and loudest to ARR BLAGHTOERAHG SEXISM GHRIUHNPFDSYHRSPFDHGNAGH RAGE ETC.

Yeah, the legions of people crying about feminism and whining bitter, emo tears that people dare to complain about sexism really made this a mess. They white-knight companies like the one pulling the Lara stunt so hart, it's not even funny.

Please point out to me where the OP says that rape victims should stay silent? You call him an ignorant twit but your entire post makes it seems as though you got 10 words into the OP before jumping to wild conclusions.

Also, your explanation as to what a strawman argument is....

 

[anthony87]

snip

Just letting you know man, if you wanna reply to a post, be sure to click on the "Quote" button under that particular post to make sure that the person you're replying to actually know's you've replied.

 

[The Funslinger]

I don't know if you've read this article [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9766-The-R-Word] or not, but the way you said not every rape victim goes around thinking of themself as a victim, I get the feeling you haven't. While not every rape victim might react that way, rape can leave very vivid mental scars, and give victims the same sort of post-traumatic stress reactions as soldiers fresh from the front lines.

We shouldn't be afraid to portray rape, yes, but I feel we should also avoid misrepresenting it and trivializing it. If rape is going to be portrayed in a "real" way, then the writers should make the effort to do their research on rape victims and how they cope. Don't just assume it's going to be a super intense "growing up" moment that's easily interchangeable with some other tragedy, like a dog getting killed or losing a loved one.

This may come off really ignorant but surely some of the trauma has to come from how seriously we take it? I mean, it's seen as one of the worst things ever so if someone is raped surely that's shitloads more baggage that is going to be weighing down one them that doesn't need to be there. I'm not saying we should treat it in a light-hearted manner but it's such a sensitive topic these days.

I realise I could be full of shit but I've been wondering this for a while.

You're right. It's could experience PTSD from the event. OP isn't denying that happens, he's just saying it's not for definite.

Hell, I'm joining the Royal Marines. For a great number of reasons, but one thing that's occurred to me that really spurs me on is this: I'm a diagnosed sociopath. If anyone could go onto the front lines and come back fine, it's me. So when people ask me why the hell I could possibly want to go out there, I say because if I don't, my place will just be filled by some other poor schmuck who might not be as mentally prepared to handle it.

 

[The Funslinger]

-snip-

I never understood why there is this stigma against sex.
Where the naked body, the natural form. And slamming DNA together to make a mucous monster from some woman's vagina is considered terrible and should be censored and never alluded to!
But if you blow some guy's head off with a shotgun, that's alright.

That is a bit odd, isn't it. Taking away life is fine to show, but giving it? Perish the thought! xD

 

[Jimesis]

snip

Just letting you know man, if you wanna reply to a post, be sure to click on the "Quote" button under that particular post to make sure that the person you're replying to actually know's you've replied.

Thanks, I hadn't realized till now that I was getting PMs every time someone quoted me. When I saw the number next to my mail icon I just thought I had a stack of messages, ha.

 

[random3]

just going to say this for the people too scared to say it and im going to get a shit load of flame for this but had to be said. THIS IS A GAMING WEBSITE not a psychiatrists office, your not going to change the world with one article and you just put a "downer" on people who read it. i dont disagree with your point i disagree with how you put it across everyone who says its not the right place to say it is right.

 

[Kanatatsu]

I realize the OP tried to be respectful to a degree, this post comes off as a really juvenile attempt at a serious discussion of a subject the OP doesn't really understand.

 

[Jimesis]

just going to say this for the people too scared to say it and im going to get a shit load of flame for this but had to be said. THIS IS A GAMING WEBSITE not a psychiatrists office, your not going to change the world with one article and you just put a "downer" on people who read it. i dont disagree with your point i disagree with how you put it across everyone who says its not the right place to say it is right.

Well I hope no one flames you, though it's not like I have a command of anyone here. I will say that I'm not trying to "change the world", I just want to talk about an idea and how our society views it, as well as how/if it is/can/should be expressed in the medium of videogames.

I understand that it could bring people down which is why I wrote a disclaimer in the beginning. I don't know about you, but I think several people have added some meaningful insights to this conversation, have shared some very personal memories, and maybe learned about ideas and perspectives they weren't aware of before. In my book that makes the whole thread worthwhile. But then we might not even be playing the same game here.

I realize the OP tried to be respectful to a degree, this post comes off as a really juvenile attempt at a serious discussion of a subject the OP doesn't really understand.

Hmmm... I thought my post was really well thought out and quite serious, I'd also say that I understand the subject matter about as well as one can without experiencing the trauma himself. If the writing comes across as juvenile to you it's likely a deficiency on my part. If it's not too much trouble can I ask you to expand and explain what you mean?

 

[Michaluk]

I think the trauma of rape is greatly amplified by our culture's hyper response to it. Women are taught their entire lives that being rapes is the absolute worst thing that can happen to you. Society is setting them up to be maximally traumatized. The truth is that rape is not the worst thing that can happen to someone, it is merely a bad thing among many other bad things. People really need to get some perspective. Would you rather be raped or killed? Would you rather be raped or lose all your limbs to an IED? Would you rather be raped or have everyone in your immediate family die?. For most people, these are not hard questions.

 

[AyreonMaiden]

I don't know if you've read this article [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9766-The-R-Word] or not, but the way you said not every rape victim goes around thinking of themself as a victim, I get the feeling you haven't. While not every rape victim might react that way, rape can leave very vivid mental scars, and give victims the same sort of post-traumatic stress reactions as soldiers fresh from the front lines.

We shouldn't be afraid to portray rape, yes, but I feel we should also avoid misrepresenting it and trivializing it. If rape is going to be portrayed in a "real" way, then the writers should make the effort to do their research on rape victims and how they cope. Don't just assume it's going to be a super intense "growing up" moment that's easily interchangeable with some other tragedy, like a dog getting killed or losing a loved one.

This is what I feel as well. That said, I don't think the way Tomb Raider went about it was wrong either. Maybe overused as a trope, but not wrong. Maybe it was a PR stunt, but I honestly don't think it'd have made a difference if the developers hadn't highlighted it. The minority probably would have once they played it, and we'd probably be in the same place we're in right now with the controversy. I just want some consistency out of gamers. People want games to be art...but the moment developers try, they're shamed to the point of denial? Are they shocked at all that they get nothing out of the AAA space?

I read that Anonymous article. It was harrowing and wrenching to say the least, but I cannot shake the feeling in my (thank the good lord) privileged mind that in a world of 6+ billion people, there's gotta be SOME out there that have fought off an attempted rape the way Lara Croft did. And if art reflects life, I don't see what's so wrong with the trope. It's not original and it definitely doesn't represent the reality in a well-rounded way, but this is a young industry that frankly, doesn't know how to express anything all that well yet. This generation is when it's truly begun to figure it out. So it might be a cliche, but, baby steps, you know? Maybe it's because I've never had anything that horrible happen to me that I can think those things, and I don't know if it invalidates my opinions, but I can't shake that feeling.

Tomb Raider could have lead to more and more refined tacklings of the subject. But no, the minority decided to set the precedent and now all I see in the future is more people afraid of the post-ME3 vocal minority. This is why I pump my fist when I hear Reggie Fils-Aime or the Tekken Tag Tournament producer tell it like it is about their most hardcore vocal fans that simply won't let up. The minority is long overdue that kind of response. There's got to be a point where we let developers breathe as artists without a minority shaming them into altering their vision, otherwise, kiss your stupid notions of "recognition as art" good bye.

I don't know how controversial it is to have this next opinion, but I'd like to get someone's take on it just to get a little perspective, seeing as I'm also very privileged in many ways in society: Speaking in literary terms, there's got to be a point where we let characters breathe as their own entities, independent of our idealizations. We didn't write them. We have no clue what went on in the writer's mind, and 9 times out of 10 I doubt it was "How can I oppress women/trivialize a big issue today?" We've got to experience the whole before providing any kind of feedback, criticism, or judgment.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

People who have been murdered are dead. Therefore they can't be offended by playing a game with murder in it. People who have been raped are alive (usually) and therefore can be offended.

That's an argument someone might choose to use. I would probably do so if I could be bothered, but the whole argument doesn't seem that important unless we're forcing these victims to play these games. I'm scared of spiders but I don't need Dragon Age banned because there's scary spiders in it.

Well, I'm pretty sure there are people who were traumatized by another one dying. Yes, I know, that's hard to understand. Like, how can a person be scarred by the memory of their father up and dying on Christmas Eve? Or having to take care of a dying grandparent, knowing damn well they're gonna die any moment and there is no hope for them? Or having to face their own mortality and getting lucky enough to survive? Those things don't give you PTSD, they make you stronger!
Like, if you lose both legs, you become a stronger person! Because the inability to do half the things a non-paraplegic does builds character!

I am thoroughly disgusted by this attitude that "suffering builds character". There is no such thing. You're a person. When you're hurt, it will stay with you for a while. If you're hurt badly enough, it will stay with you forever. Those that say you get stronger have no idea what it's like to be traumatized, and if they do, they're lying to themselves in the hopes it will make the pain go away. It doesn't, but as long as society thinks it does, it's okay.

Luvly.

It is hard to understand, you're right. It's even harder to understand why if you've just seen someone die you'd go out and buy a game with more people dying in it. I don't know about whether suffering makes you stronger or weaker (neither would be my guess) but that single point should be pretty obvious. We know that kids need protecting from violence and sex which is why we have ratings - when you're not a kid anymore you're expected to be able to decide for yourself whether you need protecting any more. You become, as it were, your own parent.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

People who have been murdered are dead. Therefore they can't be offended by playing a game with murder in it. People who have been raped are alive (usually) and therefore can be offended.

That's an argument someone might choose to use. I would probably do so if I could be bothered, but the whole argument doesn't seem that important unless we're forcing these victims to play these games. I'm scared of spiders but I don't need Dragon Age banned because there's scary spiders in it.

Well, I'm pretty sure there are people who were traumatized by another one dying. Yes, I know, that's hard to understand. Like, how can a person be scarred by the memory of their father up and dying on Christmas Eve? Or having to take care of a dying grandparent, knowing damn well they're gonna die any moment and there is no hope for them? Or having to face their own mortality and getting lucky enough to survive? Those things don't give you PTSD, they make you stronger!
Like, if you lose both legs, you become a stronger person! Because the inability to do half the things a non-paraplegic does builds character!

I am thoroughly disgusted by this attitude that "suffering builds character". There is no such thing. You're a person. When you're hurt, it will stay with you for a while. If you're hurt badly enough, it will stay with you forever. Those that say you get stronger have no idea what it's like to be traumatized, and if they do, they're lying to themselves in the hopes it will make the pain go away. It doesn't, but as long as society thinks it does, it's okay.

Luvly.

It is hard to understand, you're right. It's even harder to understand why if you've just seen someone die you'd go out and buy a game with more people dying in it. I don't know about whether suffering makes you stronger or weaker (neither would be my guess) but that single point should be pretty obvious. We know that kids need protecting from violence and sex which is why we have ratings - when you're not a kid anymore you're expected to be able to decide for yourself whether you need protecting any more. You become, as it were, your own parent.

Okay, I'm confused. I didn't bring video games as an example (or in any other way) into this comment of mine... so how is that relevant? How is any of this relevant? I don't get it. You sure you meant this reply for me?

I thought your post was to bolster the argument against rape being in games. That's what this thread is about, after all. If not, then what WAS the point of your post?