Transexual gets ?35,000 compensation for workplace discrimination

[Celtic_Kerr]

While yes, transgenders should be treated fairly, companies have to tip toe through the tulips, daisies, daffodils, roses, and any other form of flora that you can imagine, or risk the wrath of discrimination

If you think that letting her act her gender is somehow Excessively PC you're either stupid or a bigot.

I'm neither actually. What I'm saying is that companies must take many considerations into account. The comfort of their clients, employees, etc is one of them. The whole issues MIGHT have stemmed from co-workers complaining that they don't feel comfortable working around a masculine looking individual in a dress (this is assuming Louise looks masculine), or something along those lines. A supervisor is not allowed to ignore these complaints if they come in quantity, and is forced to try and find SOME form of medium. That medium might not always look PC in the public's eye.

To the public, if co-workers say they don't feel comfortable because the person is a transsexual, the company is seen as discriminatory and the manager left in the middle of it is "to blame"

These cases are usually incredibly difficult on the manager involved in the middle, and when a minority of some form is on one side and a diversity is on the other, it can be easy to shout prejudice. I don't know all the facts, so I'm not passing judgment. As I've mentioned in quite a few of my posts, my issue is with the 35,000 euro she sued for to make her statement when she could have easily sued for a decent settlement severance and made her voice heard all the same.

Often times companies are happy to give such severances, but there's no talk about if that happened or not.

I would ask that you read into my posts a little more before simply personally attacking my opinions falsely

 

[Celtic_Kerr]

I think she/he put the company in a very difficult position and had I been the manager I would have been bricking it trying to work out how to get rid of her/him so as to avoid this very thing.

It's not hard, consult her about what she feels the company could do. Suggest, she work at home, take medical leave till she fully transitions, get her input and go from there. you don't just ignore everything and keep forcing her to act like a man and then go "well she was making our clients uncomfortable, it's her fault she got fired not ours."

Ah, and in regards to this, they did ask her to go home for a while, she got fed up after 4 months and decided to leave. Once again, the story doesn't tell what happened between her deciding to leave and that she didn't mind coming out as a transsexual to make her voice heard, so I can't pass judgment

 

[Terminal Blue]

So when a mentally ill person claims to be the Queen of England we should treat them as such?

You're wrong, it is a very complicated issue.

A slightly sick comparison there..

You're aware no doubt that until quite recently people displaying traits we would refer to as transgendered would be treated as mentally ill and could be subject to a range of invasive treatments?

A person who claims to be the queen lacks the social authority to back it up. A person who changes their gender through the appropriate legal means has changed their gender. It's really not remotely complicated.

Off topic, I wouldn't call myself transgendered, but I'm a very good crossdresser. Not the best I know, but almost. I've passed for a woman many many times, heck, I've passed for a woman without wearing 'female' clothing. You know what I learned from that.. that none of you look at someone and instantly see whether they have a cock.

Biological sex doesn't exist in the social world.. every day when you put on clothes you're creating and defining your own gender. The only difference between you and an FtM transexual is that you have a dick somewhere under your clothes. But noone sees that dick, they just see the clothes.

Dealing with someone who is transexual is merely a case of buying into the illusion as you would with any other human being. It's choosing not to think 'OMG you have a dick!' or 'OMG you don't have a dick!' and focusing totally on the social projection. Because that's all you ever go on with anyone else anyway.

 

[Dollors]

Most of you are the worse kind of people and your opinions smell terrible.

"Don't want to be discriminated against? Don't get a sex change."

Shut up.

 

[Jonabob87]

So when a mentally ill person claims to be the Queen of England we should treat them as such?

You're wrong, it is a very complicated issue.

A slightly sick comparison there..

You're aware no doubt that until quite recently people displaying traits we would refer to as transgendered would be treated as mentally ill and could be subject to a range of invasive treatments?

A person who claims to be the queen lacks the social authority to back it up. A person who changes their gender through the appropriate legal means has changed their gender. It's really not remotely complicated.

Off topic, I wouldn't call myself transgendered, but I'm a very good crossdresser. Not the best I know, but almost. I've passed for a woman many many times, heck, I've passed for a woman without wearing 'female' clothing. You know what I learned from that.. that none of you look at someone and instantly see whether they have a cock.

Biological sex doesn't exist in the social world.. every day when you put on clothes you're creating and defining your own gender. The only difference between you and an FtM transexual is that you have a dick somewhere under your clothes. But noone sees that dick, they just see the clothes.

Dealing with someone who is transexual is merely a case of buying into the illusion as you would with any other human being. It's choosing not to think 'OMG you have a dick!' or 'OMG you don't have a dick!' and focusing totally on the social projection. Because that's all you ever go on with anyone else anyway.

Just because someone has "legally" changed their gender makes no difference to genetic and biological facts, they are born a gender and they will die that gender. Let's not forget that the mentally ill still often claim they wish to change sex (I mean mentally ill in other more severe ways). That doesn't make it a good idea, it's rarely a good idea to force your body to do something it doesn't want to do.

There are many differences between me and a FtM, for example I was born a male, have a male bone structure and vocal range. I also have an entirely different body shape from a female, which an FtM wouldn't be able to falsify except with an incredible amount of surgery (and even then). Last but not least a male brain and a female brain work differently, neither better than the other. This isn't to do with what either side thinks about, but the manner in which they go about thinking. It's a subtle difference, but it's a difference.

Thanks for assuming I go around throwing my beliefs in peoples faces. We're on a thread that begs discussion, I bring my thoughts to the table, it's simple yes?

Social projection? If you mean faking your personality then no, I don't settle for a social projection and neither should you.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Just because someone has "legally" changed their gender makes no difference to genetic and biological facts, they are born a gender and they will die that gender. Let's not forget that the mentally ill still often claim they wish to change sex (I mean mentally ill in other more severe ways). That doesn't make it a good idea, it's rarely a good idea to force your body to do something it doesn't want to do.

You're being incredibly offensive based on utter ignorance. For one, clear up your terminology.

Chromosomal Sex - The configuration of a persons chromosomes.
Biological Sex (or just 'Sex') - An attribute assigned after birth based on examination of a person's genitals.
Gender - The social organization of males and females.

None of these things has any intrinsic, essential relationship with either of the others. It's perfectly possible, though quite rare, for someone with an XY chromosome to be assigned as female based on genital appearance. It's also incredibly common (relative to other 'birth defects', since that what it's classed as) for sex organs to be indeterminate upon birth. Similarly, it's perfectly possible for someone to have been assigned a male sex yet to socially identify as a woman. Stop being incredibly narrow minded.

As for 'brains working differently'. There's very little convincingly universal proof beyond simple generalizations. Everyone's brains work slightly differently. The same goes for bone structure, vocal range, body type. You cannot make universal statements from generalizations.

This is fairly common knowledge now even in the natural sciences.

Social projection? If you mean faking your personality then no, I don't settle for a social projection and neither should you.

I hope that X-ray vision is working out for you.

 

[Jonabob87]

Just because someone has "legally" changed their gender makes no difference to genetic and biological facts, they are born a gender and they will die that gender. Let's not forget that the mentally ill still often claim they wish to change sex (I mean mentally ill in other more severe ways). That doesn't make it a good idea, it's rarely a good idea to force your body to do something it doesn't want to do.

You're being incredibly offensive based on utter ignorance. For one, clear up your terminology.

Chromosomal Sex - The configuration of a persons chromosomes.
Biological Sex (or just 'Sex') - An attribute assigned after birth based on examination of a person's genitals.
Gender - The social organization of males and females.

None of these things has any intrinsic, essential relationship with either of the others. It's perfectly possible, though quite rare, for someone with an XY chromosome to be assigned as female based on genital appearance. It's also incredibly common (relative to other 'birth defects', since that what it's classed as) for sex organs to be indeterminate upon birth. Similarly, it's perfectly possible for someone to have been assigned a male sex yet to socially identify as a woman. Stop being incredibly narrow minded.

As for 'brains working differently'. There's very little convincingly universal proof beyond simple generalizations. Everyone's brains work slightly differently. The same goes for bone structure, vocal range, body type. You cannot make universal statements from generalizations.

This is fairly common knowledge now even in the natural sciences.

Social projection? If you mean faking your personality then no, I don't settle for a social projection and neither should you.

I hope that X-ray vision is working out for you.

How can I clear up terminology I didn't use? I'm referring to biological sex and in any case, a body deviating from it's Chromosomal make-up is most definitely a defect.

That is a birth defect, and no biological gender is linked to more than just what your parts look like. Try hormones and various other chemicals that flow around your body. It has been touched upon that gender confusion (or whatever you want to call it) can be linked to the effect of sex hormones on a developing brain. Sounds like a defect to me.

On the topic of the vast difference between a male body and a female body I direct you to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_shape

Birth defects are incredibly common, I myself was born with an extra thumb on each hand. They were amputated, I now have the normal amount of digits. If someone is born with indeterminate gender it's obviously more complex but I refer you to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John/Joan_case

It may be bad form quoting wikipedia but I'm busy.

 

[C14N]

I'm no doubt horribly misinformed and ignorant but I though being transgendered meant you decided to have a sex change? However, this is clearly wrong because the court ruled it a "medical condition". So what is it exactly?

It is both. To be transsexual (I prefer transgender, but that's more a blanket term for any gender variance) is to have a medical condition commonly referred to as Gender Identity Disorder. Which is to say that your (mental, spiritual) gender does not match your (physical) sex. GID is listed in medical journals and accepted as a condition. The recommended treatment of someone who is diagnosed with GID is therapy sessions, a regime of hormone treatments to help the body physically transition and possible gender reassignment surgery, commonly known as a 'sex change operation'.

People don't just wake up one day and go 'Oh! Well, I'm tired of being a man, I think I'll have a go at being a woman for a while.' and that's it. People are born as transsexual, the reasons why aren't exactly known. Brain scans and post mortem exams show that the brain structure of a transsexual person much more closely matches their gender than their physical sex.

A common theory as to why this happens is that the brain and body develop at different times in the mother's womb. If the wrong hormone signals are sent at certain times, the fetus could be told 'Okay, make the brain female' and then later on 'okay, make the body male'. Generally this leads to a lifetime of confusion, and self doubt, because our bodies and society says one thing, but our minds say another. The only legitimate and effective treatment found for this is to bring the body as close as possible in line with what the mind says.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[nekoali]

I'm no doubt horribly misinformed and ignorant but I though being transgendered meant you decided to have a sex change? However, this is clearly wrong because the court ruled it a "medical condition". So what is it exactly?

It is both. To be transsexual (I prefer transgender, but that's more a blanket term for any gender variance) is to have a medical condition commonly referred to as Gender Identity Disorder. Which is to say that your (mental, spiritual) gender does not match your (physical) sex. GID is listed in medical journals and accepted as a condition. The recommended treatment of someone who is diagnosed with GID is therapy sessions, a regime of hormone treatments to help the body physically transition and possible gender reassignment surgery, commonly known as a 'sex change operation'.

People don't just wake up one day and go 'Oh! Well, I'm tired of being a man, I think I'll have a go at being a woman for a while.' and that's it. People are born as transsexual, the reasons why aren't exactly known. Brain scans and post mortem exams show that the brain structure of a transsexual person much more closely matches their gender than their physical sex.

A common theory as to why this happens is that the brain and body develop at different times in the mother's womb. If the wrong hormone signals are sent at certain times, the fetus could be told 'Okay, make the brain female' and then later on 'okay, make the body male'. Generally this leads to a lifetime of confusion, and self doubt, because our bodies and society says one thing, but our minds say another. The only legitimate and effective treatment found for this is to bring the body as close as possible in line with what the mind says.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me.

I'm happy to. I try to spread accurate information and hope to allow for better understand of the transgender condition and LGBT issues when I can. Lack of information, or worse false or incomplete information is the worst problem that we face.

 

[Celtic_Kerr]

AS explained in a previous post, say her name was Hermon. Hermon Hannon, before the change. Now if Herman Change their name to Louise, the company needs to reflect this, paperwork. Rather than do this, they asked if she could use her male name while working with outside agents. Why? Because Hermon Hannon had that position, not Louise Hannon. Mrs. Hannon could have said "No, I will not do this for you, this is my name now" but she went with it.

The sad part in this case is that the company was attempting to make concessions that worked with its clients, and Louise was against those, but when with them for a time anyways, then decided NO!

Now say I get a job as an accountant. I am told I need to wear a suit and be presentable in said suit to all outside clients. I tell my boss "Look, I love t-shirts, I hate suits. I'll leave" and they ask me to stay, saying "You can wear a t-shirt, as long as you are presentable to outside clients in a suit and tie" so I agree for a while.

Now my co-workers are getting wierded out. My boss says he's got complaints. People aren't comfortable around me as I don't wear a suit around the office in a professional environment. I can stay with the company if I work from home. I agree and go home. After 4 months I decide FUCK THIS and sue the company.

This is the EXACT same circumstance without me being transgendered on it. I don't like suits, she wants to be a woman. That's the only difference. No one's rights are being stepped on any more than the other, but people would call me absurd and fight for her.

The article doesn't give all the information though, so you have no idea what was said between them or the actual reason for why she was sent home, just what was decided. Doesn't mean it's the facts, but this is what speculation tells me

The fact that you just compared clothing preference to transgendered people makes me sick.

Then you didn't look into it deep enough, nor did you read my other posts where I clearly explain that it's not about the clothing or wanting to be seen as a man, a woman, or wanting the world the acknowledge that you have green skin. The fact of the matter is that she agreed to meet outside contacts in man's clothing, and then said it was terrifying to find out how she would handle it, but she agreed to for a while. She then agreed to go home for a while until things blew over, but then changed her mind and decided that she didn't want to agree to it anymore.

Now I've stated my case more than clearly if you'll look at my other posts rather than judge me and say I make you sick.

I've mentioned that the post only explains that she decided she didn't want to stay home anymore and BLAMO! moves onto her willingness to expose herself in order to make her voice heard. I'll admit:

I don't know if she confronted the boss before suing.
I don't know if the boss offered other reasonable accommodations.
I don't know if she was offered severance.
I don't know if she declined a severance.
I don't know if she simply sued without confronting.
The story doesn't explain it.

The post says she agreed to go home, said "Fuck that shit" and then won the case. Nothing in between.

You'll also notice by reading my post that my issue with the post is that she sued them for 35,000 euros when I'm willing to bet that the boss most likely offered severance, but I can't be sure. The majority of court cases settle before court even hits because then it goes public and costs sky rocket. Maybe the company was willing to settle, and she refused the settlement. She could have easily made her statement without a figure anywhere near 35,000 euros.

Read before you judge

 

[standokan]

Now THAT would be a good argument to tell your parents if you want to be a transvestite.

 

[tigermilk]

brb, getting a vagina surgically implanted. Gotta get that money!

You must have a pretty strong stomach (or really need the money). I am pretty sure they cut the penis down the middle then invert it. I'm doing a reverse cowboy (squeezing my legs together, not to be mistaken for the reverse cowgirl) just thinking about it.