Three Reasons for Robin

[dragontiers]

Riddle me this, does a Doctor have what it takes to take on the Bat?

Don't get my hopes up like that. I had to go in IMDB to see if that was real, and if it is they have no info on it. I don't know if he could do a good Riddler, but I would have to watch it anyways.

OT: I like the concept of Robin, but I would have to wait and see how it is implemented. It has potential, but the writer/director would have to be exceptional to work the origin in without it being too light. Then again, I thought they did a great job wit a "darker" Joker, and it would be too easy to make him to light as well. Here's hoping.

 

[pigmy wurm]

Hey I thought you comments on Robin were good the first time.

Also their hasn't been a movie done yet that actually focuses on Robin's origin in more than just a flashback.

Riddle me this, does a Doctor have what it takes to take on the Bat?

Better yet, the clock king. He hasn't been in anything yet.

 

[vorkon]

A 90 minute gender-swapped "Thomas Crowne Affair" with people in bat/cat outfits? That you could do, and it'd probably be AWESOME - but it ain't gonna happen

I don't see why not. I mean, nobody really expected them to go the places they did in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, did they?

And really, it would fit the place the story is in right now. Batman is a fugitive, (not to mention one with a convenient recently dead love interest) so a relationship with someone on the "other side," so to speak, makes perfect sense at this point in the story. The fact that they're both on the wrong side of the law makes the question of whether him putting on a mask to fight crime is really any different from her putting on a mask to commit them all that much more poignant, especially when there's no obvious, "yeah, the difference is I'm not a mass-freaking-murderer," answer like there was with the Joker.

I agree with your (Heh. I almost said "with Bob's" before I noticed who I was actually replying to) assessment that Robin is a necessary part of Batman's development as a character, and that he could very easily fit into the Nolanverse if done right, but this isn't the right point in the story to introduce him. Even if you ignore the fact that while being actively pursued by the police (as opposed to tacitly approved of and supported under the table) is a terrible time to try to adopt, I think that in order to be done properly, Robin would need his OWN story. Something about Batman learning what it means to be a father and a teacher, and all that, and discovering a bit about himself in the process. Trying to shoehorn his introduction into some other story would leave us with the same kind of mess we saw in the 90's movies.

If Nolan ever made a fourth Batman movie, however, I could easily see that one focusing on Robin. By that time the Nolanverse Batman would be old and wise enough to make taking on a student seem more natural, anyway.

Also, just because that's the way it's always done, doesn't mean the next Batman movie would NEED to be bigger and more spectacular. A more human story that just happens to star Batman would work just as well as yet another story about Batman foiling a plot to blow a lot of shit up. You'd draw in the people who like a good romance with a lot of conflict and intrigue, and the bat/cat suits would be enough to convince the people who wouldn't normally give that kind of movie a chance a reason to go see it anyway.

Besides, a scene in which Batman and Catwoman have to work together to steal some MacGuffin that Batman needs to Save The Day and Catwoman just wants for herself from some highly secure installation could be pretty darn spectacular in its own right, and easily has the potential to blow every other heist movie ever made out of the water if done right.

With a focus on Catwoman, they could even get away with not having one big headline villain to beat. I'd love to see superhero movies move away from the "new sequel=new villain" model that those same terrible 90's Batman movies we're complaining about now popularized. Iron Man is a good example of how this might work, and if he can do it Batman certainly can too.

 

[swenson]

Bob: THANK YOU!

Everyone still has this silly image of Robin from the 60s and the Adam West show, so of course any time someone brings up the possibility of Robin they all go "No, that would be awful." But maybe if Robin shows up in some mainstream stuff, everyone will finally just get over this ridiculous vendetta against one of my favorite characters of all time. Yeah, sure, so the short pants might have to go, and I wouldn't be completely against making the costume a bit more... restrained to match the tone of the rest of the movie, but... come on. We need Robin!

And if they don't think audiences will go for the eternally sunny son of circus acrobats, then why not use Jason Todd's backstory? Or even Stephanie Brown's (her backstory, if not herself)? Both of those are sufficiently dark for the tone of the Nolan films.

 

[Citrus]

I had my mind made up that there was absolutely no reason for Robin to be introduced in this Batman universe. It's not only because I hate him as a character and despise it every time he pops up in a Batman storyline, but because I couldn't think of any way that he could be incorporated into this series of movies in a way that makes sense and fits appropriately with the tone and Batman's current character.

And then I read this article... and my opinion did not change at all. Sorry.

Robin just "belongs there". Why? Because he's been part of Batman for a long time. So what? Does that mean he has to be shoehorned into every series, just for the sake of progressing the same old storyline?

Dark is dead? Because a few lighthearted superhero movies came out, Batman is supposed to jump on the bandwagon? By using "dark is dead" as a justification for having Robin, you're admitting that Robin wouldn't work in the dark, gritty tone created by Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. It's not like the next film in the series can just throw all that grittiness out the window and tack in the Boy Wonder because the "pendulum" is swinging in the opposite direction this time around. There's some degree of consistency that should be kept between films, and I'd hate for them to go against the tone of the first two films for the sake of appeasing the people who liked Iron Man. Why can't "fun" and "serious" superhero movies exist simultaneously?

And I agree that the next Batman film probably can't be darker than The Dark Knight, but as TDK is the middle film in what is about to be a trilogy, that's to be expected; the middle film always ends on the most downtrodden note. That doesn't mean that the next movie should try to be darker, as if grittiness defines the film's quality. It can still be dark, even if not as dark as TDK, while still telling the story of Batman coming from the brink and finding his place or what have you. And I believe they can do this without having to call in the inherently campy character we know as Robin.

Besides, if this cultural pendulum you speak of really exists and has been moving from gritty to quirky and colorful, a successful Batman movie in the series' dark tone is all it will take to kick it right back in the opposite direction.

EDIT: And yes, even if Robin is darkened up, I still can't see any way to incorporate him into the movie without it being ridiculous or forced. Bruce Wayne as he was at the end of the Dark Knight would never accept a teenage boy to start fighting crime with him. The Batman I know - the solitary loner who is more than willing enough to take punishment to keep people out of harm - just couldn't reasonably endanger the life of some underage kid to help him fight crime. That's part of why I hate the idea of Robin so much.

 

[Herr Wozzeck]

Hm... Well, I never saw the first Batman franchise, so I have no opinion on this. But seeing this, it's hard to argue against Bob, mainly because he brings up a lot of really good points. So we shall see.

By the way, Bob, a little nitpicking here. It's spelled "Die Fliedermaus". I don't think you even spelled it in German in the article.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Anyone besides me liked Batman Beyond? My friends (Like me) are into DC comics and batman but I'm the only one who liked this incarnation of the franchise.

Anyway, back on topic. I agree 100% Robin should show up in the next movie.

Are you kidding? I fucking love Batman Beyond. It is a terrific show. I wish it was still on.

 

[maninahat]

Those were all pretty convincing arguments...

Although I prefer my super heroes gritty, dark and edgy, and all that.

Reading this reminds me of how stupid the ending of The Dark Knight is. Not only would it have made much more sense for Batman to have blamed Two-Face's actions on the Joker, it would of hammered in the fact that the Joker succeeded 100% in demeaning someone to his own level.

In the current version, Gotham's symbol of justice has been compromised (the world thinks he is now a serial killer) for no adequate reason. It is the most significant plot hole (of many) in the movie, because it dictates how the sequel will turn out: It will be some tedious story in which the superhero has to prove to the world that he isn't a bad guy. Kind of boring, since we already know he isn't a bad guy. Plus the Spiderman films have already gone with that exact same plot in every movie.

Y-yyeah... All the super hero series are kind of predictable in the first place. Of COURSE you expect the titular hero to, you know, succeed, and usually survive along with it as well. Especially in most movies.

Examples: All superhero movies I can think of... The whole Rocky series... The whole Karate Kid series... And the list goes on.

Sorry, I'm having trouble seeing your point.

Now here is what I would do with a sequel to Dark Knight. Batman now has a crisis because everyone in Gotham thinks he's a serial killer. Without Batman as a symbol for justice and order, and Harvey Dent locking up the crooks, society gets hit by a new crime wave. Batman cannot get the people to rally behind him, and he finds himself unable to go out and fight crime as often because he keeps having to evade the police/the public. Batman realises he can't win people over just by doing good deeds, as the problem is all about image.

So to get around the problem, Batman creates a new, fresh superhero for people to have faith in. To ensure he doesn't end up being lumped in with the Batman as another despicable "masked menace", Batman makes this other guy the polar opposite in appearance and behaviour. Instead of being coated in black, fearsome and unapologetically violent, this new guy gets a colourful outfit, and actively appeals to the nostalgic, golden age of Gotham (US) popular culture. IN OTHER WORDS, Batman hires ROBIN to do his job and restore faith in super heroes.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

Seems Nolan has the O'Donnell trauma too. Its a good thing. Robin was essentially there to make things easier for the bad guys, not so much in recent comic history, but whenever I see him I can't help but think "Damn you O'Donnell!"

 

[TheDoctor455]

Anyone besides me liked Batman Beyond? My friends (Like me) are into DC comics and batman but I'm the only one who liked this incarnation of the franchise.

Anyway, back on topic. I agree 100% Robin should show up in the next movie.

I liked Batman Beyond...
well... at least until the movie where they basically cloned the Joker. That was stretching things a bit.

As for the article...
well... Moviebob, as much as I hate to admit it, you have a point about including Robin.
The main problem I have with Robin is that he tends to make things TOO light.

 

[The Great JT]

Let's see here, what could they do to bring some youthful energy to the dark and gritty Dark Knight...

-Dick Grayson
-Tim Drake
-Barbara Gordon (have they even mentioned her in the Nolan films, and I mean her as Barbara Gordon, not just Batgirl?)
-Bat-Mite (if they wanted to be stupid and pander to kids, despite how Bat-Mite is pretty enjoyable, if a little annoying, in Brave and the Bold)
-Ace the Bat-Hound

Who they'd probably bring in to keep the Dark Knight, well, Dark:

-Jason Todd (second Robin, killed by Joker, generally unliked by Batman fans for jerkass attitude)
-Cassandra Cain (as Batgirl, do a google search)

Also, it's already a forgone conclusion that they're going to bring in The Riddler as the movie's antagonist, but my question is who's next? To me, the dark, grim and gritty feel of The Dark Knight screams primarily of three villains that would thrive in its environment: Mr. Freeze, Scarecrow and Bane. However, they'd really have to go into depth with Freeze and Bane's backstories and it wouldn't hurt to flesh out Scarecrow more into a full-fledged supervillain, especially since he's been pretty much shafted by the Batman movies (ignored by the Burton and Shumaker films, glanced over in Batman Begins and appeared for about five minuets in Dark Knight). To me, here's how you implement Freeze, Bane and Scarecrow properly into the Nolan Batman films.

Mr. Freeze: Keep the backstory (cryogenecist who freezes his wife until he can find a cure for her (currently) incurable ailment, gets shoved into chemicals by dickhead boss and goes on a revenge-fueled spree), make the cryo-suit and freeze gun a little more sleek and compact, maybe downplay the wife thing a little bit. Or to put it quicker, "go watch Batman The Animated Series episode "Heart of Ice" and take close notes.
Bane: Okay, you're gonna have to go into backstory detail for Bane if he's in the movies as the villain. I'm serious, Bane is a mess to do as a Batman movie villain. He was born to serve his father's prison sentence in Peña Duro prison, he pretty much strong-arms his to the top of the prison's tough-guy list, is forced to become a test-subject for Venom, escapes Peña Duro and goes after Batman because he'd been seeing demonic bats in his nightmares all his life and was convinced that Batman was the source and seeks to conquer it. Best-case scenario, you end up with a modified Knightfall, where Bane breaks Batman's back and (nearly) cripples him (I say "nearly" because in the comics he DID cripple Bruce Wayne, but in the movies that'd probably not be a smart move), worst case scenario you end up with a generic super-strong mook (see "Batman and Robin"). Also, Bane is a tactical mastermind and not just a druggie version of the Hulk. He's polylingual (speaks multiple languages, among which are Spanish, French, German, Russian, Mandarin, English, Urdu, Farsi, and Latin), a math genius (despite having no actual mathematical education, he read countless encyclopedias and books in prison and is knowledgeable in Mathematics, various Sciences, History, Geography, Medicine, and most likely more) and possesses Olympic-level strength and reflexes, and that's just when he's not on Venom. On the stuff, he can lift up to 35 tons (about 35 Ford Mustangs, to put that in perspective), and he's still all the stuff I mentioned before. There's a reason this guy is the only person who's claimed to have "broken the bat" and it's because he's just awesome. And as one final thing, he has to have a spanish accent. Bane IS latin american, like it or not. Sure, not an easy thing to find the right image for the guy, but just use CGI for when he uses the Venom.
Scarecrow: We've already seen Scarecrow as an established bad guy in the Dark Knight, just don't make him a one-note deal. Scarecrow's not just the fear gas, he's a crazy psychologist who has a fascination with fear to the point that the only way he can actually feel fear is to fight Batman (or wear a Yellow Lantern ring, but that's another crisis crossover [http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Blackest_Night]). Look, the point is Scarecrow has been majorly downgraded from one of Batman's deadliest foes to quasi-drug dealer. Sure, he had that one moment in Batman Begins, but if a taser is what it takes to take him out and NOT Batman, something is wrong. Bottom line, promote Scarecrow to important villain.

 

[Kavonde]

Totally agreed with you during your review of The Losers, Bob, and totally agree with you now. Yes, Robin in the 90's movies was awful...just awful. But with a decent writer and Nolan's willingness to take a chance on the character, he could be exactly what the series (and Batman as a character) needs to get out of TDK's massive shadow.

 

[Call Me Arizona]

Anyone besides me liked Batman Beyond? My friends (Like me) are into DC comics and batman but I'm the only one who liked this incarnation of the franchise.

Anyway, back on topic. I agree 100% Robin should show up in the next movie.

I loved that series.

OT: I agreed with the article as well, though I wonder who would play Robin, which comic book version would he be (or would he be an entirely new one?), and things like that. I do think it would be nice to spice up the fight scenes with big tough batman and quick acrobatic Robin as well as Batman redeeming himself and becoming a father figure.

 

[smartyknickers]

I like the idea of having Batgirl as the sidekick and Harley Quinn or Poison Ivy. The Nolan movies seriously need more female characters. The Batman mythos has had plenty of great female characters, so it's kind of odd that Nolan's movies have been such a sausagefest. On that note: how about Renee Montoya? Also (and this will probably never happen) how about Batwoman?

This change in the direction of super hero movies to light and fun makes me want a Booster Gold movie. Just sayin.

 

[chozo_hybrid]

Anyone besides me liked Batman Beyond? My friends (Like me) are into DC comics and batman but I'm the only one who liked this incarnation of the franchise.

Anyway, back on topic. I agree 100% Robin should show up in the next movie.

Are you kidding? I fucking love Batman Beyond. It is a terrific show. I wish it was still on.

Me too, I just watched the movie Return of the Joker last night again.

The thing with the Harley idea, is that she only really works well as a villain with Mr Jay involved. Anyone else tries to fill that clowns shoes and it'll flop considering how much people loved Ledgers performance.

I like the idea of having Batgirl as the sidekick and Harley Quinn or Poison Ivy. The Nolan movies seriously need more female characters. The Batman mythos has had plenty of great female characters, so it's kind of odd that Nolan's movies have been such a sausagefest. On that note: how about Renee Montoya? Also (and this will probably never happen) how about Batwoman?

This change in the direction of super hero movies to light and fun makes me want a Booster Gold movie. Just sayin.

As long as Ted is in it!

 

[KeyMaster45]

AAAAND, combine this with my Harley Quinn idea (see above) and you have a great theme of hero-worship going awry and the impressionable effect that characters like Batman and Joker have on young people.

Screw Nolan, me and you will make this movie!

God, yes, we need Harley Quinn in the next Batman movie. That is the only way I can see throwing robin into the mix working. I mean holy flying-ass-crackers I can only imagine how Nolan would portray her in his world of Batman, granted she wouldn't be hanging with the Joker( god rest his drug filled soul) but still it would make for an amazing story and still be playing off the joker from the last movie. Just make Harley his agent of chaos now that he's in Arkham.

I could kiss you...I really could...but you're an interweb person...so I won't.

 

[RestamSalucard]

Riddle me this, does a Doctor have what it takes to take on the Bat?

Don't get my hopes up like that. I had to go in IMDB to see if that was real, and if it is they have no info on it. I don't know if he could do a good Riddler, but I would have to watch it anyways.

No, it's just a mock-up done by JoshWMc.
[a]http://io9.com/5040178/meet-the-stars-of-the-next-knight[/a]

 

[MovieBob]

Not to get all "fan-fiction" about it, but... one argument in favor of Harley Quinn is that it's a way of doing Joker as an offscreen presence - i.e. she's the "outside agent" and Joker is an unseen voice in a cell, or whatever. That said... I have a hard time believing that the Nolan brothers have any more interest in a character who's name is a pun than they do in any of the other "odd" stuff in the franchise. (OLD RUMOR: Supposedly at one point in the development of "Dark Knight," the shady Asian mob-bankers were going to be British arms-dealers, and their boss - that guy Batman essentially kidnaps - was going to be Oswald Cobblepot; who's underworld nickname would, of course, be The Penguin.)

Here's a thought: What if Robin got his OWN movie? As in, the whole origin-story as told from Robin's p.o.v. with a lighter tone/style than the "main" Batman movies, and whoever is playing Batman/Bruce Wayne at the time is there as a "supporting" player - i.e. ACT I: Dick Grayson, boy acrobat, parents die. ACT II: "I'm adopted by aloof rich weirdo, going out looking for revenge on my own as Robin." ACT III: "Turns out rich weirdo is BATMAN, he says if I won't stop this vigilante stuff he'll have to at least show me how to do it right." THE END. If it works? Super, put the kid in the next movie. Doesn't work? Ah well, it was just a spin-off.

 

[Evilproduct]

No. Robin cannot enter this franchise. Complain all you want, he DOESN"T FIT! Chris Nolan's Batman is dark, gritty, and real. Essentially he is taking the Batman universe out of the DC universe taking that retarded Batman/Superman BFF crap and chucking it out the window along with it and making the comic book superhero seemingly real.

Batman is amazingly remade in Batman Begins and the concept of the Caped Crusader (billionaire playboy who dresses up in a Batsuit at night and beats criminals to a bloody pulp) is made really believable. Even the character of Ra's Al Ghul, the Scarecrow, The Joker, and Two-Face seem like they could actually exist in this world today. Unfortunately that makes the possibility of some of the classic unrealistic villians of years past (Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, Bane [ironically the villians of "Batman & Robin" *shiver*] etc.) unable to be rendered, but we can forgive Nolan for that. It frees up the oppurtunity to portray some of the infinitly better villians of the series like The Riddler, Harley Quinn, and Hush. Oh, and I almost forgot to mention Batman's on-again-off-again love interest/master jewel thief villian Catwoman who we can hopefully resurrect from the monstrosity that was Halle Barry's interpretation of the VILLIAN, i stress that again, VILLIAN. Catwoman was never a superhero, she was always a VILLIAN. Just like the Silver Surfer in the second craptacular mess that was the Fantastic Four sequel where the shiny surfing superhero was recast as an world destroying villian, Catwoman needs to be fixed.

Alfred has been shifted from the role of Bruce Wayne's butler to that of his partner-in-vigilantism, essentially a precursor to Oracle. By the way, has anypne else but me noticed that Barbara Gordon is lovingly absent from the Chris Nolanverse Batman films? Yea she may have been referenced in TDK, but she isn't actually shown. The only two Gordons we really care about are Gary Oldman's spectacular Commisioner Gordon and his son who is growing very close to Batman as he slinks in the shadows of Gotham City.

Where was I going with this...oh yeah, Robin. Think about Chris Nolan's Batman, played fantastically by Christian Bale. He became the Batman entirely to fulfill his inner desire to help the city of Gotham escape from the stranglehold criminals had it in. He doesn't need help past Alfred, his surrogate father figure, and he goes about his business in a Lone Wolf kind of way. The first scene on TDK portrays this to a certain extent when Batman imitators tried to take out the Scarecrow and his drug running operation. Granted Bruce's main gripe with the imitators was that they were using guns and actually attempting to KILL people, he still could have advised the imitators in the ways of crimefighting if he WANTED their help.

I maintain my belief from before. Unless they can find a way of introducing a Robin character into the next Batman movie, giving him enough screentime so he becomes close to both us as the viewers and Bruce as a person, and then killing him off to further fuel Batman's dark lone wolf escapades as the Dark Knight of Gotham City (Much like the 2nd Robin was in the comics BY FAN SUBMISSION I MIGHT ADD! Yeah, DC comic literally gave the readers the choice of wether or not to kill off Robin and the chosen option ended up with Robin murdered by the Joker. Proof that the fans know what they want.), i am 100% completely, totally, irrevocably, and undeniably against Robin showing up in the Nolanverse Batman films. Chris O'Donnell, i must partly blame you for ruining the character even further the way you did.

And i swear to god if i even hear the name of the city Metropolis referenced in the new Batman film I will flip. Batman and Superman have no place in the same universe.

 

[MB202]

That's really sad... I WOULD like to see Robin in the next Batman movie, since, well, all the Batman movies Robin HAS been in were not so well-received by Batman fans, ESPECIALLY the one Batman movie with Robin's name in the title.

But now that superhero films are actually being done well, maybe it's time to give Robin another chance.