Trans representation in gaming

Dreiko_v1legacy

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One of my favorite game chars of all time is trans. She's a female goddess in a male body. Amaterasu, from Okami, she's in shiranui's body, it being that of a male wolf. She's basically otherkin on top of being trans during her incarnation.



Somehow, I don't think this factual description would satisfy people who are interested in more trans representation, though. Somehow, just "being" trans is not enough, and unless a trans character does something uniquely trans-like and isn't just "one more character who just happens to be trans" the people invested in trans game characters will not be satisfied, and that is bad for gaming. All we should want is good chars and if a good char (amazing, actually) like Amaterasu is trans then you should shout with joy and not pretend it isn't true or significant. I have very little hope that your average generic pandering char will come close to Ammy's toe-nails in quality.
 

Wintermute_v1legacy

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Full disclosure: I'm not the biggest fan of "SJWs" or "Nazis", mostly I'm in the "Are you guys really arguing about this stupid shit?" group. But moving on.

At the risk of sounding like a huge asshole or transphobic or both (but really, I just don't care either way, you go and do whatever you want): would it be considered something positive if a trans character in a game, say a trans woman, kind of sounded like a dude? Or would that be considered offensive? Am I a transphobic asshole when I say that some trans ladies kind of sound like dudes?

I'm asking because to me at least, that would be a subtle way of adding a trans character in a game, right? Like any regular person, they're just there and they don't need to mention their gay/trans/straight adventures. I'm sure Twitter would be a shitshow of conspiracy theories about hidden SJW agendas and games turning kids gay and other stupid nonsense, but at least to me, having a trans lady voicing a trans character with interesting dialogue is a better idea than "HELLO PROTAGONIST MAN, MY NAME IS SO AND SO AND I'M A TRANS DESTROYER OF WORLDS FOR HIRE."
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Dreiko said:
One of my favorite game chars of all time is trans. She's a female goddess in a male body. Amaterasu, from Okami, she's in shiranui's body, it being that of a male wolf. She's basically otherkin on top of being trans during her incarnation.
Isn't Amaterasu technically possessing a statue though?
Is there a gender for "female in reanimated object", and what's it called?
 

Blood Brain Barrier

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BabyfartsMcgeezaks said:
I personally don't think every person on planet earth needs to represented in video games.
It would be nice if that could happen, but it would be nicer if people could feel good enough about themselves without needing to see their own particular set of personal characteristics represented in a game in order to feel validified as a person.
 

Saelune

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Silentpony said:
Saelune said:
Silentpony said:
Saelune said:
The problem is, like with gay character and women, gaming writers have no idea what makes them part of that group other than the most basic generic cutout tropes. They have to get across that someone is gay in only a brief dialogue exchange or a single scene, and its usually horrically awkward and never comes across as real conversation.

Player Character: Hello Shopkeep, what have you got to sell?

NPC: The best swords and armor a gay armorer can make here at the Two Gay Men and a Hammer Forge!

And no one talks like that! I forget which character it was, but in Mass Effect Andromeda you meet an NPC who within one or two dialogue choices says they're trans and their dead name is X, and I remember it really upsetting people because that's not how trans people talk. They talk like everyone else, and people don't talk about their sexuality or gender or sex life with complete strangers at the drop of a hat.

And the other problem is the label just becoming token, like when Wu tried to make Samus trans, apparently not realizing Samus is a silent protagonist who rarely takes her armor off in game, and that being trans would never enter into the story, the plot, the gameplay or dialogue choices, so how is it inclusive?

There should be more inclusive characters sure, but the AAA writers can't even write a single believable character, let alone one charged with such emotion in this political climate.
But that doesn't excuse all the people who are just bigots complaining. Just because some people have justified criticism, doesn't mean the bigots latching on are justified too.


I'd prefer them trying poorly than not trying at all.


As for the Samus thing...what? I never heard of that, and who/what is Wu?
I have an interesting question: What genre of game lends itself to LGBTQZZWER+ community in a way that actually changes the plot and/or gameplay, 'cause the only genre I can think of it dating sim. Like I can't see the next Halo having a trans Spartan and it feeling like anything other than awkwardly shoe-horned, or the next Far Cry having a lesbian bar tender. I mean how would it ever come up in conversation and plot in a way that doesn't sound horrifically awkward?

The Samus thing was Briana Wu I think. She's in the same vein as Anita, and she started a twitter campaign to force Nintendo to announce Samus was transgender and anyone who didn't go along with it was transphobic. Didn't work of course, but it was a pretty big stink.
Why does every single plot ever have a hetero romance in it? How often do they matter? How often do they help the plot? No, it is not always going to benefit the plot, but it hasn't stopped tons of other things that don't benefit the plot being shoe-horned in, atleast let it benefit society if not the plot.
 

Saelune

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Wintermute said:
Full disclosure: I'm not the biggest fan of "SJWs" or "Nazis", mostly I'm in the "Are you guys really arguing about this stupid shit?" group. But moving on.

At the risk of sounding like a huge asshole or transphobic or both (but really, I just don't care either way, you go and do whatever you want): would it be considered something positive if a trans character in a game, say a trans woman, kind of sounded like a dude? Or would that be considered offensive? Am I a transphobic asshole when I say that some trans ladies kind of sound like dudes?

I'm asking because to me at least, that would be a subtle way of adding a trans character in a game, right? Like any regular person, they're just there and they don't need to mention their gay/trans/straight adventures. I'm sure Twitter would be a shitshow of conspiracy theories about hidden SJW agendas and games turning kids gay and other stupid nonsense, but at least to me, having a trans lady voicing a trans character with interesting dialogue is a better idea than "HELLO PROTAGONIST MAN, MY NAME IS SO AND SO AND I'M A TRANS DESTROYER OF WORLDS FOR HIRE."
Well, I would not phrase it as 'sound like a dude' but I do not think it helps to have a biological woman voice transwomen characters. I did suggest this a couple posts up.
 

CriticalGaming

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Marik2 said:
Critical gaming got suspended again?
He can be a bit...uhh abrasive. But even i'm confused as to why that post got flagged.

Seems hard to have discussions on this forum when you have to walk on eggshells or risk being locked out forever.
 

Mcgeezaks

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Saelune said:
BabyfartsMcgeezaks said:
I personally don't think every person on planet earth needs to represented in video games.
Maybe, but LGBT people DO. As do women and non-whites (positively that is)
Well sure, they make up a pretty decent amount of the population/gamers (especially non-whites) so I don't mind that if it's implemented well and makes sense in the setting we're put in. I don't think extremely small parts of the population needs representation, I for an example don't think it's a must for us Swedes to be represented in games, it'd be nice sure but I'm not gonna get upset and demand that we need to be represented more in video games.

I gotta say though, TLOU 1 and 2 have a weirdly large amount of gay people for being in the apocalypse, there are like what 5 gay people so far?
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Saelune said:
I'm not saying it has to be romance, but I'm wondering outside of a romance genre when do conversations on gender ever come up?
Space Marines, we are about to drop onto the Chaos stronghold! Sound off for Gender check!
Or
Make it to the finish line in under 1 minute. Unless your transgender, then 45seconds

Like I'm struggling to understand what inclusivity looks like, meaning obvious inclusive-ness, in a medium, gaming, where gender never really chances gameplay. The Doom Marine would be no different black, white, Jewish, transgender, goat-man, werewolf, whathaveyou. Doom is the same game regardless. Likewise literally every other game outside of romance genre where what you have between your legs and what you want to do with it are central themes.

so what does inclusivity look like in gaming to the point the transgender community is satisfied and the gaming community at large can't say 'well you know the transgender label adds nothing to gameplay or story, so removing it would change absolutely nothing. meaning adding it meant absolutely nothing.'
 

Trunkage

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Alright... so me personally, I found Krem from DA:I a good way of dealing with trans people. Although I know a bunch of people were offended by her
 

Saelune

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Silentpony said:
Saelune said:
I'm not saying it has to be romance, but I'm wondering outside of a romance genre when do conversations on gender ever come up?
Space Marines, we are about to drop onto the Chaos stronghold! Sound off for Gender check!
Or
Make it to the finish line in under 1 minute. Unless your transgender, then 45seconds

Like I'm struggling to understand what inclusivity looks like, meaning obvious inclusive-ness, in a medium, gaming, where gender never really chances gameplay. The Doom Marine would be no different black, white, Jewish, transgender, goat-man, werewolf, whathaveyou. Doom is the same game regardless. Likewise literally every other game outside of romance genre where what you have between your legs and what you want to do with it are central themes.

so what does inclusivity look like in gaming to the point the transgender community is satisfied and the gaming community at large can't say 'well you know the transgender label adds nothing to gameplay or story, so removing it would change absolutely nothing. meaning adding it meant absolutely nothing.'
Well for one, I don't think every game needs a token trans character. I also think a lot of games could do well to just let you make your own character, and hell, don't limit stuff by gender. One thing I liked about Halo: Reach was making my own Spartan, and there are plenty of games where who the main character isn't that important, so might as well let us have fun with it.
 

Saelune

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trunkage said:
Alright... so me personally, I found Krem from DA:I a good way of dealing with trans people. Although I know a bunch of people were offended by her
Never played it, but reading their wiki page, they seem pretty good.
 

ex951753

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Fiz_The_Toaster said:
Let's keep it classy here, folks.

We're watching.
So what was so bad about Critical Gaming's post that warranted the warning/ban? I've reread the post 3 times and couldn't figure out what's wrong with it. I'd like to reply to the thread but don't know if I should since there seems to be some hidden rule about the topic?
 

Mcgeezaks

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ex951753 said:
Fiz_The_Toaster said:
Let's keep it classy here, folks.

We're watching.
So what was so bad about Critical Gaming's post that warranted the warning/ban? I've reread the post 3 times and couldn't figure out what's wrong with it. I'd like to reply to the thread but don't know if I should since there seems to be some hidden rule about the topic?
Around here you get a warning/ban if you look at someone funny.
 

Vendor-Lazarus

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As other people have mentioned already.. outside of romance options, what you do between the sheets has no bearing on your gaming killstreak.
Except to try to appease the un-appeaseable.

BabyfartsMcgeezaks said:
ex951753 said:
Fiz_The_Toaster said:
Let's keep it classy here, folks.

We're watching.
So what was so bad about Critical Gaming's post that warranted the warning/ban? I've reread the post 3 times and couldn't figure out what's wrong with it. I'd like to reply to the thread but don't know if I should since there seems to be some hidden rule about the topic?
Around here you get a warning/ban if you look at someone funny.
Someone, being a friend of the mods or in their political clique.

This thread do seem to come with Special terms and additional consideration.
White Frosty Silk cotton fabric gloves. et al.
 

The Lunatic

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I think forcing players to play as controversial or things they find undesirable is of limited benefit.

We're talking about a very tiny minority who's presence is of limited acceptance among the majority of the general populace, and even with the representation of these people, it's often not good enough and just draws complaints from both sides, as in Mass Effect Andromeda. And at that point I can't really say I see much benefit.
 

McElroy

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Eacaraxe said:
Now, if I can ask a honest question (and pardon my ignorance if this comes off as offensive, naive or insensitive,) but what exactly would a "good" trans character look like? I mean, unless their gender identity is integral to the core story (hence loaning itself to the very condescension and patronization you rightly alluded to in the quote above,) wouldn't that issue simply be tangential? I'm not saying it can't be done, but as someone not intimately familiar with issues of gender identity, I honestly don't know how devs would convey a trans person without a focus on that fact.
Well, one interesting way to go about it in a game like BGEE would be to have a companion that shows up wearing a Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity. If you try to take it off or remove curse, they give you a response that no, they like wearing it and/or give some excuses as to why the belt comes in handy for their occupation, and if you press the issue it pisses them off and they leave the party. If you adventure with the companion and build a rapport, they eventually open up and explain they never felt right as a (man or woman), they happened to learn one day about magic belts that change a person's sex, and they became an adventurer to find one. It's one of their most prized possessions because it finally lets them live the way that feels right to them, but on the other hand wearing a cursed belt is a pain in the ass, they're sick of it, and just don't know what else they can do.

The companion doesn't know about true/permanent polymorphing, can't afford the service, and/or never found a wizard powerful enough and willing to do it, thereby introducing a side quest to get the character permanently polymorphed so they can live as a (man or woman) free of the belt. If you go through their side quest, which may involve just getting money or doing a set of favors for a powerful wizard, they get their polymorph and ditch the belt.
This is a good start. Then give the player the option to convince this companion to drink a potion that makes them just fine living in their original body. Hell, make it require less effort too. That would keep the spirit of player freedom and choice; it's your game and how you choose to play it is up to you. Controversial, yes, but it would create discussion for sure.