Trans representation in gaming

[CriticalGaming]

In my opinion, the biggest flaw of the way video games write LGBT characters is not that everything about them is related to their gender and sexuality, but that almost nothing is. In real life, queer people are often incredibly defined by the fact that they are queer, to the point that it touches on every part of their lives. You don't add sexuality or gender to a human being and stir, these things make us who we are. Video games are often so determined to show that queer characters are "just like you and me" that they often seem afraid to make a character's queerness actually matter.

If the character's LBGTQ-ness is the most interesting thing about them, then they aren't a good character and don't deserve to be in the story. It's something I spoke about with a co-worker I once had many years ago. I worked with him for two years before he said he was gay and he only said it because girls at the job were hitting on him. Then one accused him of sexual harassment to which he said that was impossible because he was a gay man.

HE told me that the reason he didn't outright say it, was because his sexual preference doesn't define who he is and the people he chooses to sleep with are nobody's business. He said the he didn't agree with the overtness of some people who seem to have to scream their queerness from the rooftops, because if they were doing that then they probably had no other personality or redeeming qualities other than being gay.

Which I agree with his point to this day on.

If you are part of a pride parade, or in a group trying to get gay rights (like marriage or anti-discrimination rules) then being openly gay certainly has merits to present with those arguments.

But when people use their LBGTQ-ness as the only thing that defines who they are, it just means they have nothing else going for them. Why does being male or female or any combination inbetween, or being hetero, bi, homo-sexual, have anything to do with anybody else but yourself and the people that love you? Cis people don't walk around going, "Oh dude, I am so STRAIGHT today it is incredible. I watched some porn, then some football, dude the best day ever." No, of course we don't because it doesn't matter in 99.9% of day to day interactions.

So if it doesn't matter 99.9% of the time, why does it matter in a video game with no sexual or romantic context? What difference would a gay character in Call of Duty make? Shoot the bad guys, blow shit up, that's the only thing that matters. Hell they aren't even doing story modes anymore. How about Tracer in Overwatch, if it weren't for some random comic that many players probably missed, how does her being gay mean anything? It doesn't change any of the characterization she has in game. Poison in Street Fighter is easily missed as a trans character, does it affect her in the game in anyway?

See the only way to make trans and other LBGQ characters in games matter is if you make the SEXUALITY important in the game's context or story. But frankly there is no situation in which sexuality or gender matters outside of games in which romantic options are present. That's why I think the gay options in Bioware games are great because if the player wants to be trans or gay then they have that choice to make the narative include them.

Otherwise I just don't think it matters as much as people want it to.

 

[Satinavian]

In my opinion, the biggest flaw of the way video games write LGBT characters is not that everything about them is related to their gender and sexuality, but that almost nothing is. In real life, queer people are often incredibly defined by the fact that they are queer, to the point that it touches on every part of their lives. You don't add sexuality or gender to a human being and stir, these things make us who we are. Video games are often so determined to show that queer characters are "just like you and me" that they often seem afraid to make a character's queerness actually matter.

If that was true that would mean including a LGBT character would mean giving their gender and sexuality spotlight, which means changing what the game is about. It would be a reason not to include LGBT characters.

Thankfully developers think different and have no problem including LGBT characters with their gender/sexuality being mentioned exactly once and with no further consequence.

If it is not a dating sim or some kind of porn game, gender/sexuality plays at best a very minor role in most games. So minor that RPGs with romance options are considered having a lot of sexual content. That is also true for hetero/cis stuff.

 

[Saelune]

In my opinion, the biggest flaw of the way video games write LGBT characters is not that everything about them is related to their gender and sexuality, but that almost nothing is. In real life, queer people are often incredibly defined by the fact that they are queer, to the point that it touches on every part of their lives. You don't add sexuality or gender to a human being and stir, these things make us who we are. Video games are often so determined to show that queer characters are "just like you and me" that they often seem afraid to make a character's queerness actually matter.

If that was true that would mean including a LGBT character would mean giving their gender and sexuality spotlight, which means changing what the game is about. It would be a reason not to include LGBT characters.

Thankfully developers think different and have no problem including LGBT characters with their gender/sexuality being mentioned exactly once and with no further consequence.

If it is not a dating sim or some kind of porn game, gender/sexuality plays at best a very minor role in most games. So minor that RPGs with romance options are considered having a lot of sexual content. That is also true for hetero/cis stuff.

Every straight romance is flaunting heterosexuality, and more stories than not have straight romances, often without needing them at all.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Every straight romance is flaunting heterosexuality, and more stories than not have straight romances, often without needing them at all.

That isn't true. Romance itself is not flaunting any sexuality. The purpose in a story is generally to show the audience the development of a bond between two characters. It's stereotypical of hollywood story telling, but that doesn't make it "flaunting" hetero-sexuality. You are projecting that opinion upon the material, not reflecting the intent of that material. Which makes it a personal issue to you. Opinion, not fact.

 

[Vendor-Lazarus]

Every straight romance is flaunting heterosexuality, and more stories than not have straight romances, often without needing them at all.

That isn't true. Romance itself is not flaunting any sexuality. The purpose in a story is generally to show the audience the development of a bond between two characters. It's stereotypical of hollywood story telling, but that doesn't make it "flaunting" hetero-sexuality. You are projecting that opinion upon the material, not reflecting the intent of that material. Which makes it a personal issue to you. Opinion, not fact.

Not to mention that heterosexuality is the norm.
Just having it in a game is not flaunting it, unless is ends up becoming the entire thing the game is revolving around, explicitly.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Every straight romance is flaunting heterosexuality, and more stories than not have straight romances, often without needing them at all.

That isn't true. Romance itself is not flaunting any sexuality. The purpose in a story is generally to show the audience the development of a bond between two characters. It's stereotypical of hollywood story telling, but that doesn't make it "flaunting" hetero-sexuality. You are projecting that opinion upon the material, not reflecting the intent of that material. Which makes it a personal issue to you. Opinion, not fact.

Not to mention that heterosexuality is the norm.
Just having it in a game is not flaunting it, unless is ends up becoming the entire thing the game is revolving around, explicitly.

Which would be the case in something like HoneyPop, or dating Sims. And having more LBGTQ based dating sims and visual novels would be awesome, and I sincerely hope the community gets more games like that if they want them.

But in games were dating/sex aren't the focus, then sexuality is rather low on the list of importance for a character. The new Lara Croft could be gay, but because the context of the games have never had nor needed a situation to clarify this, then it's an unknown that has no baring on the game nor her quality as a game character.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Okay, so this gives me a better idea of what you mean by the Plinkett Test (which isn't really the same thing they were doing in the Star Wars review). The problem is, you can do what you just did with almost any character.

Strictly speaking, everything but the first sentence in either of our examples is extraneous to the Plinkett test and actually outside its parameters. The only reason I went further in the case of my example, was because you singled out a trait in Alex Murphy/Robocop's character most would immediately point to and even argue is necessary for the film, because it's so visually striking and prominent in the film (look at the title of the movie for God's sake). But, a deep dive reveals the opposite -- the only purpose of that trait is to obfuscate the Christ allegory until the film's climax, and it's completely divorced from his characterization.

It would be like, in your case, specifically citing Jar-Jar being an alien. In your entire paragraph you mentioned alien once, and in that case you mentioned it as an abstraction -- you could have used any other descriptive noun or pronoun in its place. You could have said "Jar-Jar is a bumbling, foolish person with a desire to be helpful..." without sacrificing anything. The only relevance Jar-Jar being an alien has, is that Gungans are aliens. He could have been a human, a droid, a sentient fart, anything really, and it wouldn't have impacted his characterization.

The funny thing is, Jar-Jar's actually the strongest character in TPM. He has clear, easily defined, and unmistakable character traits. He has a definitive character arc with a beginning, middle, and end. He has a clearly-defined role in the movie, and his presence facilitates the move from one plot point to another. That's why he's the most memorable character in the entire movie, that's why he's the most divisive character in the entire movie, and honestly, you may not realize it, but that's why you picked him.

That's the point of the Plinkett test. It's not about whether the character is "good" or "bad" in the commonly-understood sense of being relatable, visually-striking, likable or dislikable, it's about how substantial the characterization is in the first place. It's the Jack Sparrow "but you have heard of me" effect.

 

[Saelune]

Every straight romance is flaunting heterosexuality, and more stories than not have straight romances, often without needing them at all.

That isn't true. Romance itself is not flaunting any sexuality. The purpose in a story is generally to show the audience the development of a bond between two characters. It's stereotypical of hollywood story telling, but that doesn't make it "flaunting" hetero-sexuality. You are projecting that opinion upon the material, not reflecting the intent of that material. Which makes it a personal issue to you. Opinion, not fact.

Why is it 'in your face' when LGBT people do it, but not when straight people do it?

 

[Saelune]

Every straight romance is flaunting heterosexuality, and more stories than not have straight romances, often without needing them at all.

That isn't true. Romance itself is not flaunting any sexuality. The purpose in a story is generally to show the audience the development of a bond between two characters. It's stereotypical of hollywood story telling, but that doesn't make it "flaunting" hetero-sexuality. You are projecting that opinion upon the material, not reflecting the intent of that material. Which makes it a personal issue to you. Opinion, not fact.

Not to mention that heterosexuality is the norm.
Just having it in a game is not flaunting it, unless is ends up becoming the entire thing the game is revolving around, explicitly.

'Just having it in the game is not flaunting it'? People freaking out over every LGBT character ever disagree.

 

[Erttheking]

Every straight romance is flaunting heterosexuality, and more stories than not have straight romances, often without needing them at all.

That isn't true. Romance itself is not flaunting any sexuality. The purpose in a story is generally to show the audience the development of a bond between two characters. It's stereotypical of hollywood story telling, but that doesn't make it "flaunting" hetero-sexuality. You are projecting that opinion upon the material, not reflecting the intent of that material. Which makes it a personal issue to you. Opinion, not fact.

Not to mention that heterosexuality is the norm.
Just having it in a game is not flaunting it, unless is ends up becoming the entire thing the game is revolving around, explicitly.

'Just having it in the game is not flaunting it'? People freaking out over every LGBT character ever disagree.

Because het people are used to being pandered to so they think being pandered to is the norm, and anyway break away from that is the REAL pandering, but it's not pandering when it happens to them because they just think it's normal then.

 

[Saelune]

Every straight romance is flaunting heterosexuality, and more stories than not have straight romances, often without needing them at all.

That isn't true. Romance itself is not flaunting any sexuality. The purpose in a story is generally to show the audience the development of a bond between two characters. It's stereotypical of hollywood story telling, but that doesn't make it "flaunting" hetero-sexuality. You are projecting that opinion upon the material, not reflecting the intent of that material. Which makes it a personal issue to you. Opinion, not fact.

Not to mention that heterosexuality is the norm.
Just having it in a game is not flaunting it, unless is ends up becoming the entire thing the game is revolving around, explicitly.

'Just having it in the game is not flaunting it'? People freaking out over every LGBT character ever disagree.

Because het people are used to being pandered to so they think being pandered to is the norm, and anyway break away from that is the REAL pandering, but it's not pandering when it happens to them because they just think it's normal then.

'When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression'

 

[CriticalGaming]

Why is it 'in your face' when LGBT people do it, but not when straight people do it? 'Just having it in the game is not flaunting it'? People freaking out over every LGBT character ever disagree.

Who's freaking out over every LBGT character? Actually it looks to me, like more people from the LBGT community actually "freak out" over a given character then "cis" people do about the character being there. The outrage seems to come more from people within the LBGTQ actually disagreeing with how a given LBGTQ character is handled in game, certainly more than I've ever seen anyone else upset that there are there in the first place.

So I would argue that it's the LBGTQ community that has more of a problem with their inclusion than anyone else.

Let's be clear here, I am not, nor have I seen anyone, calling LBGTQ romance in any form of media "in your face". You brought up that straight people doing it as a flaunting of heterosexuality and I merely disagreed with that opinion as projecting.

I don't have any problem, nor would I have a problem with it. I didn't have a problem with it in the movie Bruno, and I don't have problems with it in any other forms of media including video games.

If you have any sources of articles that advocate for anti-LBGTQ inclusion in gaming, I'd love to know so I can disagree with those articles as well.

 

[Saelune]

Why is it 'in your face' when LGBT people do it, but not when straight people do it? 'Just having it in the game is not flaunting it'? People freaking out over every LGBT character ever disagree.

Who's freaking out over every LBGT character? Actually it looks to me, like more people from the LBGT community actually "freak out" over a given character then "cis" people do about the character being there. The outrage seems to come more from people within the LBGTQ actually disagreeing with how a given LBGTQ character is handled in game, certainly more than I've ever seen anyone else upset that there are there in the first place.

So I would argue that it's the LBGTQ community that has more of a problem with their inclusion than anyone else.

Does it though? I see more people complaining about the 'SJW propaganda' than anything. Maybe you just arent looking?

 

[Wakey87]

The idea that "having fun" with trans inclusion means revisiting a long-dead debate over whether trans people exist is so out of touch with reality that I've already dignified it too much by even mentioning it.

Thats not what I ment at all, but just shows how no one will touch this subject incase of misinterpretation.
Because aparently there are people that don't know trans people exist and I'm now one of them...

 

[Saelune]

Why is it 'in your face' when LGBT people do it, but not when straight people do it? 'Just having it in the game is not flaunting it'? People freaking out over every LGBT character ever disagree.

Who's freaking out over every LBGT character? Actually it looks to me, like more people from the LBGT community actually "freak out" over a given character then "cis" people do about the character being there. The outrage seems to come more from people within the LBGTQ actually disagreeing with how a given LBGTQ character is handled in game, certainly more than I've ever seen anyone else upset that there are there in the first place.

So I would argue that it's the LBGTQ community that has more of a problem with their inclusion than anyone else.

Let's be clear here, I am not, nor have I seen anyone, calling LBGTQ romance in any form of media "in your face". You brought up that straight people doing it as a flaunting of heterosexuality and I merely disagreed with that opinion as projecting.

I don't have any problem, nor would I have a problem with it. I didn't have a problem with it in the movie Bruno, and I don't have problems with it in any other forms of media including video games.

If you have any sources of articles that advocate for anti-LBGTQ inclusion in gaming, I'd love to know so I can disagree with those articles as well.

Ugh, you added stuff while I was typing.

It is easy to say it does not bother you, it is another thing to mean it. I bring up the straight people comment cause it IS flaunting it, the thing is, I dont think that is an afront to me, except when other people say it is an afront to them to see LGBT people be represented too. I dont see the male and female lead kiss and go 'Ugh, get this heteronormative propaganda out of my movie/game/book/TV show/commercial'. I do feel good when I see some actual LGBT representation though. It feels nice. Why is that so wrong?

 

[Wakey87]

Drawing within the lines rarely breeds creativity. Creativity is boldness. If people make sincere attempts, they will probably be fine. If they end up offending people, maybe they deserve to be punished instead of putting on a fa?ade of decency?

I live in a world where a comedy sketch with a pug gets you a criminal conviction, intent means nothing these days.

 

[Saelune]

Drawing within the lines rarely breeds creativity. Creativity is boldness. If people make sincere attempts, they will probably be fine. If they end up offending people, maybe they deserve to be punished instead of putting on a fa?ade of decency?

I live in a world where a comedy sketch with a pug gets you a criminal conviction, intent means nothing these days.

Elaborate.

 

[Wakey87]

The idea that chromosomes decide gender is even more absurd

Yep, I'm done here. This is more virtue signaling than actual scientific evidence.
People are free to beleive what they want, if you beleive your a women/man I'm not going tell you your wrong, infact I'll stand with you with that fact. But legaly changing an official document to falsify your genetics is where I draw the line.

But maybe I'm wrong and you are much more progessive than me, and hell I don't know in a few years instead of laughing at people like 'Woah Vicky' we will actualy reconise that maybe this white girl really is black and doesn't just feel like one.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Ugh, you added stuff while I was typing.

It is easy to say it does not bother you, it is another thing to mean it. I bring up the straight people comment cause it IS flaunting it, the thing is, I dont think that is an afront to me, except when other people say it is an afront to them to see LGBT people be represented too. I dont see the male and female lead kiss and go 'Ugh, get this heteronormative propaganda out of my movie/game/book/TV show/commercial'. I do feel good when I see some actual LGBT representation though. It feels nice. Why is that so wrong?

Sorry about that, I hit post before I was ready and had to edit.

Anyway, yes I can only speak for myself that's true. Just like you can only speak for yourself. But to say what characters who kiss on screen is some kind of normal vs. not-normal(alt? I dunno a term to use for this) is some kind of propaganda is simply untrue. It's not propaganda of any kind. It's just storytelling in a fashion to relate to the widest audience possible.

You sort of condescendingly call it "normal" but really it is just the majority. As a result you are doing to get more hetero relationships in main stream storytelling because it simply is the majority of romantic relationships.

I think the biggest thing that bothers me, is the LBGTQ community likes to try and do two things. They try to demonize Hetero-sexuality like it is some oppressive force kicking anything non-hetero out of it's way like a mighty boot. And they try to making themselves seem like a bigger community than they are. Looking at the 2016 census poll (which might not be everyone) 4.7% of the U.S. population identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States).

When less than 10% of your population being LGBTQ (sorry I had the letters in the wrong order apparently) then I'm sorry but Hetero-sexuallity is basically the "norm". So your media, books, games, movies, advertisements, are going to be dominated by what is "normal" because the LGBTQ audience is just not that big. Especially when you factor in that not all of that 4.7% popluation is going to play a video game, or see a given movie.

Look represenation is great, and so long as characters are well written and are a naturally inserted part of the story. I'm all for having more diverse casts of characters. Can we at least agree that maybe expectations of included LGBTQ characters are a bit high considering?

 

[Saelune]

Ugh, you added stuff while I was typing.

It is easy to say it does not bother you, it is another thing to mean it. I bring up the straight people comment cause it IS flaunting it, the thing is, I dont think that is an afront to me, except when other people say it is an afront to them to see LGBT people be represented too. I dont see the male and female lead kiss and go 'Ugh, get this heteronormative propaganda out of my movie/game/book/TV show/commercial'. I do feel good when I see some actual LGBT representation though. It feels nice. Why is that so wrong?

Sorry about that, I hit post before I was ready and had to edit.

Anyway, yes I can only speak for myself that's true. Just like you can only speak for yourself. But to say what characters who kiss on screen is some kind of normal vs. not-normal(alt? I dunno a term to use for this) is some kind of propaganda is simply untrue. It's not propaganda of any kind. It's just storytelling in a fashion to relate to the widest audience possible.

You sort of condescendingly call it "normal" but really it is just the majority. As a result you are doing to get more hetero relationships in main stream storytelling because it simply is the majority of romantic relationships.

I think the biggest thing that bothers me, is the LBGTQ community likes to try and do two things. They try to demonize Hetero-sexuality like it is some oppressive force kicking anything non-hetero out of it's way like a mighty boot. And they try to making themselves seem like a bigger community than they are. Looking at the 2016 census poll (which might not be everyone) 4.7% of the U.S. population identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States).

When less than 10% of your population being LGBTQ (sorry I had the letters in the wrong order apparently) then I'm sorry but Hetero-sexuallity is basically the "norm". So your media, books, games, movies, advertisements, are going to be dominated by what is "normal" because the LGBTQ audience is just not that big. Especially when you factor in that not all of that 4.7% popluation is going to play a video game, or see a given movie.

Look represenation is great, and so long as characters are well written and are a naturally inserted part of the story. I'm all for having more diverse casts of characters. Can we at least agree that maybe expectations of included LGBTQ characters are a bit high considering?

Its called 'heteronormative', the normalization of heterosexuality to the point where...well, people say stuff like you say and use it to dismiss the issues LGBT people face cause we are 'not normal'.


Ignoring minorites just because they are minorities is well, bad. It is used to justify a good hefty chunk if bigotry.


We just want more representation and of higher quality than we have. Some people have tried to twist it as if we want a token LGBT character in every single thing, but that is just not true. I just want more and for those times when we get it to not have people flip out cause the mere inclusion of LGBT people makes people mad.


Alot of people try to argue 'I dont really have a problem with it' but then put too much effort into arguing why it is bad. That doesnt say to me that such people are really ok with it.