To me Game of Thrones will never be the same (S4E8 discussion)

[Zhukov]

No amount of "ukemi" is getting you out of that.

I've just realised why this word seemed so familiar to me.

Spoiler

Uh... I'm afraid your no doubt brilliant and funny pop culture reference is utterly lost on me.

Is that one of the guys from Friends? I vaguely remember that show being a thing.

Anyway, despite catching a bit of a mangling in this thread, "ukemi" is actually a thing. In Japanese martial arts (I know it's used in aikido and judo, but I presume others as well) it refers to the techniques used to mitigate a fall and regain your footing. At it's simplest, it involves twisting to fall on your side or back, thus avoiding being winded. At it's best, it involves rolling or tumbling to redirect momentum then using it to propel yourself directly upright.

 

[Zhukov]

*shrug*

He went up against a hugely powerful fighter then started swaggering about instead of finishing the fight. Behaviour that was in accordance with his established personality. And his stupidity cost him his life.

He wasn't being cocky, he just despised the mountain due to what he did to his family, and he really didn't care at all about Tyrion's trial.

He was torturing the Mountain, he seriously wanted to hear the Mountain confess to what he did, but because of that, he died.

He wasn't even afraid of death to begin with. He knew that he may very well die fighting the Mountain due to the Mountain's reputation, but he was definitely going to kill him.

The Red Viper is renown purely for the fact that he's killed a lot of people through poison which he puts on his blades. Now I've not read the books, but I think it's pretty darn obvious that he succeeded in killing the Mountain, even if they haven't shown it yet.

I have read the books.

He was being cocky. He was being the cockier than the cockiest of the cocky cocks.

"I have just bested one of the most dangerous fighters in the known world. I shall now prance about grandstanding instead of finishing the job."

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I should have clarified that i haven't read ahead in the books. I've read the POV for this scene.

You read it too, but you missed the point of the situation almost entirely.

But whatever, i'll just leave you to your opinion.

I've read the books myself. Many times.

Your take on Oberyn...that he doesn't really care about Tyrion's trial, that he's there for revenge, that he wants to make a spectacle of the Lannister's crimes in front of a large audience...that's all true.

However, Zhukov is correct. Oberyn WAS cocky. The Red Viper of Dorne did not suffer from a deficit of confidence.

 

[Magmarock]

I've been thinking about better ways to word this and I came up with a metaphor I think works. With stores of this nature we have what I like to call a rubber band affect

I'll use joffrey as an example. From season 2 joffrey does a bunch of bad things and this causes build up and the rubber band gets starched.

Spoiler

Along come the purple wedding where he dies a most gruesome and deserving death.

this causes the rubber band to be released and it flies throw the air. It was awesome.

However with Oberyn's death the rubber was released and came right back and smacked you in the eye. It's just just a big let down to what was a really promising build up.

 

[Loonyyy]

Okay OP, without going into book-related territory as to why this fight has to go the way it does, I would like to dispute your claim that the good guys are always copping the worst of it. It seems that way when you get invested in a character, and certainly the Starks are impressively luckless, but to me the beauty of the story is that EVERYBODY cops it. It's not some grim, negative story of "the bad guys always win", it's just a story of a violent world with a lot of indiscriminate death. Remember, Viserys, Joffrey, Balon Greyjoy and Lysa Arryn are dead too (and we're due for another one soon btw, which I won't spoiler because you won't guess who).

On the topic of "bad guys and good guys". Spoilers for the show, don't think I spoiled anything for the books past the show, maybe Oberyn's reputation, but that's a stretch.

Spoiler

I see that a lot, and I honestly think that people are trying to watch it as a more fairytale/high fantasy type setting, and adamantly refuse to understand that it's exactly not that. That's why so many were so annoyed by the Red Wedding, because they didn't get it, even after so many characters, major and minor, died, no matter what nobility they expressed. Ned dies, Yoren (Who, while a bit of an ass, protects Arya, and those in his care) dies, Lady (Sansa's direwolf) is killed, Mika (The butcher's boy) dies. And now Oberyn(Who I'm not sure why people are seeing as good. Yes, Pedro Pascal was charming as hell. Yes, Tyrion's a fan favourite. But we never see him do anything all that good, apart from stab a Lannister soldier in the hand (I guess Lannister means villain to some still. The Starks have fallen. Deal with it), and proclaim he's out for revenge. Who else was out for revenge? Viserys. To an extent, Littlefinger. Vengeance isn't a noble motive. They did leave out(IIRC) the trail of bodies Oberyn has left across Westoros by poisoning blades in duels, but even then, why's he "good"?)

The innocent, the noble, the "good" and those who the reader is rooting for often suffer, but it's a peculiar lack of interest in the other stories that are parallel that are ignored. For some reason, Robb Stark is a hero (Even though the book and the show don't focus on him to exclusion, they alternate between a cast), but apparently Jaime Lannister's redemption arc, Brienne's arc, Stannis's warmaking through Davos's eyes, and the like aren't important(In that many say they'll stop watching. To which I say good. It's not meant for you). It seems that most people's list consists of whoever's most heroic, Tyrion, Jon, and Danaerys as protagonists, and everyone else is chopped liver. I can't imagine how boring the show must be to watch this way.

On choreography:

Spoiler

And there's a hell of a lot of nitpicking of choreography. Two things:

1) The show varies from scene to scene on choreography. We've seen scenes where we're expected to believe that our supposedly intelligent hero Jon manages to lose 4 men charging 10 drunken men scattered around a bunch of hovels, and then almost being killed by a man with a couple of knives. In the same episode, we saw Ramsay run into combat shirtless, against ironborn raiders. Don't trust the choreography, it's just something pretty to look at. The real story has very little to do with sword fights. Yeah, you can complain about the choreography, but that's not a criticism of the script, or the story, that's a criticism of the way they set it out.

2) As said by many, the Mountain is a fucking Mountain. It's actually quite fortunate Oberyn chooses a spear, because it keeps him away from him. He hacked most way through a horses neck, simply because it annoyed him. He's cut men, and women in half. He's equal parts monster and myth. He's a sadistic monster who'd press his child brother's face into hot coals over an imagined slight just to watch him burn. Nitpicking that Oberyn shouldn've ninja'd his way up completely misses the point: Oberyn's arrogance and desire for revenge (And showy revenge, rather than the subtlety he should have gone for) result in his downfall. He was lucky to even wound the Mountain. Once he strayed within striking distance (And if you were really watching the choreography-that was the message you should have taken, none of this Ukemi, martial artist purity crap [And it really is crap, just pure anime, mythmaking rubbish. Look at some pragmatic martial arts, MMA stuff, Krav Maga, Muai Thai, hell, your basic self defense class is more accurate than the nonsense that surrounds the nobility of Karate, or Kung-fu]), it was all over. Oberyn's only chance was staying out of Clegane's reach, and we've had this outright said to the camera by Bronn, and then shown in the fight. His arrogance and rage caused him to make the mistake of getting too close.

Read a little between the lines of the choreography you're nitpicking to get the point. (And yes, there's a point to Ramsay's shirtlessness etc, and even to the knife fight. They're unrelated, and I still think those are some of the worst examples because the message behind the choreography is stupid, illogical, or incongruent with the story)

 

[chikusho]

Oberyn's death made perfect sense within how the story has been presented so far.
He came to Westeros with a singular purpose, and he has been following that purpose with arrogance, sanctimoniousness and reckless abandon from the moment he set foot there. He's been talking about killing Lannisters in nearly every scene, inside the lions den so to speak. Clearly he was not afraid of dying, and naturally this was going to become his undoing.

Contrary to the OP, this episode only cemented why I love the show so much. I desperately wanted Oberyn to survive, but knowing that might not happen made the fight truly exciting. Every time he took a tumble I thought he was almost certainly done for. Every time he got a blow in felt like a victory against the impossible. But with every victory, his priorities became more apparent. Repeating that same line: "You raped her, you killed her, you killed her children" with increased ferocity and anger, so full of himself, and certain he had everything under control, he even took his eyes off his opponent to give a victorious glance towards his lover..

And then The Mountain grabs him. It was almost poetic in its brutality. Oberyn gets his confession only while dying by the hands of the same monster that killed his beloved sister.

 

[ACman]

As good as the writing in the shows are I felt that this time they over did it.

Well it had to be done otherwise the books and the show would have to diverge quite severely.

I think it came as less of a shock in the books because in this was very shortly after the Red Wedding. And since Oberyn wasn't a POV character we don't really know him all that well compared to how charismatically he was playing in the show.

It's unfortunate but this descision was taken WAAAAAAAAAY back whe GRRM wrote 'A Storm of Swords'.

 

[Jandau]

Personally, I think Oberyn's death is one of Martin's best subversions of common tropes since Eddard Stark's death.

Consider for a moment - Oberyn is introduced at a point where we're starting to run low on major characters. Things are simmering down, most major conflicts are resolved and we're at a low boil, so to speak. Then, a new character is introduced! He is cool, awesome, has a rich backstory and history behind him, represents a part of Westeros we've heard next to nothing about, he's honorable yet mischievous and his quest is one people can get behind. He ties into the existing plot of the books well and sets up for future conflicts with the Lannisters.

His duel with the Moutain is also set up wonderfully - this new guy gets a scene to cement his awesomeness and to show that he'll be dedicated to fucking with the Lannisters, it also serves to get Tyrion off the hook (what with him being the most loved character in the books), a thoroughly vile character gets his comeuppance (The Mountain pretty much has no redeeming qualities and is one of the most deplorable people in Westeros, which is saying a lot) and it's all tied up with a neat little bow. Also, since he was a newly introduced major character, we all assumed it would provide him with at least some amount of plot armor.

Then the Mountain murders the fuck out of him. And the outcome makes perfect sense.

Yes, Oberyn is a skilled fighter, but The Mountain is pretty much the top dog in that regard. And yet Oberyn was winning. He would have won, but he was too awesome for his own good. This is a man not used to things not turning out his way, a man used to being so good at everything that failure isn't really an option. And while he is generally right in that assumption, it also blinded him. Mixed with his burning desire for revenge, and not just revenge, but also a public admission of crimes, he dropped his guard. His own arrogance (deserved as it might have been) and his rage together clouded his senses at a critical moment, and that's all it takes when facing someone like Gregor Clegane.

The show handled it very well, too. They did a great job of building Oberyn up, both as a womanizer, a skilled fighter and a sly schemer. He was everyone's favorite character within a few episodes of his appearance. He was perfect in amost every regard. His setup was even better than in the books (at least in my opinion).

Then the fight came and it was also done just right. The fighting styles of the two champions was distinct, there was some back and forth, but eventually Oberyn's superior skill prevailed. And at the critical moment, he hesitated, blinded by his arrogance and thirst for vengeance.

And finally, his death was brutal. Personally, I found the fight of his shattered teeth dropping to the floor somehow even more disturbing than the whole eye gouging, skull squishing part. The Mountain was literally breaking him, as if Oberyin wasn't a person, but a piece of meat. And the point was made:

You don't get to win just because you are in the right.

You don't get a pretty death just because you're cool and everyone likes you.

Valar Morghuils

 

[Amaror]

First and foremost please bare in mind that I have not read the books so please no spoils past this episode. Also if you have seen episode 8 yet this thread will be full of spoilers for this episode.

Spoiler

So prince Oberyn Martell dies in what is quite possibly the most gruesome and shocking death in GoT which is really saying something considering the show's reputation.

I must admit though that this left a particularly bitter and mean spirited after taste. For the first time I find myself unhappy with the writers discussion and the direction the story is going.

I'd like to know if anyone else felt the same way.

I'd like to explain why I feel this way and ask if anyone else feels the same way.

Oberyn was my favorite character in the show. Even more so then Tyrion Lannister. Form the start I liked him. He felt like the new hero the show desperately needed. I didn't expect him to last I knew he was too good to last, but I was expecting and hopping that he'd kill Gregor Clegane and maybe take out a few Lannisters before leaving or biting the dust.

As good as the writing in the shows are I felt that this time they over did it.

I understand that this is Game of Thrones and tragedy is bound to happen and no one is safe. But for the me the real tragedy is that my investment in the other characters has basically been reduced to nothing. I'm still going to watch the show and I'm still interested in what happens next, but I no longer care too much if the character pull through or not. I learned long ago that no one in GoT was safe but the new lesson from this episode is that not only is no one safe any of the characters can be killed in the most mean spirited way when things appear at their brightest.

As a result I don't think GoT will be able to shock me again. I feel that it's blown it's load and at this point and I will no longer be moved by any further revelations or main character deaths.

All, because the bad guys have had one too many victories. Joffrey's death was one victory for the good guys out of a dozen for the bad guys and each season thus far has ended with a very dark and mean spirited tone.

Spoiler

Ned Stark's death, Black Water, Red Wedding, and now Oberyn

You know how if you make the good guys over powered you stop caring; well I'm worried GoT is doing the same with the bad guys. It gets to a point where I've just lost hope for the good guys and whatever quasi hope they get will soon be shattered by tragedy around the corner.

So what do yous guys think. Was the timing of Oberyn Martell's death a disservice to the story? and how did it make you feel. How do you feel about the show's future?

Not gonna spoil the books so i am just going to say that you might want to watch the next episode before deciding to quit.

 

[SacremPyrobolum]

THe mountain had armor and a huge fucking sword. The outcome should have been obvious.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

I remember reading this chapter and being somewhat surprised at first, until I read it back and really, realy thought about it.

Spoiler

Oberyn goes into the fight uninterested in championing Tyrion. It's a Tyrion chapter, but it's all just a stage for Oberyn trying to sow dissent and get the justice he knew he'd be denied. He's smart, he knows that Tywin won't just deliver a war machine like Gregor Clegane into his hands. As a result Oberyn isn't 100% invested in the fight, he's invested in making Gregor squirm and give up Tywin for Elia's rape and murder. There is a minor change in the tv show, which I thought was interesting: he seemed surprised to lose.

Honestly I think he was less surprised and more "in pain". Even if you're fully prepared to die, the sudden sensation of falling backwards will put a look of surprise on your face, and the pain of someone pressing your eyeballs in would make you scream.

I don't think he was surprised to lose, I think he was just surprised to die in that particular way, due to it being so improbable.

Oh totally, don't get me wrong, that was a hell of a way to go. In Westeros the custom seems to be boiling the flesh off and interring the bones. Destroying his skull like that is like double the defeat. But there's a particular line in the show where Oberyn states "Today is not the day I die". That completely changed the context of the fight for me. I think that was where TV Oberyn and Book Oberyn diverged and it made the scene more tragic. Also the screams... Tyrion's POVs are usually extra descriptive, because Tyrion pays attention to detail. But I don't recall him mentioning Oberyn screaming, though that's a small thing and could have just been an oversight or a given, but I pictured his death as being either too quick or Oberyn too stubborn to give Gregor the satisfaction.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

Oh totally, don't get me wrong, that was a hell of a way to go. In Westeros the custom seems to be boiling the flesh off and interring the bones. Destroying his skull like that is like double the defeat. But there's a particular line in the show where Oberyn states "Today is not the day I die". That completely changed the context of the fight for me. I think that was where TV Oberyn and Book Oberyn diverged and it made the scene more tragic. Also the screams... Tyrion's POVs are usually extra descriptive, because Tyrion pays attention to detail. But I don't recall him mentioning Oberyn screaming, though that's a small thing and could have just been an oversight or a given, but I pictured his death as being either too quick or Oberyn too stubborn to give Gregor the satisfaction.

If he didn't scream, I don't think it would have been as gruesome. It was the squirms and screams that did it for me. It makes me shudder just thinking about it.

 

[Magmarock]

Not gonna spoil the books so i am just going to say that you might want to watch the next episode before deciding to quit.

Oh of course, I'm not ready to stop watching it just yet, but this is the first time GoT has disappointed me in terms of build up and I feel less enthusiastic about the outcomes of the other characters. Not to the point were I'll stop watching it, but to a lager point then before.

but I was expecting and hopping that he'd kill Gregor Clegane and maybe take out a few Lannisters before leaving or biting the dust.

No real spoilers, just a reminder and a hint:

He did kill Gregor; There's a good reason why Oberyn is called "The Red Viper"...

That is kind of a spoiler but I already know.

Personally, I think Oberyn's death is one of Martin's best subversions of common tropes since Eddard Stark's death.

Consider for a moment - Oberyn is introduced at a point where we're starting to run low on major characters. Things are simmering down, most major conflicts are resolved and we're at a low boil, so to speak. Then, a new character is introduced! He is cool, awesome, has a rich backstory and history behind him, represents a part of Westeros we've heard next to nothing about, he's honorable yet mischievous and his quest is one people can get behind. He ties into the existing plot of the books well and sets up for future conflicts with the Lannisters.

His duel with the Moutain is also set up wonderfully - this new guy gets a scene to cement his awesomeness and to show that he'll be dedicated to fucking with the Lannisters, it also serves to get Tyrion off the hook (what with him being the most loved character in the books), a thoroughly vile character gets his comeuppance (The Mountain pretty much has no redeeming qualities and is one of the most deplorable people in Westeros, which is saying a lot) and it's all tied up with a neat little bow. Also, since he was a newly introduced major character, we all assumed it would provide him with at least some amount of plot armor.

Then the Mountain murders the fuck out of him. And the outcome makes perfect sense.

Yes, Oberyn is a skilled fighter, but The Mountain is pretty much the top dog in that regard. And yet Oberyn was winning. He would have won, but he was too awesome for his own good. This is a man not used to things not turning out his way, a man used to being so good at everything that failure isn't really an option. And while he is generally right in that assumption, it also blinded him. Mixed with his burning desire for revenge, and not just revenge, but also a public admission of crimes, he dropped his guard. His own arrogance (deserved as it might have been) and his rage together clouded his senses at a critical moment, and that's all it takes when facing someone like Gregor Clegane.

The show handled it very well, too. They did a great job of building Oberyn up, both as a womanizer, a skilled fighter and a sly schemer. He was everyone's favorite character within a few episodes of his appearance. He was perfect in amost every regard. His setup was even better than in the books (at least in my opinion).

Then the fight came and it was also done just right. The fighting styles of the two champions was distinct, there was some back and forth, but eventually Oberyn's superior skill prevailed. And at the critical moment, he hesitated, blinded by his arrogance and thirst for vengeance.

And finally, his death was brutal. Personally, I found the fight of his shattered teeth dropping to the floor somehow even more disturbing than the whole eye gouging, skull squishing part. The Mountain was literally breaking him, as if Oberyin wasn't a person, but a piece of meat. And the point was made:

You don't get to win just because you are in the right.

You don't get a pretty death just because you're cool and everyone likes you.

Valar Morghuils

It's about winning because you're cool and everyone likes you. Nor is it about being different for the sake of being different. Yes any other show would have Onreyn win and there's a reason for that. In screen writing 101 when you build up to something it's good to leave with a pay off that leaves the audience satisfied and not cheated. Gregor Clegane was slow and clumsy while Obreyn was fast and graceful. Me moved around like a ninja proving that speed is better then strength. Without reading the books, it would've been immensely satisfying to see Obreyn kill Gregor. Other way around might be brutal and not falling into tropes, but that doesn't stop it from being a bitter disappointment. Now you know why other shows don't so that kind of stuff.

 

[Ipsen]

All, because the bad guys have had one too many victories. Joffrey's death was one victory for the good guys out of a dozen for the bad guys and each season thus far has ended with a very dark and mean spirited tone.

Spoiler

Ned Stark's death, Black Water, Red Wedding, and now Oberyn

I get where you're coming from.

To contribute an...oh so schlocky comparison, I'm reminded of my days watching WWE wrestling (circa Attitude/DX/HHH era). There were good guys, had the most awesome moves, raised the crowds but at the end of major events, HHH would still hold the title. Dynamics occurred, stories played out, and it was quite clear that a story was taking place, but there was still the sense of resolving at zero-sum, back to square one. That bored me enough as a kid to stop watching (or perhaps I just developed some taste).

GoT is miles ahead of WWE storylines, but I think it's falling to the same tune. I think some of us expect the arc of resolution to start appearing; We KNOW the bad guys are proven to be effective at holding their power at this point, we also know that stakes are raised by the apocalyptic forces of the White Walkers + Targaryen Mother and Dragons on the move, so things won't stay as they are, for the good or the bad in Westeros. With the rate the 'good guys'fan favorites are shedding the mortal coil, it's looking like the end will be the bad guysLannisters prevailing over the two, or Westeros gets rekt. Something new would have to be introduced or exposed to, well, keep the end we can see from coming.

But you know, the story is so damn good, I'd even see the Lannisters win it all.

 

[The Lunatic]

Yeah, I'm just gonna copy what I posten in another thread

I'm so freaking furious with that fight... I mean, I'm not against Oberyn dying, I'm against how he died. It just felt so completely forced. Are you seriously telling me that a warrior of Oberyn's skills and reflexes wouldn't just, you know, ROLL AWAY after getting swiped to the ground? Or that he wouldn't be able to simply block a direct hit to the face? Or are we just gonna dismiss that The Mountain was able to do all that after getting pierced, cut, and poisoned while wearing a HEAVY ARMOR! And not just that, that fucking caricature of a character even had a whitty remark to say as a final nail polish on the middle finger to the whole audience. It just felt forced. I don't think I was ever so disappointed with that show before. It just feels that everyone does deliberately stupid things just so that bad guys would win. Oh sure, give up to the army that has A FLAYED MAN as their flag, no way it's gonna backfire.

And also, when Mortal Kombat feels less violent that this, you know you're trying too hard.

Pretty much summed up my feelings towards it.

Just seemed really unbelievable.

I mean, yeah. It's hard to complain about realism in a show with dragons and frost giants, but, it just seemed a divergence from the usual sense of normality to almost comic-book levels.

 

[elvor0]

It's about winning because you're cool and everyone likes you. Nor is it about being different for the sake of being different. Yes any other show would have Onreyn win and there's a reason for that. In screen writing 101 when you build up to something it's good to leave with a pay off that leaves the audience satisfied and not cheated. Gregor Clegane was slow and clumsy while Obreyn was fast and graceful. Me moved around like a ninja proving that speed is better then strength. Without reading the books, it would've been immensely satisfying to see Obreyn kill Gregor. Other way around might be brutal and not falling into tropes, but that doesn't stop it from being a bitter disappointment. Now you know why other shows don't so that kind of stuff.

Surely you've just described exactly why GoT is so refreshing and intersting to watch? I haven't read the books either, but a major selling point is that it /doesn't/ go for Screen Writing 101. If we were going for Screenwriting 101, which in terms of narrative is the "big book of cliche", Ned Stark would still be alive and The Red Wedding never would've happened. GoT doesn't subscribe to the big book of cliche because it's cliche. Like you said, any other story would've had Oberyn win. Which yes, would be satisfying, but you'd know it was coming a mile off, the hero doesn't lose.

The motif that "anyone can die" has been present throughout every season, and introduces something that's seldom found in narrative these days: tension. Yeah the hero fighting the villian may be tense, but we know the heroes going to win, because it's a story. I still thought the fight between The Viper and The Mountain could go either way, because GoT /has/ tension. Nobody (except Tyrion) has plot armor, making every victory for the good guys seem even more deserved and happy. At the same time, it makes the Villians genuinely feel powerful and threatening. But people don't die out of magic plot devices out the wazoo, they die for perfectly plausable reasons, for Oberyn, it was putting his guard down, not stabbing mountain in the throat and standing right next to an 8 ft man trying to kill him that weighed 450 ibs and has a reputation for his freakish strength just to attempt to get a confession he was never going to get because his rage and lust for revenge blinded him to the danger of the situation because The Mountain doesn't give a fuck.

But for Screenwriting 101? All the set pieces were there; a heroic character come to eek out justice against a certainly evil foe, clearing the wrongly accused, in a classic "Hero vs Vilian" arena fight. And Oberyn did win, like many people have said, if he'd just finished it instead of trying to get him to confess, he'd still be alive. What made his death even more brutal, was that for once, it looked like everything was okay, The Mountain didn't win the fight during THE FIGHT, as far as Oberyn and the audience were concerned, Oberyn had won, and like Oberyn it seemed okay to release tension and drop your guard. Neither Oberyn or me or you thought The Mountain was anymore of a threat. Then The Mountain crushes his head. He wasn't focused, he wasn't /in/ fighting mode, then he was unexpectedly thrown on his back by a dead man, he'd be winded then borderline unoncious after that punch.

The Mountain isn't a villian, he's just an evil borderline fantastical brute that likes to kill things. Which he does, when the moment presents, all within 4 seconds. Oberyn had no chance of recovering from the moment Mountain grabbed him. Even if you /want/ to ignore the books, The Mountain is supposed to be 8ft tall and freakish strong. Obviously they had to cut it down to 7 for the series, because you go find me a man that looks like what the mountain is described as. But otherwise, the combat is realistic, and no amount of ninja moves are going to save you from a man that strong crushing your throat and gouging your eyes out.

If you're feeling biter dissapointment, then the writers have fully succeeded in entwining you with the characters. Because bitter dissapointment is just the tip of how Tyrion and Sand are feeling right now. If you felt relief and elation when The Viper floored The Mountain, you felt just like Tyrion. If you felt mounting horror as The Mountain grabbed Oberyn, you felt just like Sand, Oberyn and Tyrion did. If you feel exhausted...you get my drift. The point is, the barrier between character and you is gone, immersion is total.

"If you want justice, you've come to the wrong place"

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

I'm with the others here who ask "who are the good guys?"
there are plenty who fight with honour, but honour doenst mean good. first time we meet Ned he executes someone for running away from snow zombies. what a douche

 

[Silvanus]

The moment is quite a crushing one, yes. That said, most of the complaints aren't very well thought through.

It's not unrealistic. People get blinded by their own rage/ motivations every day, and Oberyn was a man confronting his sister's killer after years of nursing a wound. As Bronn said, one slip-up. It's not an unrealistic ending to the fight.

As for the bad guys always getting their way; we're not at the end of the story yet. We're not even close. Even the books haven't finished yet (there are at least two more yet to come out). Think of how many stories attempt to convince the audience that the protagonists are in a really tight spot, but never quite manage, because it's clear everything will turn out alright! A Song of Ice and Fire is one of the very few that truly manages to make the ending unpredictable.

Bitterness, resentment, etc, are all emotional responses, and very valid and necessary ones. If you feel this strongly, then you're invested in the story, and the story is doing its job.

I'm with the others here who ask "who are the good guys?"
there are plenty who fight with honour, but honour doenst mean good. first time we meet Ned he executes someone for running away from snow zombies. what a douche

In Ned's defence, he didn't know he was running away from snow zombies-- Others/ White Walkers haven't been seen for thousands of years. How would you react if somebody deserted the people he'd sworn to help, and when an explanation was demanded, began their explanation with dinosaurs?

As for who the good guys are... depends entirely on your perspective, which is greatly to the story's credit, in my view. A lot of people are Daenerys supporters, or you could root for Jon Snow or the other surviving Stark kids. I'm mostly in Stannis' camp (though not in Melisandre's).

 

[Malty Milk Whistle]

I honestly think there are no 'good' factions in ASoIaF, merely sympathetic characters.
Team #Davos4Lyfe



I'll see myself out...

 

[Creedsareevil]

There is so much wrongness in this thread...

First, i would like to remind everyone about the MAIN-EVENT that will shape westeros:
The upcoming war with the whitewalkers. ALL storys so far are side storys to THAT.


Ok, about your feelings about this recent death:

All the characters that we knew would die (knew it for for over 13 years) got good actors casted. The Casting decisions so far are amazing and it elevated many characters from "evil guy" to "aawww did he have to die..." status.

Tyrion lannister: I think it goes without saying that Peter dinklage has elevated tyrions charachter a lot in the eyes of the viewers.
We like the guy, he is a very good actor. And with that in mind we tend to overlook many of tyrions flaws, even find them charming.
He is prideful. He craves respect. He thinks he earned hit. We think he earned it. HE DID by defending Kings Landing. But his peers deny him again and again.

How did tyrion end up where he is now? I tell you:

After the blackwater he got that gut-punch from tywin telling him exactly in no uncertain terms how he feels about him. Heck, tywin gave all of his children a "the reason you suck speech". That has left tyrion emotionally stirred up, the whole sansa marriage thing ruining his relationship with shae also contributed greatly to him becoming pre occupied with, well, not being a competent schemer.
The old tyrion would have piked up on the plot to "off the joff". But not this emotionally beat up guy.
No, he is where he is now because his pride and his cravings for respect and recognition have made him vulnerable and i think this whole ordeal he is now going through can only serve to humble him and refocus his mind on important matters. I do not think that after all the buildup he got hes going to end with an execution.


As for the the bad guys winning more than the good guys:
eh. There are no good or bad guys.
Only the competent and the less competent.
Robb stark for example: He pissed of 2 of his core allies, the karstarks and the Freys. He could have delivered a shocking blow to tywin by killing jamie. He did nothing of the sort. He shat on his allies and more importantly proved that his word is not worth anything. It did cost him everything.

So far, Tywin has been excellent at both engineering pitfalls for others as well as working on the fly with whatever the situation gave him. Just look at the last few episodes:
"Joff is dead?!" Well good, now we can have a king that is more tractable.
He reinforces his ties with the tyrells, gets to force his golden son to take his place as proper heir and gets rid of tyrion.
Heck, he even hoped to be able to mend the rift between dorne and the Red keep...

Or look at stannis. Yes he got beaten but he is still there, also ate from the humble pie and his most loyal ally is rising up to occasion and is on the way to be a tremendously good hand.


In th end, westeros has to hope that a competent man sits on the throne when the walkers come knocking....