To me Game of Thrones will never be the same (S4E8 discussion)

[BloatedGuppy]

Fair point, but arrogance doesn't really come into grey morality, IMO. And if he didn't have an arc, he'd be a bit shit as a character.

All I'm saying is that his is the only motivation that's strictly heroic. Being arrogant about his lackluster peers doesn't mean he's not a decent guy, and even if it did, he's past that now. That, and he's the only living follower of Ned Stark's honor mentality. XD

Spoiler: book based comment going quite far ahead

I have read the books, so I do know he gets stabbed the fuck up at the end of 'Dragons, but that's clearly open ended.

Ah...since you've read the books...

Spoiler: ADWD spoilers

...Jon's need to be a "noble man" is actually played for a weakness. He's constantly making decisions based on what Jon the man thinks is right via his personal sense of honor, and not off what the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch should think is best for the realm. He's constantly meddling in the affairs of the North and the Realm...something that is meant to be verboten for a brother of the Night's Watch, let alone their commander. He colludes with Mance Rayder to rescue Arya. Why? She's his sister...the family he's meant to have left behind. He shelters Alys Karstark and even brokers a marriage for her as if he was King in the North. He helps Stannis at every turn despite not trusting the man OR his plans for the Night's Watch, because he knows he opposes the Lannisters, and he still wants to see them brought low. And it all culminates when he actually calls the Watch to muster to MARCH SOUTH and engage Ramsay Snow in combat. Why? Because Jon believes his sister is in danger, and Ramsay's nature offends Jon's sensibilities.

AFFC and ADWD are all about principles eroding their commands/institutions from within through their own follies, weaknesses and blindness. Jon's selfishness and "good heart", Dany's lust for war and vengeance, Cersei's paranoia and hubris.

I quite like that GRRM finally took some luster off both Dany and Jon in ADWD. Both were teetering on the edge of becoming Mary Sue's at point during the first three books.

 

[Ulquiorra4sama]

You know... we all knew the fight was coming this week and i looked at the match-up going: Well it's Game of Thrones so Oberyn's probably gonna die, right? I kinda like him despite how little time he's gotten on-screen... but then if people like him that only makes him more likely to die, right? Eh, whatever i'll just get this done"

And then i watched it and things actually looked good for a while there. Oberyn was dodging and then taking quick snaps at the Mountain just like a proper viper should, not taking any real damage. Then he knocked the Mountain on his ass and i'm like "Holy shit". But then Oberyn drew his spear out of him and i went "Nonono! What the hell are you doing?!" And then that happened.

Subverting expecations? More like toying with my fucking heart. Everyone kept saying "If you have a favourite character in Game of Thrones you're gonna have a bad time". Why don't i ever learn? Dx

 

[Branindain]

Okay OP, without going into book-related territory as to why this fight has to go the way it does, I would like to dispute your claim that the good guys are always copping the worst of it. It seems that way when you get invested in a character, and certainly the Starks are impressively luckless, but to me the beauty of the story is that EVERYBODY cops it. It's not some grim, negative story of "the bad guys always win", it's just a story of a violent world with a lot of indiscriminate death. Remember, Viserys, Joffrey, Balon Greyjoy and Lysa Arryn are dead too (and we're due for another one soon btw, which I won't spoiler because you won't guess who).

 

[KaZuYa]

He killed the bugs because he could even though none of them did or would ever pose the slightest threat to him, why kill anything just because you can? So Tyrion set the bug down.

 

[Zhukov]

No amount of "ukemi" is getting you out of that.

I've just realised why this word seemed so familiar to me.

Spoiler

Uh... I'm afraid your no doubt brilliant and funny pop culture reference is utterly lost on me.

Is that one of the guys from Friends? I vaguely remember that show being a thing.

Anyway, despite catching a bit of a mangling in this thread, "ukemi" is actually a thing. In Japanese martial arts (I know it's used in aikido and judo, but I presume others as well) it refers to the techniques used to mitigate a fall and regain your footing. At it's simplest, it involves twisting to fall on your side or back, thus avoiding being winded. At it's best, it involves rolling or tumbling to redirect momentum then using it to propel yourself directly upright.

 

[Zhukov]

*shrug*

He went up against a hugely powerful fighter then started swaggering about instead of finishing the fight. Behaviour that was in accordance with his established personality. And his stupidity cost him his life.

He wasn't being cocky, he just despised the mountain due to what he did to his family, and he really didn't care at all about Tyrion's trial.

He was torturing the Mountain, he seriously wanted to hear the Mountain confess to what he did, but because of that, he died.

He wasn't even afraid of death to begin with. He knew that he may very well die fighting the Mountain due to the Mountain's reputation, but he was definitely going to kill him.

The Red Viper is renown purely for the fact that he's killed a lot of people through poison which he puts on his blades. Now I've not read the books, but I think it's pretty darn obvious that he succeeded in killing the Mountain, even if they haven't shown it yet.

I have read the books.

He was being cocky. He was being the cockier than the cockiest of the cocky cocks.

"I have just bested one of the most dangerous fighters in the known world. I shall now prance about grandstanding instead of finishing the job."

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I should have clarified that i haven't read ahead in the books. I've read the POV for this scene.

You read it too, but you missed the point of the situation almost entirely.

But whatever, i'll just leave you to your opinion.

I've read the books myself. Many times.

Your take on Oberyn...that he doesn't really care about Tyrion's trial, that he's there for revenge, that he wants to make a spectacle of the Lannister's crimes in front of a large audience...that's all true.

However, Zhukov is correct. Oberyn WAS cocky. The Red Viper of Dorne did not suffer from a deficit of confidence.

 

[Magmarock]

I've been thinking about better ways to word this and I came up with a metaphor I think works. With stores of this nature we have what I like to call a rubber band affect

I'll use joffrey as an example. From season 2 joffrey does a bunch of bad things and this causes build up and the rubber band gets starched.

Spoiler

Along come the purple wedding where he dies a most gruesome and deserving death.

this causes the rubber band to be released and it flies throw the air. It was awesome.

However with Oberyn's death the rubber was released and came right back and smacked you in the eye. It's just just a big let down to what was a really promising build up.

 

[Loonyyy]

Okay OP, without going into book-related territory as to why this fight has to go the way it does, I would like to dispute your claim that the good guys are always copping the worst of it. It seems that way when you get invested in a character, and certainly the Starks are impressively luckless, but to me the beauty of the story is that EVERYBODY cops it. It's not some grim, negative story of "the bad guys always win", it's just a story of a violent world with a lot of indiscriminate death. Remember, Viserys, Joffrey, Balon Greyjoy and Lysa Arryn are dead too (and we're due for another one soon btw, which I won't spoiler because you won't guess who).

On the topic of "bad guys and good guys". Spoilers for the show, don't think I spoiled anything for the books past the show, maybe Oberyn's reputation, but that's a stretch.

Spoiler

I see that a lot, and I honestly think that people are trying to watch it as a more fairytale/high fantasy type setting, and adamantly refuse to understand that it's exactly not that. That's why so many were so annoyed by the Red Wedding, because they didn't get it, even after so many characters, major and minor, died, no matter what nobility they expressed. Ned dies, Yoren (Who, while a bit of an ass, protects Arya, and those in his care) dies, Lady (Sansa's direwolf) is killed, Mika (The butcher's boy) dies. And now Oberyn(Who I'm not sure why people are seeing as good. Yes, Pedro Pascal was charming as hell. Yes, Tyrion's a fan favourite. But we never see him do anything all that good, apart from stab a Lannister soldier in the hand (I guess Lannister means villain to some still. The Starks have fallen. Deal with it), and proclaim he's out for revenge. Who else was out for revenge? Viserys. To an extent, Littlefinger. Vengeance isn't a noble motive. They did leave out(IIRC) the trail of bodies Oberyn has left across Westoros by poisoning blades in duels, but even then, why's he "good"?)

The innocent, the noble, the "good" and those who the reader is rooting for often suffer, but it's a peculiar lack of interest in the other stories that are parallel that are ignored. For some reason, Robb Stark is a hero (Even though the book and the show don't focus on him to exclusion, they alternate between a cast), but apparently Jaime Lannister's redemption arc, Brienne's arc, Stannis's warmaking through Davos's eyes, and the like aren't important(In that many say they'll stop watching. To which I say good. It's not meant for you). It seems that most people's list consists of whoever's most heroic, Tyrion, Jon, and Danaerys as protagonists, and everyone else is chopped liver. I can't imagine how boring the show must be to watch this way.

On choreography:

Spoiler

And there's a hell of a lot of nitpicking of choreography. Two things:

1) The show varies from scene to scene on choreography. We've seen scenes where we're expected to believe that our supposedly intelligent hero Jon manages to lose 4 men charging 10 drunken men scattered around a bunch of hovels, and then almost being killed by a man with a couple of knives. In the same episode, we saw Ramsay run into combat shirtless, against ironborn raiders. Don't trust the choreography, it's just something pretty to look at. The real story has very little to do with sword fights. Yeah, you can complain about the choreography, but that's not a criticism of the script, or the story, that's a criticism of the way they set it out.

2) As said by many, the Mountain is a fucking Mountain. It's actually quite fortunate Oberyn chooses a spear, because it keeps him away from him. He hacked most way through a horses neck, simply because it annoyed him. He's cut men, and women in half. He's equal parts monster and myth. He's a sadistic monster who'd press his child brother's face into hot coals over an imagined slight just to watch him burn. Nitpicking that Oberyn shouldn've ninja'd his way up completely misses the point: Oberyn's arrogance and desire for revenge (And showy revenge, rather than the subtlety he should have gone for) result in his downfall. He was lucky to even wound the Mountain. Once he strayed within striking distance (And if you were really watching the choreography-that was the message you should have taken, none of this Ukemi, martial artist purity crap [And it really is crap, just pure anime, mythmaking rubbish. Look at some pragmatic martial arts, MMA stuff, Krav Maga, Muai Thai, hell, your basic self defense class is more accurate than the nonsense that surrounds the nobility of Karate, or Kung-fu]), it was all over. Oberyn's only chance was staying out of Clegane's reach, and we've had this outright said to the camera by Bronn, and then shown in the fight. His arrogance and rage caused him to make the mistake of getting too close.

Read a little between the lines of the choreography you're nitpicking to get the point. (And yes, there's a point to Ramsay's shirtlessness etc, and even to the knife fight. They're unrelated, and I still think those are some of the worst examples because the message behind the choreography is stupid, illogical, or incongruent with the story)

 

[chikusho]

Oberyn's death made perfect sense within how the story has been presented so far.
He came to Westeros with a singular purpose, and he has been following that purpose with arrogance, sanctimoniousness and reckless abandon from the moment he set foot there. He's been talking about killing Lannisters in nearly every scene, inside the lions den so to speak. Clearly he was not afraid of dying, and naturally this was going to become his undoing.

Contrary to the OP, this episode only cemented why I love the show so much. I desperately wanted Oberyn to survive, but knowing that might not happen made the fight truly exciting. Every time he took a tumble I thought he was almost certainly done for. Every time he got a blow in felt like a victory against the impossible. But with every victory, his priorities became more apparent. Repeating that same line: "You raped her, you killed her, you killed her children" with increased ferocity and anger, so full of himself, and certain he had everything under control, he even took his eyes off his opponent to give a victorious glance towards his lover..

And then The Mountain grabs him. It was almost poetic in its brutality. Oberyn gets his confession only while dying by the hands of the same monster that killed his beloved sister.

 

[ACman]

As good as the writing in the shows are I felt that this time they over did it.

Well it had to be done otherwise the books and the show would have to diverge quite severely.

I think it came as less of a shock in the books because in this was very shortly after the Red Wedding. And since Oberyn wasn't a POV character we don't really know him all that well compared to how charismatically he was playing in the show.

It's unfortunate but this descision was taken WAAAAAAAAAY back whe GRRM wrote 'A Storm of Swords'.

 

[Jandau]

Personally, I think Oberyn's death is one of Martin's best subversions of common tropes since Eddard Stark's death.

Consider for a moment - Oberyn is introduced at a point where we're starting to run low on major characters. Things are simmering down, most major conflicts are resolved and we're at a low boil, so to speak. Then, a new character is introduced! He is cool, awesome, has a rich backstory and history behind him, represents a part of Westeros we've heard next to nothing about, he's honorable yet mischievous and his quest is one people can get behind. He ties into the existing plot of the books well and sets up for future conflicts with the Lannisters.

His duel with the Moutain is also set up wonderfully - this new guy gets a scene to cement his awesomeness and to show that he'll be dedicated to fucking with the Lannisters, it also serves to get Tyrion off the hook (what with him being the most loved character in the books), a thoroughly vile character gets his comeuppance (The Mountain pretty much has no redeeming qualities and is one of the most deplorable people in Westeros, which is saying a lot) and it's all tied up with a neat little bow. Also, since he was a newly introduced major character, we all assumed it would provide him with at least some amount of plot armor.

Then the Mountain murders the fuck out of him. And the outcome makes perfect sense.

Yes, Oberyn is a skilled fighter, but The Mountain is pretty much the top dog in that regard. And yet Oberyn was winning. He would have won, but he was too awesome for his own good. This is a man not used to things not turning out his way, a man used to being so good at everything that failure isn't really an option. And while he is generally right in that assumption, it also blinded him. Mixed with his burning desire for revenge, and not just revenge, but also a public admission of crimes, he dropped his guard. His own arrogance (deserved as it might have been) and his rage together clouded his senses at a critical moment, and that's all it takes when facing someone like Gregor Clegane.

The show handled it very well, too. They did a great job of building Oberyn up, both as a womanizer, a skilled fighter and a sly schemer. He was everyone's favorite character within a few episodes of his appearance. He was perfect in amost every regard. His setup was even better than in the books (at least in my opinion).

Then the fight came and it was also done just right. The fighting styles of the two champions was distinct, there was some back and forth, but eventually Oberyn's superior skill prevailed. And at the critical moment, he hesitated, blinded by his arrogance and thirst for vengeance.

And finally, his death was brutal. Personally, I found the fight of his shattered teeth dropping to the floor somehow even more disturbing than the whole eye gouging, skull squishing part. The Mountain was literally breaking him, as if Oberyin wasn't a person, but a piece of meat. And the point was made:

You don't get to win just because you are in the right.

You don't get a pretty death just because you're cool and everyone likes you.

Valar Morghuils

 

[Amaror]

First and foremost please bare in mind that I have not read the books so please no spoils past this episode. Also if you have seen episode 8 yet this thread will be full of spoilers for this episode.

Spoiler

So prince Oberyn Martell dies in what is quite possibly the most gruesome and shocking death in GoT which is really saying something considering the show's reputation.

I must admit though that this left a particularly bitter and mean spirited after taste. For the first time I find myself unhappy with the writers discussion and the direction the story is going.

I'd like to know if anyone else felt the same way.

I'd like to explain why I feel this way and ask if anyone else feels the same way.

Oberyn was my favorite character in the show. Even more so then Tyrion Lannister. Form the start I liked him. He felt like the new hero the show desperately needed. I didn't expect him to last I knew he was too good to last, but I was expecting and hopping that he'd kill Gregor Clegane and maybe take out a few Lannisters before leaving or biting the dust.

As good as the writing in the shows are I felt that this time they over did it.

I understand that this is Game of Thrones and tragedy is bound to happen and no one is safe. But for the me the real tragedy is that my investment in the other characters has basically been reduced to nothing. I'm still going to watch the show and I'm still interested in what happens next, but I no longer care too much if the character pull through or not. I learned long ago that no one in GoT was safe but the new lesson from this episode is that not only is no one safe any of the characters can be killed in the most mean spirited way when things appear at their brightest.

As a result I don't think GoT will be able to shock me again. I feel that it's blown it's load and at this point and I will no longer be moved by any further revelations or main character deaths.

All, because the bad guys have had one too many victories. Joffrey's death was one victory for the good guys out of a dozen for the bad guys and each season thus far has ended with a very dark and mean spirited tone.

Spoiler

Ned Stark's death, Black Water, Red Wedding, and now Oberyn

You know how if you make the good guys over powered you stop caring; well I'm worried GoT is doing the same with the bad guys. It gets to a point where I've just lost hope for the good guys and whatever quasi hope they get will soon be shattered by tragedy around the corner.

So what do yous guys think. Was the timing of Oberyn Martell's death a disservice to the story? and how did it make you feel. How do you feel about the show's future?

Not gonna spoil the books so i am just going to say that you might want to watch the next episode before deciding to quit.

 

[SacremPyrobolum]

THe mountain had armor and a huge fucking sword. The outcome should have been obvious.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

I remember reading this chapter and being somewhat surprised at first, until I read it back and really, realy thought about it.

Spoiler

Oberyn goes into the fight uninterested in championing Tyrion. It's a Tyrion chapter, but it's all just a stage for Oberyn trying to sow dissent and get the justice he knew he'd be denied. He's smart, he knows that Tywin won't just deliver a war machine like Gregor Clegane into his hands. As a result Oberyn isn't 100% invested in the fight, he's invested in making Gregor squirm and give up Tywin for Elia's rape and murder. There is a minor change in the tv show, which I thought was interesting: he seemed surprised to lose.

Honestly I think he was less surprised and more "in pain". Even if you're fully prepared to die, the sudden sensation of falling backwards will put a look of surprise on your face, and the pain of someone pressing your eyeballs in would make you scream.

I don't think he was surprised to lose, I think he was just surprised to die in that particular way, due to it being so improbable.

Oh totally, don't get me wrong, that was a hell of a way to go. In Westeros the custom seems to be boiling the flesh off and interring the bones. Destroying his skull like that is like double the defeat. But there's a particular line in the show where Oberyn states "Today is not the day I die". That completely changed the context of the fight for me. I think that was where TV Oberyn and Book Oberyn diverged and it made the scene more tragic. Also the screams... Tyrion's POVs are usually extra descriptive, because Tyrion pays attention to detail. But I don't recall him mentioning Oberyn screaming, though that's a small thing and could have just been an oversight or a given, but I pictured his death as being either too quick or Oberyn too stubborn to give Gregor the satisfaction.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

Oh totally, don't get me wrong, that was a hell of a way to go. In Westeros the custom seems to be boiling the flesh off and interring the bones. Destroying his skull like that is like double the defeat. But there's a particular line in the show where Oberyn states "Today is not the day I die". That completely changed the context of the fight for me. I think that was where TV Oberyn and Book Oberyn diverged and it made the scene more tragic. Also the screams... Tyrion's POVs are usually extra descriptive, because Tyrion pays attention to detail. But I don't recall him mentioning Oberyn screaming, though that's a small thing and could have just been an oversight or a given, but I pictured his death as being either too quick or Oberyn too stubborn to give Gregor the satisfaction.

If he didn't scream, I don't think it would have been as gruesome. It was the squirms and screams that did it for me. It makes me shudder just thinking about it.