Trans representation in gaming

[Avnger]

That being said, there's a ton of non-male chars who are household names like 2B or Samus or Lara Croft or Bayonetta that men have had no issues identifying with and enjoying the games they're in, which suggests that whatever is causing most game chars to be men, male gamer's supposed inability to identify with other groups is not the cause.

Picking 4 female characters that are heavily sexualized for straight male fantasies doesn't help your case as much as you might think...

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

That being said, there's a ton of non-male chars who are household names like 2B or Samus or Lara Croft or Bayonetta that men have had no issues identifying with and enjoying the games they're in, which suggests that whatever is causing most game chars to be men, male gamer's supposed inability to identify with other groups is not the cause.

Picking 4 female characters that are heavily sexualized for straight male fantasies doesn't help your case as much as you might think...

If they are heavily sexualized (as female) shouldn't that make it even more difficult for males to identify with them?

The point is, it is possible to relate to someone of a completely different sex/color/orientation. We're all human, we all have feelings, our own worries, troubles and personal problems as well as our joys and triumphs. This should be cause for celebration, no? It means that no matter what my body looks like and who I'm attracted to, I can identify with your motivation to rob ancient tombs for treasure or to shoot Nazi soldiers in the face with a shotgun.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

If they are heavily sexualized (as female) shouldn't that make it even more difficult for males to identify with them?

Quite the opposite, since the sexualization is a direct result of male fanservice. Since their design is sprung out of stereotypical male fantasies that makes it easier for men to relate to the stereotype (hot, sexy woman) then if the characters would have had actual characterization. Of all 4 characters listed, only Lara Croft can sort of be called an actual character instead of a player avatar (and even them Lara is only barely a character in the reboots, old Lara is very blank slate), and Lara's gender is downplayed a lot in the reboots.

You can compare to how it is often easier to relate to stereotypes of ethnicity or religion (all jews are crafty cheapskates, Catholics are repressed and neurotic etc.) then it is to relate to complex characters. To relate to a complex, actual character you have to have some common ground with the character and at least understand where their motivations and decisions are coming from. 2B, Samus and Bayonetta fails this outright, because none of them have any particular characterization (and when Samus got it it was widely reviled by fans who felt it sucked) and Lara's characterization is about her suffering a lot and having daddy issues. We can all relate to them because they are blank slates, there's nothing about them that prevents you from just self-inserting. But imagine the issues a lot of guys would have if a part of the next Tomb Raider was Lara having to find tampon substitutes and painkillers because her period is setting in and she's having the worst bleeding and abdominal cramps or Bayonetta having to deal with creeping guys who wants to exploit her open sexuality.

The point is, it is possible to relate to someone of a completely different sex/color/orientation. We're all human, we all have feelings, our own worries, troubles and personal problems as well as our joys and triumphs. This should be cause for celebration, no? It means that no matter what my body looks like and who I'm attracted to, I can identify with your motivation to rob ancient tombs for treasure or to shoot Nazi soldiers in the face with a shotgun.

I think you are correct. I also think you under-estimate just how hard it actually is to relate in a deep and meaningful fashion. We can all relate to the basic human stuff, having to eat, sleep and feel loved (or killing bad guys and finding treasures in games). But the unique experiences of being male bodied? Of being female bodied but identifying as a man? These are complex lived experiences that those that have them take for granted but are virtually impossible for someone else to experience. How do you explain menstrual cramps and pain to someone who's never had a period? How do you explain the feeling of not fitting into your own body to someone who's never felt it?

Most of us can probably learn to relate to it, but it also takes a concerted effort to be willing to listen. And if there's one thing these discussions about games show, it is that most people are not willing to listen. Instead they feel that their current, limited ability to relate is sufficient (if not outright great in their own estimation), no matter how lacking it is. It is a good example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, really.

 

[Hawki]

To relate to a complex, actual character you have to have some common ground with the character and at least understand where their motivations and decisions are coming from. 2B, Samus and Bayonetta fails this outright, because none of them have any particular characterization (and when Samus got it it was widely reviled by fans who felt it sucked)

Samus had characterization before Other M, if that's what you're referring to. Even discarding EU material, as sparse as her character was, it did still exist (see Fusion for an example).

 

[CriticalGaming]

Honestly I think the biggest reason that we don't see more representation in gaming is because you can't satisfy any given group. Whether it's LBGT, BLM, women, whatever it is there is always a problem.

When that trans character appeared in Mass Effect Andromeda, people complained that it was passe half-assed representation. When the Catherine Remaster revealed a trans gender character, people complained that trans people are represented as villianous manipulative people. Lara Croft makes strides to be far less sexualized and actually be a real character that actually develops in the reboots and people still think she's shit. You put a crippled woman on the cover of BFV and people lose their shit.

How can gaming make strides when every attempt they make is met with outrage.

Why can't these groups constructively support the industry when it at least TRIES to include them. Even if you don't like this gay character or that trans character or whatever, instead of outrage why not approach it differently. Why not tell developers, "You know this is a little stereotypical, it's a good start and we are happy that you are thinking of us, but let's try just making our representation a regular person who happens to be yada yada yada."

Instead you get these hit piece articles saying how sexist or horrible a given character is, and it boggles my mind. Like you can't win over anybody like that. It really seems that people want to be offended by shit, rather that actually trying to make anything better. Like a contest over which group can be the bigger victim.

It really is shifting goal posts 100%. This has been a problem I've had with the feminist movement for a long time, at least in regards to Anita Sarkeesian's string of nonsense. They release these games with strong amazing female characters and Anita's little group will never not have a problem with it. Horizon Zero Dawn came out with a non-sexualized female badass and they complained that she was still too good looking. This last E3 they complained that only 23% of games shown had female main characters ignoring the 50-something % of other games that let you play either male or female.

When developers can't win, they will stop trying to please you. Diversity is a big hot topic now, but if people don't stop bitching at them that everything is wrong, then they will revert to what they know sells. And it will be sexy chicks and dudes with big guns shooting demons/nazis/zombies/etc, gaming with get dumber again.

So let's not do that.

Be more open. Don't complain that Ellie isn't a proper lesbian, don't say that a given character is a shitty trans person. Instead provide constructive criticism and tell them how to do better.

 

[CriticalGaming]

You can compare to how it is often easier to relate to stereotypes of ethnicity or religion (all jews are crafty cheapskates, Catholics are repressed and neurotic etc.) then it is to relate to complex characters. To relate to a complex, actual character you have to have some common ground with the character and at least understand where their motivations and decisions are coming from. 2B, Samus and Bayonetta fails this outright, because none of them have any particular characterization (and when Samus got it it was widely reviled by fans who felt it sucked) and Lara's characterization is about her suffering a lot and having daddy issues. We can all relate to them because they are blank slates, there's nothing about them that prevents you from just self-inserting. But imagine the issues a lot of guys would have if a part of the next Tomb Raider was Lara having to find tampon substitutes and painkillers because her period is setting in and she's having the worst bleeding and abdominal cramps or Bayonetta having to deal with creeping guys who wants to exploit her open sexuality.

The problem with this statement, is that you are looking at these characters as too literal. You are putting real world problems upon them when they are not real people. The point of every video game character is for some sort of fantasy or artistic representation.

You use 2B as an example and I think you miss the metaphor that she represents in the whole androids being in blind service of the humans that may or may not even exist. Or Bayonetta, who is a character that embodies sexual empowerment on purpose, she uses sexuality as a weapon. There are some situations where sexualization is on purpose for the art of the game, but too many people are quick to ignore the purpose and project their feels upon a character in order to twist a piece of art into something negative.

Sure there are other characters in which they seem to be female for no other purpose than to tantalize, but even then I feel like people project sexualization upon female characters in order to fit their narative right? Like Samus or Peach, regardless of the Damsel trope that Peach might fall under, where are either of these girls sexualized? What about Overwatch characters? In what way is Mercy, Tracer, or Sombra sexualized?

I think people like to call it sexualization because the character is attractive, and I don't think that's fair. Attractiveness is to make the character appealing. People do not want to play ugly chracters (unless they fall under the badass monster catagory) look at any number of character creator systems in any game that has them. The % of players playing really fucked up looking characters in games like Saint's Row, Mass Effect, Dark Souls, Etc is extremely low. When the freedom to play unattractive characters is presented, people still don't do it.

So what's wrong with characters being in shape? It doesn't make sense, and it is really rather insulting when people say, "These female characters are there to appeal to all the horny horrible men to gawk and get their kicks with" (slightly exaggerating here obviously) As a straight white dude, I often feel attacked by all these naratives that people paint and I sit there confused because all I wanted was to play some video games.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

You use 2B as an example and I think you miss the metaphor that she represents in the whole androids being in blind service of the humans that may or may not even exist. Or Bayonetta, who is a character that embodies sexual empowerment on purpose, she uses sexuality as a weapon. There are some situations where sexualization is on purpose for the art of the game, but too many people are quick to ignore the purpose and project their feels upon a character in order to twist a piece of art into something negative.

I believe this was really part of my point, though I might have expressed it badly. When one character is female-bodied, but that's kind of irrelevant because the character is a robot, and one is a witch who's entire characterization can be summed up as "is cheeky, confident and totally uses her sexualization as a weapon", then you've not really made good female protagonists. Being a woman is more then looking like a stereotypical female body.

Why can't these groups constructively support the industry when it at least TRIES to include them. Even if you don't like this gay character or that trans character or whatever, instead of outrage why not approach it differently. Why not tell developers, "You know this is a little stereotypical, it's a good start and we are happy that you are thinking of us, but let's try just making our representation a regular person who happens to be yada yada yada."

I don't know your background, but let's play pretend here: Imagine that you're a black person in America. Imagine that you are used to never seeing any of the food that you consider part of your cultural heritage in restaurants. Then one day a restaurant sends out a promotion that it now offers up a dish that honors and acknowledges the African-American community and its contributions to cuisine. So you head over there, the waiter tells you have great this special dish they've decided to put on their menu is. So you order it and what you get is a bucket of fried chicken and a plate of mashed potatoes. Do you think that you would commend the restaurant for "at least trying" or would you feel insulted that the best they could come up with was this stereotypical shit that misses the mark?

Trying is good. But as many people have pointed out around this topic all around the web: It is easy to tell when an attempt to be inclusive is sincere and makes an effort, even if it fails or misses the mark, and when it is cynical or insincere and meant only to seem inclusive. Besides, criticism is what improves any craft, even writing. Tone policing the criticism is just petty.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

if we cant tell, it kind of doesnst work, even though it is sort of counter-intuitive.

This is in fact one of the harder problems to deal with when writing characters with less visible minority traits.

Like, I've likely mentioned this before but I make RPGs for fun. Several of my characters have non-traditional sexuality in some capacity (Bi, non-binary, etc).

Most of them never have it revealed about them because of short run times or there's no natural elegant way to have it come up, and I'd rather not mention it than ham-handedly shove it in. If I make a character like that (because I find it makes them more interesting or cool or whatever), I want to do it right.

sooooo.... those characters dont have those traits? i mean if a character has trait X that never comes up or is revealed or what not do they even have that trait? like say j.k rowling comes out and says i made ron with pink eyes. but since it never came up or was revealed or anything can you even say ron had pink eyes?

That's the tricky bit, innit?

Like, I made the characters with these traits in mind, but they didn't really get expressed in the end product because of time and scope constraints. So it's both there and not there at the same time.

And yeah, that does disappoint me, but if I can't find a way to properly express it without it coming across as forced, it's probably better left unsaid. Basically I want to do it right or not at all.

 

[CriticalGaming]

You use 2B as an example and I think you miss the metaphor that she represents in the whole androids being in blind service of the humans that may or may not even exist. Or Bayonetta, who is a character that embodies sexual empowerment on purpose, she uses sexuality as a weapon. There are some situations where sexualization is on purpose for the art of the game, but too many people are quick to ignore the purpose and project their feels upon a character in order to twist a piece of art into something negative.

I believe this was really part of my point, though I might have expressed it badly. When one character is female-bodied, but that's kind of irrelevant because the character is a robot, and one is a witch who's entire characterization can be summed up as "is cheeky, confident and totally uses her sexualization as a weapon", then you've not really made good female protagonists. Being a woman is more then looking like a stereotypical female body.

Why can't these groups constructively support the industry when it at least TRIES to include them. Even if you don't like this gay character or that trans character or whatever, instead of outrage why not approach it differently. Why not tell developers, "You know this is a little stereotypical, it's a good start and we are happy that you are thinking of us, but let's try just making our representation a regular person who happens to be yada yada yada."

I don't know your background, but let's play pretend here: Imagine that you're a black person in America. Imagine that you are used to never seeing any of the food that you consider part of your cultural heritage in restaurants. Then one day a restaurant sends out a promotion that it now offers up a dish that honors and acknowledges the African-American community and its contributions to cuisine. So you head over there, the waiter tells you have great this special dish they've decided to put on their menu is. So you order it and what you get is a bucket of fried chicken and a plate of mashed potatoes. Do you think that you would commend the restaurant for "at least trying" or would you feel insulted that the best they could come up with was this stereotypical shit that misses the mark?

Trying is good. But as many people have pointed out around this topic all around the web: It is easy to tell when an attempt to be inclusive is sincere and makes an effort, even if it fails or misses the mark, and when it is cynical or insincere and meant only to seem inclusive. Besides, criticism is what improves any craft, even writing. Tone policing the criticism is just petty.

Yur logic is flawed becuase it implies that no African American food is served anywhere. Therefore the fried chicken wouldnt be served anywhere, so yes it does try as counting when a restaurant tries to serve it.

But that comparison doesnt work for characterization in fictional work. And especially in these cases because how do you show a character is gay or trans? If they are a well done character who acts like just a normal person, their sexuality is meaningless unless shown or outright told to the player.

Criticalgaming got banned for saying Mario is gay for some reason. But what if he had a point?

Think about this. Mario and Lugi look nothing alike really. Mario saves Peach over and over again and yet, he dont have any kids with her? Yet Bowser has kids. What if Mario and Luigi are life partners? Better yet, what if Mario is really the villain in his world? Bowser has kids, and he keeps "kidnapping" Peach right? Well perhaps Bowser and Peach are married and have kids and Mario is the one who keeps kidnapping Peach to rule over his Mushroom slaves. He has stolen her from bowser so often that she has come over to Mario's side due to some stockholm syndrome......holy shit! It would be the greatest ruse of all time!

Or i gotta stop smoking pot first thing in the morning.


Either way the point is this...the characters that ive seen in gaming are not stereotypical. The Mass Effect character was just an NPC who wanted a new life because they didnt feel accepted as a trans person in the Milky Way, isnt that the most relatable thing to the trans community? It wasnt over the top, the character didnt stand out, they were just a normal person trying to find a home. How was that a bad thing?

See i dont think people just want representation in games. They want trans characters to be MAIN characters. Not npcs of side characters, they want to be the star and i think that is a little too much to be asking for right out of the gate. You have to get people to accept that concept, if you try for that all at once then people will only recoil from the thought. But if you ease the public into it, side characters, mini quests, etc it will gradually become more normal in the main zeitgeist and thus people wont recoil from a trans main character, they would accept it.

I think that might be a problem with the LBGT community's push in the public space as a whole. Too much all at once. You gotta ease people into it like a frog in cold water that you slowly raise the temperature of until suddenly it just all becomes normal and no big deal.

That makes sense dosnt it?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Honestly I think the biggest reason that we don't see more representation in gaming is because you can't satisfy any given group. Whether it's LBGT, BLM, women, whatever it is there is always a problem.

When that trans character appeared in Mass Effect Andromeda, people complained that it was passe half-assed representation. When the Catherine Remaster revealed a trans gender character, people complained that trans people are represented as villianous manipulative people. Lara Croft makes strides to be far less sexualized and actually be a real character that actually develops in the reboots and people still think she's shit. You put a crippled woman on the cover of BFV and people lose their shit.

How can gaming make strides when every attempt they make is met with outrage.

Why can't these groups constructively support the industry when it at least TRIES to include them.

Okay, stop, hold the presses, etc.

These are not the same groups of people. You can't just say "well people were mad at DoA's blatant sexualization, and people get mad when they try to tone it down, so you can never please those people" like it's the same people getting mad. (Anita Sarkeesian might be, but she could also be making a fairly reasonable critique that's being conflated with Jack Thompson-esc censorus madness because dorks on the internet love cutting her videos to ribbons for easy views, and honestly? I don't care enough anymore to go check. Shaun's got a pretty good example of how that shakes out.)

Like, the Catherine example: Catherine has a Trans character: Erica. At the time, I thought she was great. Then, I started hanging out with, you know, trans people. Turns out, when your only trans character laments not being able to have kids (the Japanese government requires sterilization before you can change a gender ID), gets caught up in the curse that only effects men, and when the dude with a crush on her finds out, the big joke is that he "wants his v-card back", that's....not great, to say the least.

So then they tease a new character. Another trans character for Vincent to hang out with. And shock-horror, she has a weenus, que deformed horror-face. Trends a bit close to Ace Ventura: Pet Detective

But hey, at least they're trying right?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Either way the point is this...the characters that ive seen in gaming are not stereotypical. The Mass Effect character was just an NPC who wanted a new life because they didnt feel accepted as a trans person in the Milky Way, isnt that the most relatable thing to the trans community? It wasnt over the top, the character didnt stand out, they were just a normal person trying to find a home. How was that a bad thing?

While I did see a few people annoyed at the trans side-character deadnaming themselves in the space of thirty seconds, I saw a lot more complaining about how you couldn't tell off, slander, fire, or otherwise "disagree" with the character, and how they were being "shoved down throats", etc. These are not the same groups of people.

See i dont think people just want representation in games. They want trans characters to be MAIN characters. Not npcs of side characters, they want to be the star and i think that is a little too much to be asking for right out of the gate. You have to get people to accept that concept, if you try for that all at once then people will only recoil from the thought. But if you ease the public into it, side characters, mini quests, etc it will gradually become more normal in the main zeitgeist and thus people wont recoil from a trans main character, they would accept it.

They still don't accept ladies as protagonists.

I think that might be a problem with the LBGT community's push in the public space as a whole. Too much all at once. You gotta ease people into it like a frog in cold water that you slowly raise the temperature of until suddenly it just all becomes normal and no big deal.

That makes sense dosnt it?

...How long do you think trans people have existed? LGBT people? Stonewall happened before pong was invented. How much longer do LGBT people have to lean into society before they can be in a video game without controversy?

 

[CriticalGaming]

Either way the point is this...the characters that ive seen in gaming are not stereotypical. The Mass Effect character was just an NPC who wanted a new life because they didnt feel accepted as a trans person in the Milky Way, isnt that the most relatable thing to the trans community? It wasnt over the top, the character didnt stand out, they were just a normal person trying to find a home. How was that a bad thing?

While I did see a few people annoyed at the trans side-character deadnaming themselves in the space of thirty seconds, I saw a lot more complaining about how you couldn't tell off, slander, fire, or otherwise "disagree" with the character, and how they were being "shoved down throats", etc. These are not the same groups of people.

See i dont think people just want representation in games. They want trans characters to be MAIN characters. Not npcs of side characters, they want to be the star and i think that is a little too much to be asking for right out of the gate. You have to get people to accept that concept, if you try for that all at once then people will only recoil from the thought. But if you ease the public into it, side characters, mini quests, etc it will gradually become more normal in the main zeitgeist and thus people wont recoil from a trans main character, they would accept it.

They still don't accept ladies as protagonists.

I think that might be a problem with the LBGT community's push in the public space as a whole. Too much all at once. You gotta ease people into it like a frog in cold water that you slowly raise the temperature of until suddenly it just all becomes normal and no big deal.

That makes sense dosnt it?

...How long do you think trans people have existed? LGBT people? Stonewall happened before pong was invented. How much longer do LGBT people have to lean into society before they can be in a video game without controversy?

Existed sure. But it is a community that has always relished itself into the cult appeal, something akin to Rocky Horror right?

For the most part the main stream public has been able to ignore them. Then gay rights started coming about, and slowly we started to see more gays in media, movies, until eventually theyve been given the right to marry in many states.

Transgender folks are going to face those same challenges. It has to be a slow push of integration into the mainstream. As it stands now the trans issues have burst forth with a bang and you cant do that. It will never work, because too many people think its crazy.

It would be like going from from working up the courage to drive 75 on the freeway, to jumping out of a plane. You gotta work up to different extremes.

I believe the trans community can get themselves into the zeitgeist but they gotta tone down the outrage and find a way to ease people into it. Im not saying its right or its fair, but the world aint fair so you gotta deal with it on its terms to get what you want.


Also who the fuck doesnt accept female main characters? Besides B-Cell? Sales figures of tomb raider and horizon and hellblade would strongly disagree with that.

 

[Mcgeezaks]

They still don't accept ladies as protagonists.

Who? Who doesn't accept women as protagonists? I don't think I've seen a game crash and burn because the game had a female protagonist.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

That being said, there's a ton of non-male chars who are household names like 2B or Samus or Lara Croft or Bayonetta that men have had no issues identifying with and enjoying the games they're in, which suggests that whatever is causing most game chars to be men, male gamer's supposed inability to identify with other groups is not the cause.

Picking 4 female characters that are heavily sexualized for straight male fantasies doesn't help your case as much as you might think...

My case is that men can empathize with non-men. Nothing beyond that. As long as it can be shown that men don't need someone else to also be a straight man to be able to empathize, my case is proven.

If you wanna start a separate topic about how women who are sexually appealing to men aren't real women and you can only have a "true" female representative if she looks like a cave troll because that's someone who would most definitely not be liked due to her appearance, well, that'd have to happen in a separate thread. Also that'd be kinda anti-woman because it is a prescriptive way of femininity that is anti-freedom. Women can be sexualized and attractive to men and they're still 100%women and there's nothing wrong with any of that, at all.

Hence, empathizing with one such woman is the same as empathizing with a land whale as far as ones' capacity to empathize with female protagonists goes.

 

[Erttheking]

That being said, there's a ton of non-male chars who are household names like 2B or Samus or Lara Croft or Bayonetta that men have had no issues identifying with and enjoying the games they're in, which suggests that whatever is causing most game chars to be men, male gamer's supposed inability to identify with other groups is not the cause.

Picking 4 female characters that are heavily sexualized for straight male fantasies doesn't help your case as much as you might think...

My case is that men can empathize with non-men. Nothing beyond that. As long as it can be shown that men don't need someone else to also be a straight man to be able to empathize, my case is proven.

If you wanna start a separate topic about how women who are sexually appealing to men aren't real women and you can only have a "true" female representative if she looks like a cave troll because that's someone who would most definitely not be liked due to her appearance, well, that'd have to happen in a separate thread. Also that'd be kinda anti-woman because it is a prescriptive way of femininity that is anti-freedom. Women can be sexualized and attractive to men and they're still 100%women and there's nothing wrong with any of that, at all.

Hence, empathizing with one such woman is the same as empathizing with a land whale as far as ones' capacity to empathize with female protagonists goes.

I?m waiting to see if make gamers can emphasize with female characters in roles where their gender isn?t a secondary trait. Or when they?re designed to titilate. Men can have their gender front and center and not be eye candy, not so much the other way around.

And put the straw man away. Titilation celebrates feminity the way a video called ?hot ladies fuck? on pornhub celebrates LGBT culture. You?re defending tits in games, not how women dress IRL

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

That being said, there's a ton of non-male chars who are household names like 2B or Samus or Lara Croft or Bayonetta that men have had no issues identifying with and enjoying the games they're in, which suggests that whatever is causing most game chars to be men, male gamer's supposed inability to identify with other groups is not the cause.

Picking 4 female characters that are heavily sexualized for straight male fantasies doesn't help your case as much as you might think...

My case is that men can empathize with non-men. Nothing beyond that. As long as it can be shown that men don't need someone else to also be a straight man to be able to empathize, my case is proven.

If you wanna start a separate topic about how women who are sexually appealing to men aren't real women and you can only have a "true" female representative if she looks like a cave troll because that's someone who would most definitely not be liked due to her appearance, well, that'd have to happen in a separate thread. Also that'd be kinda anti-woman because it is a prescriptive way of femininity that is anti-freedom. Women can be sexualized and attractive to men and they're still 100%women and there's nothing wrong with any of that, at all.

Hence, empathizing with one such woman is the same as empathizing with a land whale as far as ones' capacity to empathize with female protagonists goes.

I?m waiting to see if make gamers can emphasize with female characters in roles where their gender isn?t front and center. Or when they?re designed to titilate. Men can have their gender front and center and not be eye candy, not so much the other way around.

And put the straw man away. Titilation celebrates feminity the way a video called ?hot ladies fuck? on pornhub celebrates LGBT culture.

I didn't say it "celebrated" femininity, that's your own strawman.

I just said that it was one of the myriad forms of femininity. That you can't just exclude it and disregard empathizing with it. Whether you like it or not, it still is empathizing with women.


And again, Amaterasu from Okami is my example where a female goddess is the protag but she isn't even in a woman's body at all and yet she's one of my all time favs.

 

[Erttheking]

That being said, there's a ton of non-male chars who are household names like 2B or Samus or Lara Croft or Bayonetta that men have had no issues identifying with and enjoying the games they're in, which suggests that whatever is causing most game chars to be men, male gamer's supposed inability to identify with other groups is not the cause.

Picking 4 female characters that are heavily sexualized for straight male fantasies doesn't help your case as much as you might think...

My case is that men can empathize with non-men. Nothing beyond that. As long as it can be shown that men don't need someone else to also be a straight man to be able to empathize, my case is proven.

If you wanna start a separate topic about how women who are sexually appealing to men aren't real women and you can only have a "true" female representative if she looks like a cave troll because that's someone who would most definitely not be liked due to her appearance, well, that'd have to happen in a separate thread. Also that'd be kinda anti-woman because it is a prescriptive way of femininity that is anti-freedom. Women can be sexualized and attractive to men and they're still 100%women and there's nothing wrong with any of that, at all.

Hence, empathizing with one such woman is the same as empathizing with a land whale as far as ones' capacity to empathize with female protagonists goes.

I?m waiting to see if make gamers can emphasize with female characters in roles where their gender isn?t front and center. Or when they?re designed to titilate. Men can have their gender front and center and not be eye candy, not so much the other way around.

And put the straw man away. Titilation celebrates feminity the way a video called ?hot ladies fuck? on pornhub celebrates LGBT culture.

I didn't say it "celebrated" femininity, that's your own strawman.

I just said that it was one of the myriad forms of femininity. That you can't just exclude it and disregard empathizing with it. Whether you like it or not, it still is empathizing with women.


And again, Amaterasu from Okami is my example where a female goddess is the protag but she isn't even in a woman's body at all and yet she's one of my all time favs.

You?re acting like having an issue with over representation of titilation in gaming is an attack on feminity and is anti freedom. It looks to me like you?re implying that gaming celebrates feminity. A notion that I find utterly laughable. I don?t know why you equate uber idealized designs, exposed clevage, and cameras focusing on asses, all of it designed by men to appeal to other men with little to no female input or plans to appeal to them, is a form of feminity, but I think I?ll wait till I hear that from an actual woman before I treat the idea as anything more than a punchline.

I made a typo in my original post, I have now edited it. I am waiting to see if male gamers can emphasize with women that aren?t designed to be eye candy and have their gender frontvabd center. We?ve seen that with male characters. Not with female ones. Ammy doesn?t break the mold. Her gender is very much a secondary trait.

 

[McElroy]

We can all relate to the basic human stuff, having to eat, sleep and feel loved (or killing bad guys and finding treasures in games). But the unique experiences of being male bodied? Of being female bodied but identifying as a man? These are complex lived experiences that those that have them take for granted but are virtually impossible for someone else to experience. How do you explain menstrual cramps and pain to someone who's never had a period? How do you explain the feeling of not fitting into your own body to someone who's never felt it?

Most of us can probably learn to relate to it, but it also takes a concerted effort to be willing to listen. And if there's one thing these discussions about games show, it is that most people are not willing to listen. Instead they feel that their current, limited ability to relate is sufficient (if not outright great in their own estimation), no matter how lacking it is. It is a good example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, really.

Speaking just for myself here, but maybe some of it boils down to mainstream video games just not being a prime medium for this sort of storytelling. The big releases are toys first and foremost. There are experimental video games out there (haven't played them, but I've read articles) about identity, body issues and so on, but those are personal stories made into games. That Dragon, Cancer comes to mind as something that I think got a wider audience, but nevertheless those games are definitely not for everybody.

I am waiting to see if male gamers can emphasize with women that aren't designed to be eye candy and have their gender front and center. We've seen that with male characters. Not with female ones. Ammy doesn't break the mold. Her gender is very much a secondary trait.

I'm not sure I get what type of male characters you mean here. Men that are physically something off-putting while their male identity is important to the context or story of the game? Anyway, BioShock 2 has Delta and Eleanor.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Existed sure. But it is a community that has always relished itself into the cult appeal, something akin to Rocky Horror right?

No? What?

For the most part the main stream public has been able to ignore them. Then gay rights started coming about, and slowly we started to see more gays in media, movies, until eventually theyve been given the right to marry in many states.

The mainstream public has never "ignored" them. Blamed then for a myriad of problems, then as of now, but never ignored them.

Transgender folks are going to face those same challenges. It has to be a slow push of integration into the mainstream. As it stands now the trans issues have burst forth with a bang and you cant do that. It will never work, because too many people think its crazy.

Interracial marriage was legalized in 1967. In 1990, 63% of non-black Americans said that they would be opposed to relatives marrying a black person.

Should we have held off on interracial marriage for 30 more years so people would've been "comfortable" with the idea?

It would be like going from from working up the courage to drive 75 on the freeway, to jumping out of a plane. You gotta work up to different extremes.

I believe the trans community can get themselves into the zeitgeist but they gotta tone down the outrage and find a way to ease people into it. Im not saying its right or its fair, but the world aint fair so you gotta deal with it on its terms to get what you want.

"Force it en mass and point out the world didn't end after" seems to be the best way to go, if the real world is any indication. You're gonna have outrage merchants screaming about body snatching and making up fake bullshit science like "rapid onset gender disphoria" regardless. At least this way, it's in the open instead of a closet.

Also who the fuck doesnt accept female main characters? Besides B-Cell? Sales figures of tomb raider and horizon and hellblade would strongly disagree with that.

Who? Who doesn't accept women as protagonists? I don't think I've seen a game crash and burn because the game had a female protagonist.

The people that complain about SJWs and "real gamers" and junk like that. They're loud, but best they can usually do is splice together hit-piece youtube outrage videos and comb through Twitter.

You guys didn't hear the whining about nuCroft?

 

[CriticalGaming]

Existed sure. But it is a community that has always relished itself into the cult appeal, something akin to Rocky Horror right?

No? What?

For the most part the main stream public has been able to ignore them. Then gay rights started coming about, and slowly we started to see more gays in media, movies, until eventually theyve been given the right to marry in many states.

The mainstream public has never "ignored" them. Blamed then for a myriad of problems, then as of now, but never ignored them.

Transgender folks are going to face those same challenges. It has to be a slow push of integration into the mainstream. As it stands now the trans issues have burst forth with a bang and you cant do that. It will never work, because too many people think its crazy.

Interracial marriage was legalized in 1967. In 1990, 63% of non-black Americans said that they would be opposed to relatives marrying a black person.

Should we have held off on interracial marriage for 30 more years so people would've been "comfortable" with the idea?

It would be like going from from working up the courage to drive 75 on the freeway, to jumping out of a plane. You gotta work up to different extremes.

I believe the trans community can get themselves into the zeitgeist but they gotta tone down the outrage and find a way to ease people into it. Im not saying its right or its fair, but the world aint fair so you gotta deal with it on its terms to get what you want.

"Force it en mass and point out the world didn't end after" seems to be the best way to go, if the real world is any indication. You're gonna have outrage merchants screaming about body snatching and making up fake bullshit science like "rapid onset gender disphoria" regardless. At least this way, it's in the open instead of a closet.

Also who the fuck doesnt accept female main characters? Besides B-Cell? Sales figures of tomb raider and horizon and hellblade would strongly disagree with that.

Who? Who doesn't accept women as protagonists? I don't think I've seen a game crash and burn because the game had a female protagonist.

The people that complain about SJWs and "real gamers" and junk like that. They're loud, but best they can usually do is splice together hit-piece youtube outrage videos and comb through Twitter.

You guys didn't hear the whining about nuCroft?

The only whining about croft i ever saw was that her character wasnt up to par. It was the same kind of whining i saw about Aloy being too attractive. Mostly nonsense and those games sold very well. So i dont know where you got the female protagonist hate from. As far as i can tell was that all came from some developer saying, "people dont buy girl-led games" but that was disproven and he was fired.

So shrug