Allegedly there is going to be a time skip. Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons are just there to lay the ground work for said time skip, which makes a lot of sense. You can't have all these major things happen in such a short period of time and still maintain realism. Can't remember where I heard it but it was from a bigger fan than me I'm sure of that.
GRRM originally planned for a "5 year gap" between the end of ASOS and the next volume. When beginning book 4, he found he was over-relying on flashbacks, and thought it made the narrative confusing and clumsy. So he decided to "fill in the gap", as it were, with actual books. Which is why AFFC and ADWD are predominantly concerned with a lot of traveling around and/or sitting in place. He's moving pieces and explaining the interlude.
He refers to the logistical nightmare he created for himself as "The Meereenese Knot". It's a major reason why the last two books took forever and a day to write.
Most gruesome death? Possibly. Most shocking? Not by a long shot.
I can't really see this as much more than Game of Thrones once again proving how valuable good writing and acting are. In a word where you have to know by this point that no character is safe, you still find yourself rooting for and becoming attached to them. I knew what was going to happen as I had read the books (and, as said by others, Oberyn wasn't really that defined in the books) but if I hadn't I would imagine that I'd probably feel similarly.
I thought it was appropriate that Oberyn's grandstanding, death-or-glory bullshit finally caught up with him. There's a reason the Lannisters hire the Mountain to do their dirty work instead of the fanciest bisexual prince in the kingdom.
Drinking was a bad choice, the spear was a poor choice, and you just knew Oberyn would think he was invincible. I'd actually have been pissed off if the prince won that fight.
Allegedly there is going to be a time skip. Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons are just there to lay the ground work for said time skip, which makes a lot of sense. You can't have all these major things happen in such a short period of time and still maintain realism. Can't remember where I heard it but it was from a bigger fan than me I'm sure of that.
GRRM originally planned for a "5 year gap" between the end of ASOS and the next volume. When beginning book 4, he found he was over-relying on flashbacks, and thought it made the narrative confusing and clumsy. So he decided to "fill in the gap", as it were, with actual books. Which is why AFFC and ADWD are predominantly concerned with a lot of traveling around and/or sitting in place. He's moving pieces and explaining the interlude.
He refers to the logistical nightmare he created for himself as "The Meereenese Knot". It's a major reason why the last two books took forever and a day to write.
Once you stop expecting something to happen in them AFFC and ADWD are more enjoyable. Hell AFFC is probably my favorite behind ASOS for all the political intrigue and character development.
On topic, my only complain for the fight was that Oberyn's showboating undercuts the emotion of the scene. Even then, it was onoy in the beginning of the fight. The rest was fine.
Having read the books, I have to tell you not to worry too much.
Yes, Oberyn's death was sad, shocking, and tragic but his death was necessary for several story reasons and is setting into motion a much larger plot. It wasn't just a pointless or random death.Without spoiling too much, Oberyn was sent to King's Landing from Dorne instead of his brother Doran, who was too sick to travel (he has gout and can't walk). He was supposed to take a seat in the small council, and they have Cersei's daughter Myrcella in Dorne and she is betrothed to Doran's second son Trystane Martell.
Needless to say, Dorne is NOT going to be happy about Oberyn's death. Oberyn had 8 bastard daughters with various women (4 by Ellaria) called the Sand Snakes who all follow after their father in different ways. They range in age between 8-25 and at the very least the eldest 4 are very deadly and dangerous. They won't be happy to find out that their father was killed. According to casting leaks, Dorne is going to play a much larger role in the coming plot. Casting calls have been put out for the following prominent Dornish people:
Doran Martell
Trystane Martell
Tyene Sand
Obara Sand
Nymeria Sand
Areo Hotah (Doran's badass bodyguard)
Unmentioned but definite casting roles will also be needed for Arianne Martell and Quentyn Martell, Doran's daughter and eldest son.
Dorne isn't going to take Oberyn's death lightly and we will see a large infusion of badass Dornish characters in the near future.
Also as for your immediate concerns about the mountain
Oberyn Martell poisoned his spear with a slow acting and extremely painful poison that is nearly uncurable. Gregor Clegane is in for a world of pain even though he survived the duel
And don't worry. There's still several shocking moments, both good and bad left to come in the series. Although I think the Red Wedding and Oberyn's death were the biggest gut punches of the series so far. There's still lots to come and to look forward to! It's not all bad either! (just most of it )
I thought it was appropriate that Oberyn's grandstanding, death-or-glory bullshit finally caught up with him. There's a reason the Lannisters hire the Mountain to do their dirty work instead of the fanciest bisexual prince in the kingdom.
Drinking was a bad choice, the spear was a poor choice, and you just knew Oberyn would think he was invincible. I'd actually have been pissed off if the prince won that fight.
While I agree with the bulk of what you said, I will say I disagree with one part of it. The spear was a great choice. The Mountain is a huge man, who uses a greatsword and has a huge reach. Oberyn is a smaller quicker man but one misstep and that greatsword cuts him in half if he's in the reach of it.
Solution: a fast weapon that has superior reach than even the greatsword. It was a good choice of weapon and obvious Oberyn's best weapon so in that he was correct.
Grandstanding and demanding a confession was what got him killed. Not his choice in weapon which was exactly what gave him enough advantage to mortally wound the Mountain and get his revenge even in death.
I thought it was appropriate that Oberyn's grandstanding, death-or-glory bullshit finally caught up with him. There's a reason the Lannisters hire the Mountain to do their dirty work instead of the fanciest bisexual prince in the kingdom.
Drinking was a bad choice, the spear was a poor choice, and you just knew Oberyn would think he was invincible. I'd actually have been pissed off if the prince won that fight.
While I agree with the bulk of what you said, I will say I disagree with one part of it. The spear was a great choice. The Mountain is a huge man, who uses a greatsword and has a huge reach. Oberyn is a smaller quicker man but one misstep and that greatsword cuts him in half if he's in the reach of it.
Solution: a fast weapon that has superior reach than even the greatsword. It was a good choice of weapon and obvious Oberyn's best weapon so in that he was correct.
Grandstanding and demanding a confession was what got him killed. Not his choice in weapon which was exactly what gave him enough advantage to mortally wound the Mountain and get his revenge even in death.
In theory I agree with you on the spear's reach. Unfortunately, (I actually expected this to be the decisive action) it's largely made of wood and got cut in half, which meant that Oberyn was disarmed about halfway through the fight. Fortunately for him he got tossed another spear, but I wouldn't have depended on that if I were him.
I just rewatched that scene. There was a considerable period of time between the fall and the grab.
"Correct ukemi will allow the uke to suffer the least amount of damage possible from a fall. If done correctly, the force of hitting the ground will be spread out along non-critical parts of the uke's body. By properly doing ukemi, the uke can roll out of danger and move into their next course of action without being damaged too much by hitting the ground." Pretty sure that's exactly what I meant.
And putting your palm in front of the the armored fist will do VERY MUCH shit, since now the part that hits your face is not covered in armor.
In the scene in the show, Oberyn seemed to have already accepted his victory and the fall would have likely caught him completely off-guard. Maybe I'm inferring that from the books but that's how I see it anyway. I loved how they set it up with Oberyn's yelling and Jaime's smirking only to have victory ripped away at the last minute, leaving everyone in shock and wondering what's going to happen next.
I loved Oberyn in the show as much as anyone but I thought his death was a great way to get people to really fear for their favoured characters and take away Tyrion's "trial by combat" get out of jail free card.
To be honest, I would have seen it as more of an arse-pull if Oberyn had fallen and immediately recovered because "ukemi" or if he was pinned by the Mountain and was able to block the punches of an armour clad man-bear. It makes the story much more interesting than Oberyn winning due to his impenetrable plot armour.
As I said, I have absolutely no problem with Oberyn's death. None. Pragmatism beats honor? Completely agree. My main problem is with execution. To me it seemed like they established Oberyn as a fighting genius who then forgot the most basic stuff simply because he had to die. And I already explained why it seemed like he forgot the most basic stuff.
Here's how it went down in the books if you'd like to compare:
ASOS said:
?If you die before you say her name, ser, I will hunt you through all seven hells,? he promised. Ser Gregor tried to rise. The broken spear had gone through him, and was pinning him to the ground. He wrapped both hands about the shaft, grunting, but could not pull it out. Beneath him was a spreading pool of red. ?I am feeling more innocent by the instant,? Tyrion told Ellaria Sand beside him. Prince Oberyn moved closer. ?Say the name!? He put a foot on the Mountain?s chest and raised the greatsword with both hands. Whether he intended to hack off Gregor?s head or shove the point through his eyeslit was something Tyrion would never know. Clegane?s hand shot up and grabbed the Dornishman behind the knee. The Red Viper brought down the greatsword in a wild slash, but he was off-balance, and the edge did no more than put another dent in the Mountain?s vambrace. Then the sword was forgotten as Gregor?s hand tightened and twisted, yanking the Dornishman down on top of him. They wrestled in the dust and blood, the broken spear wobbling back and forth. Tyrion saw with horror that the Mountain had wrapped one huge arm around the prince, drawing him tight against his chest, like a lover. ?Elia of Dorne,? they all heard Ser Gregor say, when they were close enough to kiss. His deep voice boomed within the helm. ?I killed her screaming whelp.? He thrust his free hand into Oberyn?s unprotected face, pushing steel fingers into his eyes. ?Then I raped her.? Clegane slammed his fist into the Dornishman?s mouth, making splinters of his teeth. ?Then I smashed her fucking head in. Like this.? As he drew back his huge fist, the blood on his gauntlet seemed to smoke in the cold dawn air. There was a sickening crunch.
Keep in mind that the actor who played Gregor was 6'9" and 450lbs, but the mountain in the books was over 8ft tall and could wield a two handed sword with one hand and a shield in the other. Oberyn's death was not cheap. He got cocky against a monster of a man and it cost him his life.
There is no "they" OP. The show followed Martin's book, so if you wonna blame anyone, you know who to look at.
I think you're way too much into the mindset of "good guys" versus "bad guys" too. GoT and the books are based around the whole idea that the winners write history and the losers disappear from it, that people who just naievely and blindly follow a number of ideals end up dead and rotting in the ground when the time to face reality comes.
Also, Oberyn HAD to die. Unless you want to take a pen and pretty much draw a big fat line across half the storyline from now on, because everything is interconnected.
What you're asking for is that Martin and the show sacrifices a whole lot of plot twists to basically go with a big fat cliche: "Lets have a trial by combat and everything will be alright as always GG."
Doing something like that would cheapen the show and the story massively and start putting it firmly in the camp of inferior fantasy material, so simply NO.
If it's any relief, you'll see that Oberyn does leave his marks. Both on the plot and on The Mountain.
Not spoilering this because look at the thread you're in: That death left me shocked for about 10 minutes, but it was somewhat fair, Oberyn got cocky when he could have just ended it. But that aside, there are still good guys to go for. Tyrion, who I can't see actually being executed (maybe I'm in denial), Sansa, who hasn't done much yet but I hope will become a schemer similar to Littlefinger, Arya, who is set to become an incredible assassin and kill all the people we don't like (although the Hound's wound has now been mentioned in an episode that otherwise had nothing to do with it, leading me to believe he's on his way out), Bran, basically whatever Stark kids are left. Actually when I put it like that that's pretty depressing.
Anyway, yes, I'd like to have been more of the Red Viper but his death was deserved. And I appreciate that the show isn't too precious with its characters.
I was also thinking Oberyn was going to win. Previous episode made a big deal with his speech to Tyrion and it seemed like "ok, this is some stuff that's gonna be happening".
Then he started prancing around like an idiot. His death was telegraphed from a mile away at that point.
I agree that killing him at this point feels a little premature, but it delivered a strong punch to the gut (even with how obvious it was) and I'm guessing that was the point. If the show has somewhere else to go (and I'm guessing it does, seeing as the books aren't heralded as crap from that point on), Oberyn is not that necessary.
It's a shame we won't see much of him anymore as he was a somewhat interesting character, but it could spawn a lot more interesting things than what he himself could've done. After all, even if his direct taunts to the entire fucking King's Landing, in the middle of an arena were ignored, he couldn't take on the whole lot right there where they rule. He's not an assassin, he's a swordsman and for someone who relies on his agility as a fighter, he's stupid enough to stand within arms reach of a man of Mountain's size.
I remember reading this chapter and being somewhat surprised at first, until I read it back and really, realy thought about it.
Oberyn goes into the fight uninterested in championing Tyrion. It's a Tyrion chapter, but it's all just a stage for Oberyn trying to sow dissent and get the justice he knew he'd be denied. He's smart, he knows that Tywin won't just deliver a war machine like Gregor Clegane into his hands. As a result Oberyn isn't 100% invested in the fight, he's invested in making Gregor squirm and give up Tywin for Elia's rape and murder. There is a minor change in the tv show, which I thought was interesting: he seemed surprised to lose.
First and foremost please bare in mind that I have not read the books so please no spoils past this episode. Also if you have seen episode 8 yet this thread will be full of spoilers for this episode.
So prince Oberyn Martell dies in what is quite possibly the most gruesome and shocking death in GoT which is really saying something considering the show's reputation.
I must admit though that this left a particularly bitter and mean spirited after taste. For the first time I find myself unhappy with the writers discussion and the direction the story is going.
I'd like to know if anyone else felt the same way.
I'd like to explain why I feel this way and ask if anyone else feels the same way.
Oberyn was my favorite character in the show. Even more so then Tyrion Lannister. Form the start I liked him. He felt like the new hero the show desperately needed. I didn't expect him to last I knew he was too good to last, but I was expecting and hopping that he'd kill Gregor Clegane and maybe take out a few Lannisters before leaving or biting the dust.
As good as the writing in the shows are I felt that this time they over did it.
No, you'll see as the show goes on that Prince Oberyn's death was necessary to move the plot forward (i.e. Tyrion found guilty) and put Dorne's political powers into motion. I understand how you feel about the grimness, but keep in mind that this is only halfway through the books. All of the losses the good guys face only serve to make their victories sweeter. Keep watching, it's worth it.
I understand that this is Game of Thrones and tragedy is bound to happen and no one is safe. But for the me the real tragedy is that my investment in the other characters has basically been reduced to nothing. I'm still going to watch the show and I'm still interested in what happens next, but I no longer care too much if the character pull through or not. I learned long ago that no one in GoT was safe but the new lesson from this episode is that not only is no one safe any of the characters can be killed in the most mean spirited way when things appear at their brightest.
As a result I don't think GoT will be able to shock me again. I feel that it's blown it's load and at this point and I will no longer be moved by any further revelations or main character deaths.
All, because the bad guys have had one too many victories. Joffrey's death was one victory for the good guys out of a dozen for the bad guys and each season thus far has ended with a very dark and mean spirited tone.
Ned Stark's death, Black Water, Red Wedding, and now Oberyn
You know how if you make the good guys over powered you stop caring; well I'm worried GoT is doing the same with the bad guys. It gets to a point where I've just lost hope for the good guys and whatever quasi hope they get will soon be shattered by tragedy around the corner.
So what do yous guys think. Was the timing of Oberyn Martell's death a disservice to the story? and how did it make you feel. How do you feel about the show's future?
I think it's definitely worth mentioning here that Oberyn was a new character this season so if you can get so attached to a character this quickly then what is stopping you getting just as attached to new characters introduced in season 5 (there are going to be quite a few)
Agreed. I'd say the only definite good guy is Jon Snow, and that's only because trying to prevent a full on barbarian invasion and snow zombie apocalypse are fairly infallible motives. Anyone in his situation, with his exposure and comparative foreknowledge would probably do the same thing, though. Even Tywin.
Not even Jon Snow is a bona fide hero. At least not in the books. and not in most of season 1. He thinks himself above his peers even as he grows to respect them. Alliser Thorne is a huge asshole, but he does have a bit of a point in resenting Snow's arrogance. That is being pushed to the background but is an important part of his character (and one I hope the writers won't forget).
Fair point, but arrogance doesn't really come into grey morality, IMO. And if he didn't have an arc, he'd be a bit shit as a character.
All I'm saying is that his is the only motivation that's strictly heroic. Being arrogant about his lackluster peers doesn't mean he's not a decent guy, and even if it did, he's past that now. That, and he's the only living follower of Ned Stark's honor mentality. XD
I have read the books, so I do know he gets stabbed the fuck up at the end of 'Dragons, but that's clearly open ended.
Alot of people seem to have a problem with Oberyn getting swept off his feet and falling prey to the mountain.
If you recall, in the episode Oberyn states clearly, "a man's size doesn't matter when he's flat on his back." and Tyrion agrees with him.
They set up that Oberyn totally believed he had a complete victory, that now that The Mountain was flat on his back, he needn't fear him any longer. Oberyn getting within foot swiping distance does make sense in that context, he didn't think The Mountain was a threat any longer, let alone enough of a threat to tear him off his feet with a powerful swipe, pick him up by the face and then crush his skull. Oberyn himself announced the mindset that would lead to his death, and to me, it not only made sense visually in the choreography, but also thematically.
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