TLOU2 Review Thread

Phoenixmgs

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That's not what she said. She said that this is how IGN scores, and that a 10 out of 10 does not mean perfect. Even the allmighty Skillup/Laymen gaming agreed with that. And I'll again point to the IGN reviews of Death Stranding and Days Gone which they scored below a 7. Which people then also got pissed off about.
"So a 5 is mediocre, that does not mean average. The reason that you get so many game review scores that are around the 7 range is because, frankly, most of the games that these major sites are reviewing (or major magazines or whatever) are really fucking good. If you only play AAA games, which let's be honest, most most gamers do, then you only see the games that are getting 8s, 9s, and 10s because they are usually extremely high quality."
 
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"So a 5 is mediocre, that does not mean average. The reason that you get so many game review scores that are around the 7 range is because, frankly, most of the games that these major sites are reviewing (or major magazines or whatever) are really fucking good. If you only play AAA games, which let's be honest, most most gamers do, then you only see the games that are getting 8s, 9s, and 10s because they are usually extremely high quality."
And how is that wrong?
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Ok reading about the reviews and some of the additional leaks that have come out the reviews make much more sense.
This isn't a fun game

To avoid spoiling much else I'm putting the rest of my thoughts in the spoiler box on this post

(The Spoiler section below contains unconfirmed leaked info on The Last of Us Part II's ending along with spoilers for the Gone Girl, The Mist, Million Dollar Baby and the indie game LISA open at your own risk)

This is end game stuff after the other leaked info. All you need to know before this point is Abby, who is the daughter of one of the doctors Joel killed in The Last of US has killed Joel in revenge for him killing her father.

Dina (girl from the trailer) and Ellie are together on a farm raising Dina's child together along with the child's father Tommy. Ellie is suffering PTSD from having to watch Joel be brutally killed by Abby. Tommy comes in with information about where Abby is.

Dina tries to convince Ellie not to go but she does anyway.

Abby has been captured by one of the groups in the area and Ellie kills basically all of them.

She gets to the beach where the last members of the group are about to crucify Abby.

Ellie kills them and pulls down Abbey who asks if Ellie has come to help save her. Ellie then says no she just wanted to kill Abby herself.

They fight and Ellie gets the upper hand eventually and is about to kill Abby but he has a hallucination of Joel playing the guitar and this gives Abby time to jump onto a boat and start sailing away.

Ellie goes back to the farm where Dina and Tommy were only to find it empty with both them and the baby gone.

Ellie then goes to her room to get her guitar and prepares to play to help calm herself. Only to find that because she lost 2 finders in the fight with Abby she can no longer even play the guitar.


It's the type of media I'd describe as Hopedeath (A term I made up because I'm sure there is a proper one but I don't know it).
It's like the Indie game LISA or the films, Million Dollar Baby, The Mist or Gone Girl.
It's an ending where the protagonist is left totally hopeless. Or the story makes everything seem pointless and hopeless and futile.
It's not Misery Porn because that is often about overcoming horrible problems.
It's not Grimdark because that's edgy violent stuff with dystopia stuff thrown in quite often but even then generally there are victories in the bleak setting and hope however fleeting it may seem by the end.

If the ending is true it will piss people off because Joel saved Ellie in the first game so she could live and grow up and what happens when she grows up? She loses everything and ends the game in a position where everything is utterly hopeless, she's lost the girl she loves; she's lost her group as such; She's lost Joel; She lost the ability to do one of the things Joel taught her that reminds her of him in the form of playing the guitar. It's making it seem like the ending of The Last of Us Part 1 was picking you up jut so Part II could make sure your hopes could be made to fall from a greater height as the only thing worse than no hope is often false hope. If the ending is true it leaves Ellie basically destroyed on so many levels and it's such a depressing hopeless ending people won't enjoy it.

I wouldn't even say it's compelling as an ending as such to want to get toward.
This isn't even a "uuuhhh this games not fun" thing. Plenty of stuff can not be fun to see in films or play but it can be compelling to see a person overcome the challenges and get a happy or at least somewhat ambiguous ending. An outright everything is ruined, they failed and lost everything ending? They're very rare and often you really have to be in the right frame of mind to be able to appreciate such things and given all that's going on in the world that ain't now for a lot of people even those that can or would put themselves through it at other more stable less unpredictable times and tumultuous times.

Well that's what I've gotta say on it.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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And how is that wrong?
AAA games from a design standpoint aren't really very good. Look at IGN's reviews of the AssCreed series, the lowest score of the mainline series is 6.8 for Rogue (not counting the portable games or remasters or 2D games). AssCreed is the ultimate AAA version of throw shit at the wall and see what sicks. Oh, people hated the tower defense crap, let's get rid of it. Oh, people actually liked that ship stuff in AC3, let's make a pirate game then. IGN gave Unity a 7.8 and that was a buggy mess of game that wasn't even a polished turd. Even the very 1st AssCreed didn't really know what it was. The main assassinations were super lite versions of a Hitman game basically. The idea of the rest of the game was that you'd gather your own intel (unlike Hitman), which isn't a bad idea, it was just horribly executed with the same 3 or 4 things done over and over again. The whole climbing/parkour system was fresh and new then, but the game design supporting it was nothing but. Then, they just ditched the whole structure of the 1st game for a very GTA-like mission structure because actually making the 1st game but designed well is far harder. Lastly, the AssCreed games don't even have the more interesting systemic gameplay elements of other Ubisoft games like FarCry or Watch Dogs, which are both also better stealth games than the game that's about ASSASSINS.

And, Dunkey #1 and #2
 
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Casual Shinji

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AAA games from a design standpoint aren't really very good. Look at IGN's reviews of the AssCreed series, the lowest score of the mainline series is 6.8 for Rogue (not counting the portable games or remasters or 2D games). AssCreed is the ultimate AAA version of throw shit at the wall and see what sicks. Oh, people hated the tower defense crap, let's get rid of it. Oh, people actually liked that ship stuff in AC3, let's make a pirate game then. IGN gave Unity a 7.8 and that was a buggy mess of game that wasn't even a polished turd. Even the very 1st AssCreed didn't really know what it was. The main assassinations were super lite versions of a Hitman game basically. The idea of the rest of the game was that you'd gather your own intel (unlike Hitman), which isn't a bad idea, it was just horribly executed with the same 3 or 4 things done over and over again. The whole platforming/parkour system was fresh and new then, but the game design supporting it was nothing but. Then, they just ditched the whole structure of the 1st game for a very GTA-like mission structure because actually making the 1st game but designed well is far harder. Lastly, the AssCreed games don't even have the interesting systemic gameplay elements of other Ubisoft games like FarCry or Watch Dogs, which are both also better stealth games than the game that's about ASSASSINS.

And.. Dunkey #1 and #2
Yeah, but you hate AAA games by default, so I don't think a discussion on the matter will go vey far.

The point is that IGN is not nearly as prone to giving high scores to AAA games as everyone thinks, unless it's a game the person in questions thinks deserves a low score.
 
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Gyrobot

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Ok reading about the reviews and some of the additional leaks that have come out the reviews make much more sense.
This isn't a fun game

To avoid spoiling much else I'm putting the rest of my thoughts in the spoiler box on this post

(The Spoiler section below contains unconfirmed leaked info on The Last of Us Part II's ending along with spoilers for the Gone Girl, The Mist, Million Dollar Baby and the indie game LISA open at your own risk)

This is end game stuff after the other leaked info. All you need to know before this point is Abby, who is the daughter of one of the doctors Joel killed in The Last of US has killed Joel in revenge for him killing her father.

Dina (girl from the trailer) and Ellie are together on a farm raising Dina's child together along with the child's father Tommy. Ellie is suffering PTSD from having to watch Joel be brutally killed by Abby. Tommy comes in with information about where Abby is.

Dina tries to convince Ellie not to go but she does anyway.

Abby has been captured by one of the groups in the area and Ellie kills basically all of them.

She gets to the beach where the last members of the group are about to crucify Abby.

Ellie kills them and pulls down Abbey who asks if Ellie has come to help save her. Ellie then says no she just wanted to kill Abby herself.

They fight and Ellie gets the upper hand eventually and is about to kill Abby but he has a hallucination of Joel playing the guitar and this gives Abby time to jump onto a boat and start sailing away.

Ellie goes back to the farm where Dina and Tommy were only to find it empty with both them and the baby gone.

Ellie then goes to her room to get her guitar and prepares to play to help calm herself. Only to find that because she lost 2 finders in the fight with Abby she can no longer even play the guitar.


It's the type of media I'd describe as Hopedeath (A term I made up because I'm sure there is a proper one but I don't know it).
It's like the Indie game LISA or the films, Million Dollar Baby, The Mist or Gone Girl.
It's an ending where the protagonist is left totally hopeless. Or the story makes everything seem pointless and hopeless and futile.
It's not Misery Porn because that is often about overcoming horrible problems.
It's not Grimdark because that's edgy violent stuff with dystopia stuff thrown in quite often but even then generally there are victories in the bleak setting and hope however fleeting it may seem by the end.

If the ending is true it will piss people off because Joel saved Ellie in the first game so she could live and grow up and what happens when she grows up? She loses everything and ends the game in a position where everything is utterly hopeless, she's lost the girl she loves; she's lost her group as such; She's lost Joel; She lost the ability to do one of the things Joel taught her that reminds her of him in the form of playing the guitar. It's making it seem like the ending of The Last of Us Part 1 was picking you up jut so Part II could make sure your hopes could be made to fall from a greater height as the only thing worse than no hope is often false hope. If the ending is true it leaves Ellie basically destroyed on so many levels and it's such a depressing hopeless ending people won't enjoy it.

I wouldn't even say it's compelling as an ending as such to want to get toward.
This isn't even a "uuuhhh this games not fun" thing. Plenty of stuff can not be fun to see in films or play but it can be compelling to see a person overcome the challenges and get a happy or at least somewhat ambiguous ending. An outright everything is ruined, they failed and lost everything ending? They're very rare and often you really have to be in the right frame of mind to be able to appreciate such things and given all that's going on in the world that ain't now for a lot of people even those that can or would put themselves through it at other more stable less unpredictable times and tumultuous times.

Well that's what I've gotta say on it.
Thanks for the informative read, I can understand why this is so off-putting to the gamer audience. And what kind of audience would enjoy this kind of soul crushing media? Because quite frankly I didn't mind it because I don't really find the joy of escapism during hard times
 

Dreiko

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Ok reading about the reviews and some of the additional leaks that have come out the reviews make much more sense.
This isn't a fun game

To avoid spoiling much else I'm putting the rest of my thoughts in the spoiler box on this post

(The Spoiler section below contains unconfirmed leaked info on The Last of Us Part II's ending along with spoilers for the Gone Girl, The Mist, Million Dollar Baby and the indie game LISA open at your own risk)

This is end game stuff after the other leaked info. All you need to know before this point is Abby, who is the daughter of one of the doctors Joel killed in The Last of US has killed Joel in revenge for him killing her father.

Dina (girl from the trailer) and Ellie are together on a farm raising Dina's child together along with the child's father Tommy. Ellie is suffering PTSD from having to watch Joel be brutally killed by Abby. Tommy comes in with information about where Abby is.

Dina tries to convince Ellie not to go but she does anyway.

Abby has been captured by one of the groups in the area and Ellie kills basically all of them.

She gets to the beach where the last members of the group are about to crucify Abby.

Ellie kills them and pulls down Abbey who asks if Ellie has come to help save her. Ellie then says no she just wanted to kill Abby herself.

They fight and Ellie gets the upper hand eventually and is about to kill Abby but he has a hallucination of Joel playing the guitar and this gives Abby time to jump onto a boat and start sailing away.

Ellie goes back to the farm where Dina and Tommy were only to find it empty with both them and the baby gone.

Ellie then goes to her room to get her guitar and prepares to play to help calm herself. Only to find that because she lost 2 finders in the fight with Abby she can no longer even play the guitar.


It's the type of media I'd describe as Hopedeath (A term I made up because I'm sure there is a proper one but I don't know it).
It's like the Indie game LISA or the films, Million Dollar Baby, The Mist or Gone Girl.
It's an ending where the protagonist is left totally hopeless. Or the story makes everything seem pointless and hopeless and futile.
It's not Misery Porn because that is often about overcoming horrible problems.
It's not Grimdark because that's edgy violent stuff with dystopia stuff thrown in quite often but even then generally there are victories in the bleak setting and hope however fleeting it may seem by the end.

If the ending is true it will piss people off because Joel saved Ellie in the first game so she could live and grow up and what happens when she grows up? She loses everything and ends the game in a position where everything is utterly hopeless, she's lost the girl she loves; she's lost her group as such; She's lost Joel; She lost the ability to do one of the things Joel taught her that reminds her of him in the form of playing the guitar. It's making it seem like the ending of The Last of Us Part 1 was picking you up jut so Part II could make sure your hopes could be made to fall from a greater height as the only thing worse than no hope is often false hope. If the ending is true it leaves Ellie basically destroyed on so many levels and it's such a depressing hopeless ending people won't enjoy it.

I wouldn't even say it's compelling as an ending as such to want to get toward.
This isn't even a "uuuhhh this games not fun" thing. Plenty of stuff can not be fun to see in films or play but it can be compelling to see a person overcome the challenges and get a happy or at least somewhat ambiguous ending. An outright everything is ruined, they failed and lost everything ending? They're very rare and often you really have to be in the right frame of mind to be able to appreciate such things and given all that's going on in the world that ain't now for a lot of people even those that can or would put themselves through it at other more stable less unpredictable times and tumultuous times.

Well that's what I've gotta say on it.
This sound all pretty good stuff. I just find it funny that the people who are likely to have been vocally against "fridging" are calling this innovative or progressive in any way.

Me, I always liked it, notwithstanding if it was done to men or women, so I still find that it sounds good here. Though that last part sounds a little too berserk gol. den era ending but not going all the way with the mutilation for it to be taken as seriously. This sounds like a case where people complaining just don't like bad endings more so than the ending being just bad. Me, I love Berserk, my fav manga. :p

We just gotta give Ellie a mech arm now, one that's also a cannon and crossbow.
 
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Gyrobot

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Dreiko, that is kind of missing the point of the game. It isn't some over the top action game but a down to earth one.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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Yeah, I was saying as a hypothetical that if you played the game and loved the story, it wouldn't make his review any less accurate.
Yeah with story it mostly boils down the eye of the beholder. I don’t frequent a lot of YouTuber’s or even enough mainstream sites to know whether my gaming ideals align with anyone else’s enough to base my opinion on something enough before ever playing it for myself. Like you said, you can get a decent idea through an aggregate of a few favorites’ opinions, but at the same time you or I both don’t know them personally. There’s always a chance they have personal feelings about certain things that they can’t talk freely about in a broad hyper-exposed social sphere like the internet that would deep down affect how they view something. Or maybe they woke up on a different side of the bed that day.

I got the impression from Skill Up especially that TLoU2 wasn’t going to jive with him regardless based on tone and adjectives alone. Although he did admit to not being especially fond of the original either, at least in terms of gameplay.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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The Laymen Gaming posted the following video about Alanah Pearce (former IGN reviewer) talking about the review process. The biggest facepalm moment was her saying that AAA games should get basically 7-10/10 scores because they are the best games and most gamers only play AAA games so complaining that [insert AAA game] sucks only means it sucks in comparison to AAA games and not that it sucks in general. Yeah... AAA games are not close to being the best games out there, a polished turd is still a... you know. A better stealth game literally came out the same week as TLOU2, which goes by the name of Desperados 3.


John Wick is far more than just some dumb action movie.

I really like the demo of Desperados 3. Generally shy away from RTS stuff due to the steep learning curve with the amount of hotkey commands and busywork type of gameplay, but this feels different. Almost like if Shadowrun was more robust in its systems and not turn based.

Having said that, it’s really tough to compare it to a completely different game design like third person survival ie TLoU2. Is there more depth and variety of tactics in D3? Of course, but at the same time it will never have anywhere near the level of immersion and “on the ground” feel. Its almost like a left brain/right brain thing, where D3 can provide elation through mental gymnastics, whereas TLoU can put my stomach in my chest through tension and immersion.

*edit* here’s a different take on the latter game from anything I’ve read so far.
 
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CriticalGaming

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Well if nothing else, the trophy list seems incredibly simple. No difficulty settings, and seems to simply "beat the game and find all the collectibles along the way". So if you are a Platinum hunter and can stomach your way through the game, this is a fairly easy one to get.

 

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For all the talk about agenda I wonder if the games staunchest critics don't have one too.

Ellie's rival would always been very controversial due to what she did and how the game expects you to see her favorable. But I rather doubt that the backlash against the character would be so severe if she wasn't a woman, and a woman that looked rather manly to boot.

And for all the talk about leftist agenda plaguing the game I can't say the game comes off as particularly bold. If anything its really conventional and safe. Revenge stories are incredibly stale and even to this day they are often played entirely straight. However ''Revenge is bad m'kay'' is only barely less cliche these days and TLOU2's story heavily embraces the sentiment that ''Revenge is bad m'kay''. A message that might have been profound five years ago is pretty pedestrian now.
 
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A message that might have been profound five years ago is pretty pedestrian now.
Even before 5 years ago, that message had already gotten old for me. Been there, done that in video games, anime, film, and books.
 

CriticalGaming

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For all the talk about agenda I wonder if the games staunchest critics don't have one too.

Ellie's rival would always been very controversial due to what she did and how the game expects you to see her favorable. But I rather doubt that the backlash against the character would be so severe if she wasn't a woman, and a woman that looked rather manly to boot.

And for all the talk about leftist agenda plaguing the game I can't say the game comes off as particularly bold. If anything its really conventional and safe. Revenge stories are incredibly stale and even to this day they are often played entirely straight. However ''Revenge is bad m'kay'' is only barely less cliche these days and TLOU2's story heavily embraces the sentiment that ''Revenge is bad m'kay''. A message that might have been profound five years ago is pretty pedestrian now.

I dunno, but I can tell you this, in the first 15 minutes of the game you play as Ellie and she inforgivingly belittles a guy for being drunk and making homophobic remarks at her the night before (though we don't see this encounter)

Apparently Ellie and another girl kissed, this guy talked shit, and Joel kissed his ass.

The next morning, Ellie is asked to go talk to this guy who hangs his head in shame at her and apologizes his ass off. He even gives her sandwiches for her patrol. Ellie calls him a bigot, then passed the sandwiches to her partner calling them "bigot sandwiches".

Which to me sets the tone for the ideology behind the writing on display within this game already. This guy was drunk and said shit he regrets, and then apologizes and tries to make it right or at least make a good faith offering, but Ellie doesn't forgive and just belittles him. Which is just like the Far Left to demonize someone forever for a single mistake and no amount of apologizing will help. One fuck up and you are ostracized for life, regardless of circumstances.

You see it all the time right? Someone makes a comment on Facebook or Twitter that someone doesn't like and they are basically lynched out of their job and their livelyhood just for saying fucking words.

So an hour into the game and i already have a shitty taste in my mouth.
 
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Gyrobot

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Well if nothing else, the trophy list seems incredibly simple. No difficulty settings, and seems to simply "beat the game and find all the collectibles along the way". So if you are a Platinum hunter and can stomach your way through the game, this is a fairly easy one to get.

At least Druckmann is honest in his intentions of making the game an engaging experience.
 

CriticalGaming

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At least Druckmann is honest in his intentions of making the game an engaging experience.
True....I mean I don't think Druckmann deliberately is trying to make a bad game or story. I just think his personal ideologies are blinding him to the fact that he isn't making a product that people will generally enjoy.
 

SilentPony

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True....I mean I don't think Druckmann deliberately is trying to make a bad game or story. I just think his personal ideologies are blinding him to the fact that he isn't making a product that people will generally enjoy.
Was he the one who said Last of us 2 wasn't a game to be enjoyed? That you wouldn't have fun with the experience, or was that someone else?
 

CriticalGaming

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Was he the one who said Last of us 2 wasn't a game to be enjoyed? That you wouldn't have fun with the experience, or was that someone else?
I think it was him, but I believe that quote was him being defensive of the criticism from the leaks.
When people are going, "This is making us miserable to play." Then as a creator he would naturally go, "Well that was the point of my art."

But the question is, would he have said that if everyone was in love with the game?
 

SilentPony

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I think it was him, but I believe that quote was him being defensive of the criticism from the leaks.
When people are going, "This is making us miserable to play." Then as a creator he would naturally go, "Well that was the point of my art."

But the question is, would he have said that if everyone was in love with the game?
Rather than in love with, would he have said it if everyone enjoyed it and thought it was a hysterical romp of bloody joy and delightful pain? Like X and Y happen, he meant it to be grim and dark, and basically everyone is a Cenobite and laughs and laughs and laughs.
I think that would have been the ultimate backfire. Not loving it for being dark, but finding it light-hearted and carefree.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Yeah, but you hate AAA games by default, so I don't think a discussion on the matter will go vey far.

The point is that IGN is not nearly as prone to giving high scores to AAA games as everyone thinks, unless it's a game the person in questions thinks deserves a low score.
I don't have anything against AAA games. A good game is a good game regardless who made it. I literally have said numerous times that MOH Warfighter was the best online FPS of last-gen, which is both a AAA game and a rather unpopular stance. I don't care that "evil" EA made it nor did I let poor review scores cloud my perception of the game. Speaking of EA and last-gen, Mirror's Edge (which I just bought on Steam for $2) is the best 3D platformer of last-gen too. Mirror's Edge Catalyst is a good example of how most AAA game design goes wrong (open world design with copy-pasted content filled with collectibles). How many AAA looter shooters have there been and are any of them even considered better than Warframe? Or look at how Temtem is considered a better Pokemon game than Pokemon. Back to AssCreed, the shear amount of creative directors the series has had (and it was a new IP last-gen) just means the design is going to be all over the place whereas the Metal Gear series had one guy directing them for 25+ years.