Transexual gets ?35,000 compensation for workplace discrimination

[Korolev]

I mean really, why NOT just be polite to them? Is it REALLY that hard to memorize ONE new name, or to remember to address someone has He or She? Come on people, it's NOT THAT HARD. Doing immunohistological procedures, THAT'S hard. Learning a new name? That's NOT hard. And is saying She rather than He really that painful for you?

No, I get the reason why some refuse to address trans-gender people in the way they wish - it's hate. It's scorn. It's a bully boy tactic to say "HOW DARE YOU DO SOMETHING I FIND REPULSIVE!". It's a way to say "I don't respect you, I don't like you, I don't like what you did, and I'm going to make it known, TO YOU, that I find you contemptible". That's the real reason these people kept addressing her as a "he". There's no other reason - not a practical or economic reason - but purely a mean-spirited reason. They did not like what she did. And they wanted her to know it. They wanted her to feel the hate, the contempt, the disgust and the shame.

Such a simple thing: To address someone as He or She, or to remember a new name. Such a simple courtesy, and they couldn't even do that.

And to those who say "It's unnatural, it makes people feel uncomfortable", well, well, ya know, in the 50's and the 60's, many people said it was "unnatural" for blacks and whites to marry! They also said that "them Negros" made me "feel uncomfortable" if they sat at the front of the bus! Or shared a drinking fountain with the whites. You go back to the "good ole" days of the confederacy, and you had Southerners saying that it was "natural" that Blacks live under whites as slaves, that it was their "Natural" position in life.

You're saying this poor person makes you feel uncomfortable? Well, think about how you're making her feel. Supposed that never crossed your mind, huh? That she, too, is a human being?

All I ask is that you extend her ONE! BLOODY! COURTESY!

 

[MarkusWolfe]

Protect her from what, looking so disturbing in a dress that everyone asks she wears pants? Nothing can protect you from that.

Why is it disturbing?

Not her problem. Yours. You sort it out.

I don't know, I don't care, but the only way for me to sort it out is to get her out of my sight. However, since we're talking about a person instead of an inanimate object that I can't stand to look at, I'm going to politely see to it that she works somewhere I can't see her instead of burning it in a fire.

Did you ever consider other people's right not to have to deal with something they consider disturbing 5 days of the week?

 

[Still Life]

Protect her from what, looking so disturbing in a dress that everyone asks she wears pants? Nothing can protect you from that.

That's a circular argument; I've met plenty of unattractive women in customer service. You don't like it, then deal with it like a responsible and educated adult would.

Thank you for assuming I was ever referring to legality. It only furthers my opinion of you.

Are you going to sit in your chair of logical fallacies and tell me that a society doesn't create the laws that are upheld in the court system? And by extension, that you represent that collective consciousness of 'the world'?

Please, do. It will be funny.

 

[Still Life]

Protect her from what, looking so disturbing in a dress that everyone asks she wears pants? Nothing can protect you from that.

Why is it disturbing?

Not her problem. Yours. You sort it out.

For those wondering, you are not allowed to have serious sex-reassignment surgery until you live in role for at least a year, during which you are allowed minor hormone treatment. This means that you have to live full time in your new gender role, and can legally expect to be treated as a member of the sex you are transitioning to.

There is a legal responsibility on us as a society to treat the person in that position with respect, not get freaked out because your incredibly silly rules about who should wear what clothes are being broken.

Some people are that close-minded and foolish in their convictions. I applaud you for having an educated view on the matter.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I don't know, I don't care, but the only way for me to sort it out is to get her out of my sight. However, since we're talking about a person instead of an inanimate object that I can't stand to look at, I'm going to politely see to it that she works somewhere I can't see her instead of burning it in a fire.

Did you ever consider other people's right not to have to deal with something they consider disturbing 5 days of the week?

No because it's not a right..

If I'm scared of black people and can't walk past one without thinking they're going to rape me, society has no obligation to cater to my whims. Any company which makes allowances for my racism is actually breaking the law.

There is a very easy way for you to sort it out. Learn to deal with it, and if you can't do that then at least learn to fake it. If you can't see someone in the 'wrong' clothes without wanting to burn them, I pity you, but I have no sympathy. You have learned that response, it's your responsibility as a member of a society which includes trans people to unlearn it.

Your reaction is far more than disturbing to the person in question, but I guess your nice, healthy 'normal' right supersede theirs, right?

 

[Korolev]

I am not a transgendered person. I am lucky. I was born a male, and I'm happy with it.

These transgender people are not so lucky. They are born with a sex and gender they dislike. Why do they dislike it? I don't know. It could be a biological reason. It could be a cultural reason. It might be, as I like to think, a little bit of both.

However, it is painful for them.

Again, I have to ask you this question: You don't think transgendered people KNOW of the stigma and the hate and the discrimination they face? You think they aren't aware of it? They know. And they also feel that it's worth facing that hate than having to live in a manner they do not wish.

No one, NO ONE undergoes major reconstructive surgery for a lark. It's not just "a choice" they made - it's a deeply personal choice they feel compelled to make. There is NO BENEFIT to being a transgender individual. No benefit at all! You are more easily fired, you are far more likely to be assaulted by ignorant jackasses and the amount of scorn I'd imagine you'd have to put up with would be unbelievable. You think they want that? You think they WANT to feel unhappy with the gender they are born with?

It's almost like saying those with schizophrenia WANTED to be born with the condition. Not that I'm saying that Transgender issues are a mental illness, but I'm trying to link the fact that no one in their right mind WANTS to be born with a transgender identity. It confers NO BENEFIT. These people, for some reason, honestly feel that they should have a gender different from the one they have now.

There are two ways to go about this: You can either change the mind to fit the body or change the body to fit the mind. Changing the mind to fit the body pretty much NEVER works and has only caused much pain and misery. That's not helpful. Changing the body to fit the mind is a crude solution, but the only one we have now.

One day, science will find a way to properly change a man's body into a woman's or a woman's body into a man's. But, realistically speaking, that's probably, at best, over 100 years away. Until then, our primitive gender reassignment surgery is the best thing we have. It's an invasive procedure. It's an EXPENSIVE procedure. It's a PAINFUL procedure. It's not undertaken lightly. These transgender folks REALLY want the surgery done. They'd rather go through the pain and the taunts and the sneers than live as they do. That should speak VOLUMES about their feelings on the subject.

All I ask, is that we respect those feelings. How hard is that? It's a simple bloody courtesy! JUST.
REMEMBER.
ONE.
NEW.
NAME!

HOW! BLOODY! HARD! CAN! THAT! BE!

To all those who speak out against transgender people, or who sneer and laugh at this poor woman - you're all a bunch of insensitive jerks. You're not helping. You don't even want to understand the issue or think it through. You just let your knee-jerk emotional response dictate whatever you say. You can't even be polite.

No matter what you say about transgender people, the failure to SIMPLY BE CIVIL paints you in a worse light than your taunts and insults can ever paint them.

 

[Korolev]

*snip*

Take a breather. Who is this lady, your aunt or something?

Ignorance offends me. Rudeness offends me. The failure to simply be compassionate makes me... a little bit angry at times.

 

[LiquidGrape]

Good on her. She made a measured, calculated decision by informing her employers of her situation well before she personally adjusted to it, but in spite of their wanting her to remain with the company, they didn't respect that one fundamental right.

I can't see why any reasonable person would wish to discredit her for simply respecting herself.

 

[Still Life]

-

You cannot tell the difference between law and personal opinion? Well, that is certainly... odd. Perhaps you should speak to the pro-life and pro-choice people.

Your opinion doesn't exempt you from criticism.

 

[MarkusWolfe]

Protect her from what, looking so disturbing in a dress that everyone asks she wears pants? Nothing can protect you from that.

That's a circular argument; I've met plenty of unattractive women in customer service. You don't like it, then deal with it like a responsible and educated adult would.

Of course ugly women are in customer service. Ugly people are everywhere. Non-exceptional amounts of ugliness don't have much of an effect on people.

We're talking about disturbing people here, not ugly people. Though some ugly people are disturbing, and some disturbing people are ugly, not everyone who is ugly is disturbing and not everyone who is disturbing is ugly.

I don't know, I don't care, but the only way for me to sort it out is to get her out of my sight. However, since we're talking about a person instead of an inanimate object that I can't stand to look at, I'm going to politely see to it that she works somewhere I can't see her instead of burning it in a fire.

Did you ever consider other people's right not to have to deal with something they consider disturbing 5 days of the week?

No because it's not a right..

If I'm scared of black people and can't walk past one without thinking they're going to rape me, society has no obligation to cater to my whims. Any company which makes allowances for my racism is actually breaking the law.

There is a very easy way for you to sort it out. Learn to deal with it, and if you can't do that then at least learn to fake it. If you can't see someone in the 'wrong' clothes without wanting to burn them, I pity you, but I have no sympathy. You have learned that response, it's your responsibility as a member of a society which includes trans people to unlearn it.

Your reaction is far more than disturbing to the person in question, but I guess your nice, healthy 'normal' right supersede theirs, right?

I never said I wanted to burn anyone. YOU made that assumption.

You also made the assumption that if you're so traumatized that you can't walk past a black guy without freaking out, you're going to be able to leave your house to get a job in the first place. The racial profiles of populations are getting mixed up all over the world, and I'm glad to see it.

Furthermore, why isn't 'make it go away' a valid way of dealing with it? Provided that I don't screw over the employee in the process, it's a win-win situation, is it not? She keeps her job, and I get her out of my sight.

 

[Gingerman]

Good for her, hopefully that'll open the way for more equal rights for transgendered people and will teach companies to pay more attention to their employee's needs.

Not necessarily, it just means you need to learn what 'gender' means.

I got into a wee heated discussion last time I raised my opinion, mostly due to majorly poor wording on my part but hopefully this time it'll be different.

By Social Gender : Yes she's a woman
By Legal Gender: Yes she's a woman
If by appearence(if post op): Yes she's a woman
By brain chemsitry: Yes she's a woman (I think, haven't looked to deep into that area)
By biological Gender: She's a man I.e her "assigned sex" from birth

Now personally and feel free to call me a bigot all you want isn't going to change a thing. I view this person biologically male and therefore a part of me will always view them as 1/5 male and 4/5 female in a manner of speaking.

But due to this 1/5 I could maybe not ever view this person as a sexual partner as a part of me will see them as male and I sadly (and I do mean that) dont swing both ways.

Now I hope someone doesn't jump onto this post and nitpick my words to make it seem as if I see them as unequal or bad people. They're just people who's brain does not work in the "normal" fashion just in the same way mine does not due to my Aspergers, it does make them different but different doesn't always mean bad.

 

[icaritos]

If you believe looks have nothing to do with how people interact with each other than you are incredibly naive, if i were to go to work dressed like a bum i would probably be fired.

This transsexual does not dress like a 'bum', but takes pride in their identity and work. This point is null.

This is not a matter of her gender

The facts of the case state that this is specifically a matter of gender. This person identifies as female and being asked to play two split gender roles for the sake of the company is not only unethical and to the detriment of the transsexual individual, but also discriminatory.

Gender does in fact play a part in a person identity. That is the primary reason why transgender feel like going through the whole process in the first place, because they don't associate with their original gender.

If we place that into perspective we have to consider that the company originally hired a male called Dr. X for the job. How is it fair that the company is now forced to allow the exact same position for a female named Ms. Y.

The point you are missing here is that they tried to relocate her to a different area, but when refused they were forced to handle out an ultimatum. The fact of the matter is that her new identity wasn't suitable for keeping relations with customers, which gender acceptance is a mystery at best, pure bigotry at worst.

When i worked as a sort of spokesperson for a small store i was required to come dressed nicely, presentable and generally visually appealing, and i understand why it would be so. Regardless of my gender (im male by the way) if i decided to grow boobs, or sport a neck-beard i would most likely have been fired or relocated, as i would no longer be the person they originally hired for the job. Of course if this was a job that didn't require any relationship with customers (an accountant for example, or some desk job) than i would have no qualms with her complaints, and probably suggest bigger compensation.

 

[Snake Plissken]

No, I get the reason why some refuse to address trans-gender people in the way they wish - it's hate. It's scorn. It's a bully boy tactic to say "HOW DARE YOU DO SOMETHING I FIND REPULSIVE!". It's a way to say "I don't respect you, I don't like you, I don't like what you did, and I'm going to make it known, TO YOU, that I find you contemptible". That's the real reason these people kept addressing her as a "he". There's no other reason - not a practical or economic reason - but purely a mean-spirited reason. They did not like what she did. And they wanted her to know it. They wanted her to feel the hate, the contempt, the disgust and the shame.

I feel that your blanket statement about WHY people address transgendered people the way they do to be a little...childish.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, some people just get confused and don't know what someone wants to be referred to as?
I'm not trying to make a personal attack on you or anything, but it's a legitimate reason to address someone incorrectly.

I work with a transgendered person (biologically male, identifies as female). I had known...uh...her...for a few years prior to working with her, but she had never told me about her lifestyle. Since she didn't dress in her female attire at work and used her male birth name at work (as to not offend customers or drive away business), I had no way of knowing. Even though I know now, she still dresses in male attire and uses her birth name. She has never explicitly expressed to me how she wants ME to identify her. This is actually the first time that I have ever even mentioned her as a "her". Most of the time, I just base my reference on appearance. If she is actively trying to be portrayed as a female, I'll use her. If not, I'll use him. She's never corrected me, so I assume some people are more sensitive to it than others.
I'm not actively trying to offend this person, I don't hate this person, I respect this person, and we've been good friends for a couple of years. We have tons of stuff in common, and we enjoy each others company. Just because someone makes a mistake or is confused about something doesn't mean that they are hateful. It just means that they are confused. Perhaps some do it to be hateful; perhaps even most. But I don't and I'm not terribly certain that this particular company did either.

 

[Terminal Blue]

We're talking about disturbing people here, not ugly people. Though some ugly people are disturbing, and some disturbing people are ugly, not everyone who is ugly is disturbing and not everyone who is disturbing is ugly.

Your reaction is what makes it 'disturbing', not the person in question.

Being 'disturbed' because of silly clothing rules is silly. Society has every right to tell you to get the fuck over it.

I never said I wanted to burn anyone. YOU made that assumption.

I'm going to politely see to it that she works somewhere I can't see her instead of burning it in a fire.

^ Implying your first reaction when encountering something which disturbs you in this way is to burn it, and only the fact that it's a human being prevents you from doing so.

You also made the assumption that if you're so traumatized that you can't walk past a black guy without freaking out, you're going to be able to leave your house to get a job in the first place. The racial profiles of populations are getting mixed up all over the world, and I'm glad to see it.

Plenty of racists get jobs. They just learn (rightly) to shut the fuck up rather than pretending the rest of society shares their ridiculous opinions.

Furthermore, why isn't 'make it go away' a valid way of dealing with it? Provided that I don't screw over the employee in the process, it's a win-win situation, is it not? She keeps her job, and I get her out of my sight.

Because 'it' is a person, and you are compromising their career to cater to your prejudice. 'Oh, but they get to keep their job'.. Lucky them! That's pretty good for a freak isn't it? Who knows, in five years when you've had time to think about it maybe they can have a special paper bag to put over their head and you'll let them come into the office for a few minutes.

Seriously, we're talking about people wearing the 'wrong' clothes, not out of simple perversity, but because they have legally changed gender (not that I even oppose doing it out of perversity). What exactly is your problem. Why does it disturb you? You've not given any kind of valid reason beyond 'it does'.

 

[Hecate]

Consider this, for all the guys out there. Supposed your boss decided that it was dress code now that everyone, guys and girls alike, had to wear skirts and heels. How well do you think that would go over. And even more so, supposed it wasn't everyone, but just YOU who they told have to crossdress. Nobody else in the company, just you. How would you feel about that? How would you feel about it four months down the road? Because that is what happened here.

Not a valid comparison. Your point only holds if the guys in question had already been dressing in skirts and heels for what was probably years before this, and decided to make a change. She WAS dressing as a man for quite a while before this. They were asking her to continue something she had done for years. No, it wasn't as true to her gender identity, but it was a professional move.

I realize the trials and hardships that transgendered people go through, and I wouldn't wish them on anyone, but I find it very, very hard to sympathize with the majority of them lately. So many of the ones I've encountered act like self-entitled whiners who want everything changed just for them because they're special snowflakes and the world doesn't cater to them enough. There was a huge uproar on an art site I frequent because there was no option not to list your gender and the transgendered people were getting upset over it suddenly, after it had been that way for *years* and plenty of people had dealt with it until then.

I think it's ridiculous that she sued them, personally. As a woman, if someone asked me to wear a suit to work, I would gladly do it. Most women dress in more gender-neutral clothing, anyway. This person was just being extreme about it, in my opinion.
I realize the name issue is a bit touchy, but it was only for working with clients. If she didn't want to make sacrifices, she could have walked away. Most people, if they want a job position bad enough, will make sacrifices; working grueling overtime, taking classes to learn new programs, cancelling personal dates that had been set. Going by a different name JUST when around clients doesn't seem like such a horrible sacrifice, especially when it's a name they've already lived with for 50 years.

 

[Iwana Humpalot]

Haha, maybe i should get a job and pretend to be a transexual and then sue them if they fire me.. CYA! I'M GOING TO GET RICH!

OT: Good for her.. or him