Trans representation in gaming

[CriticalGaming]

Every straight romance is flaunting heterosexuality, and more stories than not have straight romances, often without needing them at all.

That isn't true. Romance itself is not flaunting any sexuality. The purpose in a story is generally to show the audience the development of a bond between two characters. It's stereotypical of hollywood story telling, but that doesn't make it "flaunting" hetero-sexuality. You are projecting that opinion upon the material, not reflecting the intent of that material. Which makes it a personal issue to you. Opinion, not fact.

Not to mention that heterosexuality is the norm.
Just having it in a game is not flaunting it, unless is ends up becoming the entire thing the game is revolving around, explicitly.

Which would be the case in something like HoneyPop, or dating Sims. And having more LBGTQ based dating sims and visual novels would be awesome, and I sincerely hope the community gets more games like that if they want them.

But in games were dating/sex aren't the focus, then sexuality is rather low on the list of importance for a character. The new Lara Croft could be gay, but because the context of the games have never had nor needed a situation to clarify this, then it's an unknown that has no baring on the game nor her quality as a game character.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Okay, so this gives me a better idea of what you mean by the Plinkett Test (which isn't really the same thing they were doing in the Star Wars review). The problem is, you can do what you just did with almost any character.

Strictly speaking, everything but the first sentence in either of our examples is extraneous to the Plinkett test and actually outside its parameters. The only reason I went further in the case of my example, was because you singled out a trait in Alex Murphy/Robocop's character most would immediately point to and even argue is necessary for the film, because it's so visually striking and prominent in the film (look at the title of the movie for God's sake). But, a deep dive reveals the opposite -- the only purpose of that trait is to obfuscate the Christ allegory until the film's climax, and it's completely divorced from his characterization.

It would be like, in your case, specifically citing Jar-Jar being an alien. In your entire paragraph you mentioned alien once, and in that case you mentioned it as an abstraction -- you could have used any other descriptive noun or pronoun in its place. You could have said "Jar-Jar is a bumbling, foolish person with a desire to be helpful..." without sacrificing anything. The only relevance Jar-Jar being an alien has, is that Gungans are aliens. He could have been a human, a droid, a sentient fart, anything really, and it wouldn't have impacted his characterization.

The funny thing is, Jar-Jar's actually the strongest character in TPM. He has clear, easily defined, and unmistakable character traits. He has a definitive character arc with a beginning, middle, and end. He has a clearly-defined role in the movie, and his presence facilitates the move from one plot point to another. That's why he's the most memorable character in the entire movie, that's why he's the most divisive character in the entire movie, and honestly, you may not realize it, but that's why you picked him.

That's the point of the Plinkett test. It's not about whether the character is "good" or "bad" in the commonly-understood sense of being relatable, visually-striking, likable or dislikable, it's about how substantial the characterization is in the first place. It's the Jack Sparrow "but you have heard of me" effect.

 

[Saelune]

Every straight romance is flaunting heterosexuality, and more stories than not have straight romances, often without needing them at all.

That isn't true. Romance itself is not flaunting any sexuality. The purpose in a story is generally to show the audience the development of a bond between two characters. It's stereotypical of hollywood story telling, but that doesn't make it "flaunting" hetero-sexuality. You are projecting that opinion upon the material, not reflecting the intent of that material. Which makes it a personal issue to you. Opinion, not fact.

Why is it 'in your face' when LGBT people do it, but not when straight people do it?

 

[Saelune]

Every straight romance is flaunting heterosexuality, and more stories than not have straight romances, often without needing them at all.

That isn't true. Romance itself is not flaunting any sexuality. The purpose in a story is generally to show the audience the development of a bond between two characters. It's stereotypical of hollywood story telling, but that doesn't make it "flaunting" hetero-sexuality. You are projecting that opinion upon the material, not reflecting the intent of that material. Which makes it a personal issue to you. Opinion, not fact.

Not to mention that heterosexuality is the norm.
Just having it in a game is not flaunting it, unless is ends up becoming the entire thing the game is revolving around, explicitly.

'Just having it in the game is not flaunting it'? People freaking out over every LGBT character ever disagree.

 

[Erttheking]

Every straight romance is flaunting heterosexuality, and more stories than not have straight romances, often without needing them at all.

That isn't true. Romance itself is not flaunting any sexuality. The purpose in a story is generally to show the audience the development of a bond between two characters. It's stereotypical of hollywood story telling, but that doesn't make it "flaunting" hetero-sexuality. You are projecting that opinion upon the material, not reflecting the intent of that material. Which makes it a personal issue to you. Opinion, not fact.

Not to mention that heterosexuality is the norm.
Just having it in a game is not flaunting it, unless is ends up becoming the entire thing the game is revolving around, explicitly.

'Just having it in the game is not flaunting it'? People freaking out over every LGBT character ever disagree.

Because het people are used to being pandered to so they think being pandered to is the norm, and anyway break away from that is the REAL pandering, but it's not pandering when it happens to them because they just think it's normal then.

 

[Saelune]

Every straight romance is flaunting heterosexuality, and more stories than not have straight romances, often without needing them at all.

That isn't true. Romance itself is not flaunting any sexuality. The purpose in a story is generally to show the audience the development of a bond between two characters. It's stereotypical of hollywood story telling, but that doesn't make it "flaunting" hetero-sexuality. You are projecting that opinion upon the material, not reflecting the intent of that material. Which makes it a personal issue to you. Opinion, not fact.

Not to mention that heterosexuality is the norm.
Just having it in a game is not flaunting it, unless is ends up becoming the entire thing the game is revolving around, explicitly.

'Just having it in the game is not flaunting it'? People freaking out over every LGBT character ever disagree.

Because het people are used to being pandered to so they think being pandered to is the norm, and anyway break away from that is the REAL pandering, but it's not pandering when it happens to them because they just think it's normal then.

'When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression'

 

[CriticalGaming]

Why is it 'in your face' when LGBT people do it, but not when straight people do it? 'Just having it in the game is not flaunting it'? People freaking out over every LGBT character ever disagree.

Who's freaking out over every LBGT character? Actually it looks to me, like more people from the LBGT community actually "freak out" over a given character then "cis" people do about the character being there. The outrage seems to come more from people within the LBGTQ actually disagreeing with how a given LBGTQ character is handled in game, certainly more than I've ever seen anyone else upset that there are there in the first place.

So I would argue that it's the LBGTQ community that has more of a problem with their inclusion than anyone else.

Let's be clear here, I am not, nor have I seen anyone, calling LBGTQ romance in any form of media "in your face". You brought up that straight people doing it as a flaunting of heterosexuality and I merely disagreed with that opinion as projecting.

I don't have any problem, nor would I have a problem with it. I didn't have a problem with it in the movie Bruno, and I don't have problems with it in any other forms of media including video games.

If you have any sources of articles that advocate for anti-LBGTQ inclusion in gaming, I'd love to know so I can disagree with those articles as well.

 

[Saelune]

Why is it 'in your face' when LGBT people do it, but not when straight people do it? 'Just having it in the game is not flaunting it'? People freaking out over every LGBT character ever disagree.

Who's freaking out over every LBGT character? Actually it looks to me, like more people from the LBGT community actually "freak out" over a given character then "cis" people do about the character being there. The outrage seems to come more from people within the LBGTQ actually disagreeing with how a given LBGTQ character is handled in game, certainly more than I've ever seen anyone else upset that there are there in the first place.

So I would argue that it's the LBGTQ community that has more of a problem with their inclusion than anyone else.

Does it though? I see more people complaining about the 'SJW propaganda' than anything. Maybe you just arent looking?

 

[Wakey87]

The idea that "having fun" with trans inclusion means revisiting a long-dead debate over whether trans people exist is so out of touch with reality that I've already dignified it too much by even mentioning it.

Thats not what I ment at all, but just shows how no one will touch this subject incase of misinterpretation.
Because aparently there are people that don't know trans people exist and I'm now one of them...

 

[Saelune]

Why is it 'in your face' when LGBT people do it, but not when straight people do it? 'Just having it in the game is not flaunting it'? People freaking out over every LGBT character ever disagree.

Who's freaking out over every LBGT character? Actually it looks to me, like more people from the LBGT community actually "freak out" over a given character then "cis" people do about the character being there. The outrage seems to come more from people within the LBGTQ actually disagreeing with how a given LBGTQ character is handled in game, certainly more than I've ever seen anyone else upset that there are there in the first place.

So I would argue that it's the LBGTQ community that has more of a problem with their inclusion than anyone else.

Let's be clear here, I am not, nor have I seen anyone, calling LBGTQ romance in any form of media "in your face". You brought up that straight people doing it as a flaunting of heterosexuality and I merely disagreed with that opinion as projecting.

I don't have any problem, nor would I have a problem with it. I didn't have a problem with it in the movie Bruno, and I don't have problems with it in any other forms of media including video games.

If you have any sources of articles that advocate for anti-LBGTQ inclusion in gaming, I'd love to know so I can disagree with those articles as well.

Ugh, you added stuff while I was typing.

It is easy to say it does not bother you, it is another thing to mean it. I bring up the straight people comment cause it IS flaunting it, the thing is, I dont think that is an afront to me, except when other people say it is an afront to them to see LGBT people be represented too. I dont see the male and female lead kiss and go 'Ugh, get this heteronormative propaganda out of my movie/game/book/TV show/commercial'. I do feel good when I see some actual LGBT representation though. It feels nice. Why is that so wrong?

 

[Wakey87]

Drawing within the lines rarely breeds creativity. Creativity is boldness. If people make sincere attempts, they will probably be fine. If they end up offending people, maybe they deserve to be punished instead of putting on a fa?ade of decency?

I live in a world where a comedy sketch with a pug gets you a criminal conviction, intent means nothing these days.

 

[Saelune]

Drawing within the lines rarely breeds creativity. Creativity is boldness. If people make sincere attempts, they will probably be fine. If they end up offending people, maybe they deserve to be punished instead of putting on a fa?ade of decency?

I live in a world where a comedy sketch with a pug gets you a criminal conviction, intent means nothing these days.

Elaborate.

 

[Wakey87]

The idea that chromosomes decide gender is even more absurd

Yep, I'm done here. This is more virtue signaling than actual scientific evidence.
People are free to beleive what they want, if you beleive your a women/man I'm not going tell you your wrong, infact I'll stand with you with that fact. But legaly changing an official document to falsify your genetics is where I draw the line.

But maybe I'm wrong and you are much more progessive than me, and hell I don't know in a few years instead of laughing at people like 'Woah Vicky' we will actualy reconise that maybe this white girl really is black and doesn't just feel like one.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Ugh, you added stuff while I was typing.

It is easy to say it does not bother you, it is another thing to mean it. I bring up the straight people comment cause it IS flaunting it, the thing is, I dont think that is an afront to me, except when other people say it is an afront to them to see LGBT people be represented too. I dont see the male and female lead kiss and go 'Ugh, get this heteronormative propaganda out of my movie/game/book/TV show/commercial'. I do feel good when I see some actual LGBT representation though. It feels nice. Why is that so wrong?

Sorry about that, I hit post before I was ready and had to edit.

Anyway, yes I can only speak for myself that's true. Just like you can only speak for yourself. But to say what characters who kiss on screen is some kind of normal vs. not-normal(alt? I dunno a term to use for this) is some kind of propaganda is simply untrue. It's not propaganda of any kind. It's just storytelling in a fashion to relate to the widest audience possible.

You sort of condescendingly call it "normal" but really it is just the majority. As a result you are doing to get more hetero relationships in main stream storytelling because it simply is the majority of romantic relationships.

I think the biggest thing that bothers me, is the LBGTQ community likes to try and do two things. They try to demonize Hetero-sexuality like it is some oppressive force kicking anything non-hetero out of it's way like a mighty boot. And they try to making themselves seem like a bigger community than they are. Looking at the 2016 census poll (which might not be everyone) 4.7% of the U.S. population identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States).

When less than 10% of your population being LGBTQ (sorry I had the letters in the wrong order apparently) then I'm sorry but Hetero-sexuallity is basically the "norm". So your media, books, games, movies, advertisements, are going to be dominated by what is "normal" because the LGBTQ audience is just not that big. Especially when you factor in that not all of that 4.7% popluation is going to play a video game, or see a given movie.

Look represenation is great, and so long as characters are well written and are a naturally inserted part of the story. I'm all for having more diverse casts of characters. Can we at least agree that maybe expectations of included LGBTQ characters are a bit high considering?

 

[Saelune]

Ugh, you added stuff while I was typing.

It is easy to say it does not bother you, it is another thing to mean it. I bring up the straight people comment cause it IS flaunting it, the thing is, I dont think that is an afront to me, except when other people say it is an afront to them to see LGBT people be represented too. I dont see the male and female lead kiss and go 'Ugh, get this heteronormative propaganda out of my movie/game/book/TV show/commercial'. I do feel good when I see some actual LGBT representation though. It feels nice. Why is that so wrong?

Sorry about that, I hit post before I was ready and had to edit.

Anyway, yes I can only speak for myself that's true. Just like you can only speak for yourself. But to say what characters who kiss on screen is some kind of normal vs. not-normal(alt? I dunno a term to use for this) is some kind of propaganda is simply untrue. It's not propaganda of any kind. It's just storytelling in a fashion to relate to the widest audience possible.

You sort of condescendingly call it "normal" but really it is just the majority. As a result you are doing to get more hetero relationships in main stream storytelling because it simply is the majority of romantic relationships.

I think the biggest thing that bothers me, is the LBGTQ community likes to try and do two things. They try to demonize Hetero-sexuality like it is some oppressive force kicking anything non-hetero out of it's way like a mighty boot. And they try to making themselves seem like a bigger community than they are. Looking at the 2016 census poll (which might not be everyone) 4.7% of the U.S. population identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States).

When less than 10% of your population being LGBTQ (sorry I had the letters in the wrong order apparently) then I'm sorry but Hetero-sexuallity is basically the "norm". So your media, books, games, movies, advertisements, are going to be dominated by what is "normal" because the LGBTQ audience is just not that big. Especially when you factor in that not all of that 4.7% popluation is going to play a video game, or see a given movie.

Look represenation is great, and so long as characters are well written and are a naturally inserted part of the story. I'm all for having more diverse casts of characters. Can we at least agree that maybe expectations of included LGBTQ characters are a bit high considering?

Its called 'heteronormative', the normalization of heterosexuality to the point where...well, people say stuff like you say and use it to dismiss the issues LGBT people face cause we are 'not normal'.


Ignoring minorites just because they are minorities is well, bad. It is used to justify a good hefty chunk if bigotry.


We just want more representation and of higher quality than we have. Some people have tried to twist it as if we want a token LGBT character in every single thing, but that is just not true. I just want more and for those times when we get it to not have people flip out cause the mere inclusion of LGBT people makes people mad.


Alot of people try to argue 'I dont really have a problem with it' but then put too much effort into arguing why it is bad. That doesnt say to me that such people are really ok with it.

 

[Wakey87]

Drawing within the lines rarely breeds creativity. Creativity is boldness. If people make sincere attempts, they will probably be fine. If they end up offending people, maybe they deserve to be punished instead of putting on a fa?ade of decency?

I live in a world where a comedy sketch with a pug gets you a criminal conviction, intent means nothing these days.

Elaborate.

You are right that boldness is the key to creativity. I just don't think today with the outrage culture the way it is, would allow it. look at GTA they created it's own contraversey back in the 90's because that what got you noticed, today I fear they would of been shut down before they were off the ground.

The same with Count Dankula with the nazi pug video, it was an edgey joke that ended with a ciminal conviction. I don't think if Eminem started his career today with lines like "hate faggots - the answers yes' he would of been around that long. Which I beleive would of been ashame.

No one should be above criticism.

 

[Saelune]

Drawing within the lines rarely breeds creativity. Creativity is boldness. If people make sincere attempts, they will probably be fine. If they end up offending people, maybe they deserve to be punished instead of putting on a fa?ade of decency?

I live in a world where a comedy sketch with a pug gets you a criminal conviction, intent means nothing these days.

Elaborate.

You are right that boldness is the key to creativity. I just don't think today with the outrage culture the way it is, would allow it. look at GTA they created it's own contraversey back in the 90's because that what got you noticed, today I fear they would of been shut down before they were off the ground.

The same with Count Dankula with the nazi pug video, it was an edgey joke that ended with a ciminal conviction. I don't think if Eminem started his career today with lines like "hate faggots - the answers yes' he would of been around that long. Which I beleive would of been ashame.

No one should be above criticism.

Oh right, the guy who after making 'a simple joke' went on to support and join a right-wing party heavily associated with Nazis and general white supremacy.

There is a difference between making a poor representation of LGBT people, versus making a poor representation of LGBT people, then joining an anti-LGBT organization.

 

[Wakey87]

Snip

He joined UKIP, which is more right than conservatives yes but still to the left of the republican party in America. But yeah 'far right' sound much worse lol

He did so happen to be a communist when he was young and even got the hammer and sickle tattooed on his chest, so yeah I guess he used to be Far-Left.

 

[Wakey87]

Oh right, the guy who after making 'a simple joke' went on to support and join a right-wing party heavily associated with Nazis and general white supremacy.

That isnot what UKIP stand for, your either thinking of the BNP or are lumping all right wing parties in the same boat.

 

[Saelune]

Snip

He joined UKIP, which is more right than conservatives yes but still to the left of the republican party in America. But yeah 'far right' sound much worse lol

He did so happen to be a communist when he was young and even got the hammer and sickle tattooed on his chest, so yeah I guess he used to be Far-Left.

The US Republican Party is so far right, that you can be less right-wing and racist than them and still be super right-wing and racist.


If he wanted to prove he was only joking, he did basically the opposite of what he should do.

People change. I don't have the same views I did 2, 5, 10+ years ago. If he used to not be terrible, well he is terrible now.