Thor Is Getting Gender-Flipped. Officially.

[Atmos Duality]

Meh, I'll see what they do with the character first and then judge.
Gender alone isn't the defining point of a good character (a flat 2D wannabe or caricature perhaps), nuance is.

 

[Winnosh]

I don't see the big deal. People are acting like this is the first time Thor's been replaced. Hel, it isn't even the first time he's been replaced by a woman. It's temporary just like all of those other times. Just like Doc Ock replacing Peter Parker. It'll probably make a good story for a year, maybe two and then Thor comes back. Thor isn't even leaving the comic someone else is taking up the mantle while he's doing something else.

 

[SAMAS]

You know, I was on the "wait and see, 'cause you know it's probably gonna get retconned right back in three years or less" bus at first, then I read the part about Angela.

Now I'm worried.

 

[SAMAS]

Putting the politics aside...

What is the goal?

Seriously.

What is this supposed to do?

Sell comics.

Am I supposed to be impressed?

Maybe.

Am I supposed to be more interested in buying a Thor comic?

You specifically? No. They said it was a way to attract more female readers.

Whether or not that's the best way to do it? Now that's another story...

 

[votemarvel]

Yes, but as you'll notice, none of them have, or at least use, the last name Dredd.

That was exactly my point, I'm really not sure how you missed it.

Judge Rico was called Cadet Dredd before getting his full Eagle. He chose not to use the name 'Dredd' because of the weight that it carries.

I'm genuinely interested in what they'll do when Joe Dredd does eventually die. After all he and the world he inhabits ages in real time, Joe is touching 70 years old now.

Will they overdose him on Stookie in a story and revert his age? Will they put a new Judge in the role, could Rico take his original name back or could young Cadet Paris step into the role her 'dad' used to do (be interesting to see an active Judge with a kid.)

I'm much more excited about this future possibility of the Dredd name passing to a female judge than that of Thor.

US comics stay relatively static, there is always the expectation that things will return to the status quo and children are introduced sparingly.

Yet Dredd's world is constantly changing, constantly ageing. His views and attitude have changed a great deal, yet he remains the same person because he's been allowed to grow up. He even sees some of the c;ones as his eventual replacement.

Ah forgive the ramble. I love the world of Dredd and would equally love to see other characters, from other companies, be allowed to grow up as he has.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

?Feminism? has officially become as marketable a buzzword as ?feelgood films? to the cinema-viewing audience.

Anyway, no-one reads nor cares about comics beyond their film adaptations anymore. If you want to attract a female audience, start writing better material. Not all consumers are brain-dead morons.

 

[jklinders]

Still going with the very silly "breastplate" I see.

Spoiler

http://lostdelights.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/wotc-dd-artwork-modifiedg.jpg

Is this really about bringing more female characters to the forefront, or is this simply a market test to see if they can make this change and keep their readership?

I know this is comic books and all but one of the very first steps to achieving a semblance of equity between male and female characters is going to have to be how you draw them and their outfits. There are a lot more male comic book heroes in practical looking gear than female so i think they are still writing eye candy for their predominantly male audience while doing a beta test on who they can change. As many others have mentioned they can, have and might still change things back.

Edit, the link works, I just can't seem to imbed it quite right.

 

[votemarvel]

Still going with the very silly "breastplate" I see.

I once had a huge argument about the boob-place armour.

Yes it is impractical. Yes it isn't realistic.

But nor is magic. or dragons. Or Orcs. Or Frost Giants. Or Skrulls. Or Kree. Or Mole Men. etc.

Why should something, which to be fair is male titillation, be the only thing that must be realistic in what is otherwise a complete fantasy.

If someone is prepared to accept every other fantastical element of a story, why is it beyond that acceptance that boob-place is effective protection in that universe.

After all. None of it is real.

 

[jklinders]

Still going with the very silly "breastplate" I see.

I once had a huge argument about the boob-place armour.

Yes it is impractical. Yes it isn't realistic.

But nor is magic. or dragons. Or Orcs. Or Frost Giants. Or Skrulls. Or Kree. Or Mole Men. etc.

Why should something, which to be fair is male titillation, be the only thing that must be realistic in what is otherwise a complete fantasy.

If someone is prepared to accept every other fantastical element of a story, why is it beyond that acceptance that boob-place is effective protection in that universe.

After all. None of it is real.

It's not just Marvel. From old school sword and sorcery, to AD&D to nearly all popular film and other visual media are guilty of the same thing. Not all of them have magic and orcs and elves.

But Marvel is trying to be "progressive." Being progressive means doing more than gender flipping a character that has been male for decades, so maybe they should try to act it in ways that actually matter.



captcha; milkshake

interesting sence of irony there captcha.

 

[MCerberus]

This is tamer and less stupid than Doc Oc Spiderman.

Marvel's going in for diversity, and they're already fully expecting and have a plan to deal with the backlash. And generally the actual readership has been cool with it.

And regular Thor's going to be back anyway. How many supers ACTUALLY remain depowered forever (also, hai new Cap, that shield's a rental)

Also, no matter how much they try, Fem!Thor is not going to be as cool as JLU Hawkgirl

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

I imagine the conversation to be as follows:

"Thor, you have been found unworthy" *Takes mjolnir*
"Thor, you have been found worthy" *Gives mjolnir to female thor.*

the inscription reads "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor." so maybe it doesn't matter what her name is as she only has the power of Thor... also did everyone forget Throg

and Beta Ray Bill

Right, so this is established in continuity and does make some sense. There have been many times where Thor has been unworthy to lift his own hammer, and numerous other characters have managed to wield it (Captain America can normally hold it, Superman could sometimes hold it in some of the crossovers (although not all of them), there was that one random paramedic who handed it to Thor...)

Now, if this will be a good idea or not has yet to be seen. Moviebob actually discussed this, about how Link almost looked like a girl in the new trailer, and how people seemed to be able to accept the idea. One of his points was that there really has never been a complete gender swap for a big, franchise defining character. Race switches, yes, but gender switches?

This could be interesting, and making a woman one of the "Big Three" of the Avengers would be a nice change of pace. However, there are a lot of ways they could fuck this up, and they already have made one. If your going to appeal to women, don't just attach the same double dees you put on EVERY single comic book character. Thoriestia or whatever should have an flatter atheletic build. It makes more sense (she is carrying around a hammer forged from the center of a DYING STAR for Odin's sake) and would instantly show readers they can make a female character without huge sexualization.

 

[Grimbold]

It is quite disrespectful, treating a god like this. Gender swapping was seen as very shameful in Norse society.
It is like if some Japanese made a manga about Lady Jesus.

 

[Baresark]

Right, so this is established in continuity and does make some sense. There have been many times where Thor has been unworthy to lift his own hammer, and numerous other characters have managed to wield it (Captain America can normally hold it, Superman could sometimes hold it in some of the crossovers (although not all of them), there was that one random paramedic who handed it to Thor...)

He was never actually not worthy before. That is a new twist. If Thor is not around and his Hammer is there,and you are worthy, you get the power. There is an established history of other beings being worthy, it's not super rare, so far as I can tell. During the Civil War, Tony Stark and Reed Richards used a combination of magic and science to create a Thor clone, who consequently could wield the hammer and used it to kill Goliath during a battle. Thor got sweet revenge on Iron Man after that one by showing him how weak and insignificant he is compared to Mjolnir's Power.

I think the main issue for me is not that it's woman or anyone else (people love to vilify myself and others like me just because we have any criticism at all) , just that it doesn't make sense to keep the name. Should be interesting to see how he is all of the suddenly not worthy though. It honestly doesn't make any sense, but fiction.

 

[tzimize]

This may not be "Thorita" but this is a male superhero that they have slapped breasts on. Again, they really need to promote their legitimate female heroes more rather than aping long-established characters.

I've never understood this line of thinking at all. Women are just men with some breasts slapped on (OK, and some other parts changed/removed too), and vice versa for men. Yes, there are tendencies and attitudes that are more common to men or women, but that only matters when you're taking averages or doing statistics, individually the distinction is basically meaningless. A woman "acting like a man" is nothing unusual or bad, and neither is men "acting like women", I thought we'd moved on from that kind of crap?

Why does a female hero have to act in a "legitimate" female way? Do you examine each male hero to ensure they're living up to their legitimate manliness, too? Isn't all this incredibly sexist?

Like I said, I just don't get it at all.

Sexist. Not sure you really know what that means. Equality doesn't mean men and women are the same. It means they should have equal opportunities. Which are two completely different things.

Slapping breasts on a male is a perfect statement to sum up what they are doing. And its even worse since Thor is not a "mantle" like Batman, but an actual character. It would make as much sense to make Bruce Wayne into Babette Wayne just because we need more women in comics. Its a stupid move and I hope it blows up in their face.

Dont take that to mean I dont like women in comics. Quite the opposite. Hell, I'm rooting my ass of for a Wonder Woman movie. But honestly. Do it right. A GRAND example would be the Alias comic from MAX. Jessica Jones is a GREAT and fleshed out character. Just make more characters. Dont just slap boobs on men.

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

He was never actually not worthy before. That is a new twist.

Really? Never? I assumed they did that at least once in the comic, since that is what happened in the first film. I know Beta Ray was unworthy of his hammer at one point (for going insane after Galaticus ate his world or something) I just assumed they applied that to Thor at least ONCE in the comics up to this point.

 

[Baresark]

He was never actually not worthy before. That is a new twist.

Really? Never? I assumed they did that at least once in the comic, since that is what happened in the first film. I know Beta Ray was unworthy of his hammer at one point (for going insane after Galaticus ate his world or something) I just assumed they applied that to Thor at least ONCE in the comics up to this point.

Haha, I know, crazy. Nope, never has not been worthy. Once he was dead, which lead up to the whole clone thing. But a each of those times others utilizing the hammer for an extended period of time (IE Beta Ray Bill) was due to him getting separated in some way from the hammer.

 

[votemarvel]

He was never actually not worthy before. That is a new twist.

Really? Never? I assumed they did that at least once in the comic, since that is what happened in the first film. I know Beta Ray was unworthy of his hammer at one point (for going insane after Galaticus ate his world or something) I just assumed they applied that to Thor at least ONCE in the comics up to this point.

He couldn't lift the hammer in 'The Reigning' storyline as I recall. However he had been separated from his human 'host' at the time.

Though at the end of the arc, still separate from Jake Olson, he was able to lift Mjolnir again to fix his mistake.

 

[Charli]

It is quite disrespectful, treating a god like this. Gender swapping was seen as very shameful in Norse society.
It is like if some Japanese made a manga about Lady Jesus.

Boy better fear from those still practicing norse worshippers. There'll be bombings next.

Or just shut our pie holes and enjoy playing with what is essentially mythology. Same as every other dead religion that has fanfiction and work written about it.

And I'm pretty damn certain out there, somewhere, there's a lady jesus comic. And I'd read it with gusto.
Hell Japanese manga already made a thing where he and the holy buddha hang out in modern times and have an apartment together, if that's not some good old fashioned sacrilege, I don't know what is.

 

[Harrowdown]

I don't... I can't... what? What in the nine hells is this? Thor is a bloody name not a title. God/Goddess of Thunder should be the title. Can't she have her own fucking name, something that doesn't sound anything close to Thor, like Jessica or something. I hate to be the cynic here, but I agree with LightKnight, for now anyway. Their just strapping boobs onto a guy. I really hope they prove me wrong, I really hope so.

Jessica, the great and powerful goddess of thunder. yeah, that sure sounds impressive. [/sarcasm]

Thor doesn't have an alter ego, so the name is synonymous with the title of 'God of Thunder'. When Eric Masterson briefly took up the role, he went by Thor. I don't really get why you're quite this indignant. It's not the end of the world, man.

This may not be "Thorita" but this is a male superhero that they have slapped breasts on. Again, they really need to promote their legitimate female heroes more rather than aping long-established characters.

Personally, I think this is a positive move. It's long been established in the canon that Thor's powers derive from the hammer Mjolnir, not from Thor himself. "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor." Despite the gender-biased use of pronouns in that quote, the point is that the powers, and by extension the role of Thor, can be held by anyone worthy. Indeed, multiple characters throughout the comic's history have wielded Mjolnir, including some women. So although Thor himself is unchanging, his hammer and powers(and by extension his role as the God of Thunder, e.g. Eric Masterson) aren't tied exclusively to him. Ergo, this is not strapping boobs onto a male character. Rather, it's passing on a traditionally masculine role(not male, MASCULINE. There is a difference) to a female character who has proven herself worthy of the role. There's a lot of opportunity here to experiment with the concepts of gender roles and gender identity, and the fact that Thor is such a high profile character makes this a very strong statement of intent from Marvel, in relation to their attitude towards diversity in their comics. Besides, it's almost certainly a temporary move. Chances are good that Thor will get his hammer and title back, and the female Thor will get a title of her own.

Either that, or she'll end up in a fridge. Marvel has a shaky history with female characters, after all.

 

[Harrowdown]

I don't... I can't... what? What in the nine hells is this? Thor is a bloody name not a title. God/Goddess of Thunder should be the title. Can't she have her own fucking name, something that doesn't sound anything close to Thor, like Jessica or something. I hate to be the cynic here, but I agree with LightKnight, for now anyway. Their just strapping boobs onto a guy. I really hope they prove me wrong, I really hope so.

Jessica, the great and powerful goddess of thunder. yeah, that sure sounds impressive. [/sarcasm]

Thor doesn't have an alter ego, so the name is synonymous with the title of 'God of Thunder'. When Eric Masterson briefly took up the role, he went by Thor. I don't really get why you're quite this indignant. It's not the end of the world, man.

This may not be "Thorita" but this is a male superhero that they have slapped breasts on. Again, they really need to promote their legitimate female heroes more rather than aping long-established characters.

Personally, I think this is a positive move. It's long been established in the canon that Thor's powers derive from the hammer Mjolnir, not from Thor himself. "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor." Despite the gender-biased use of pronouns in that quote, the point is that the powers, and by extension the role of Thor, can be held by anyone worthy. Indeed, multiple characters throughout the comic's history have wielded Mjolnir, including some women. So although Thor himself is unchanging, his hammer and powers(and by extension his role as the God of Thunder, e.g. Eric Masterson) aren't tied exclusively to him. Ergo, this is not strapping boobs onto a male character. Rather, it's passing on a traditionally masculine role(not male, MASCULINE. There is a difference) to a female character who has proven herself worthy of the role. There's a lot of opportunity here to experiment with the concepts of gender roles and gender identity, and the fact that Thor is such a high profile character makes this a very strong statement of intent from Marvel, in relation to their attitude towards diversity in their comics. Besides, it's almost certainly a temporary move. Chances are good that Thor will get his hammer and title back, and the female Thor will get a title of her own.

Either that, or she'll end up in a fridge. Marvel has a shaky history with female characters, after all.


EDIT: Sorry, accidentally posted a duplicate.