Tropes vs. Women Protagonists

[Monsterfurby]

You know, I don't dislike her or her work. I'm sure there's a place for that and plenty of people can stroke their ego saying "I agree" or "I disagree" [/putting it mildly].

But I bloody hate extremists. I hate people who will never leave their opinion and settle for a compromise, I hate people who censor opposition and cannot find it in themselves to stand above their narrow world view and judge things from an objective and CONSTRUCTIVE standpoint.

And here, everybody in this debate loses. Starting from Sarkeesian herself, to all her obnoxious enemies, including her just as obnoxious supporters. What the world needs is not feminism, it's not chauvinism. It's not some editorial ragepiece on reversing gender inequality.

No, what we need is an objective view of things, and the ability to criticise in a constructive manner.

And that is why I find this entire debate extremely unsettling. Nothing about this deserves any attention. Please, hand the mike and soapbox over to someone reasonable. As if...

 

[rembrandtqeinstein]

I'm just saying there are a lot of women who also enjoy a good power fantasy, and they want to play too.

Female power fantasy is different than male power fantasy. They don't work in the same game. In the female power fantasy she is able to manipulate outcomes without ever having to take risk or responsibility. For example an average girl is a picked on loner, then she finds an old spellbook that gives her telekinetic powers. So she uses the powers without telling anyone to subtly ruin the lives of the girls who picked on her, get the hot guy, and become the most popular.

The male version of the same story is [link http="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1706593/"]Chronicle[/link] and plays a lot differently.

For an explanation of some of the behavioral differences between men and women see this video, it is incredibly insightful and highly recommended.

 

[grigjd3]

So, I'd grant that Mirror's Edge wasn't as easy as most would have liked, but I found it a particularly good game made more so by the feminine aspects shown by the character Faith. She came across to me like my older sister and I was thus able to connect to the character's motivation. Granted, this is a guy's opinion and a woman might see it differently, but I think that game got a terrible rap only because the reviewing industry is so speed-oriented, it leads to an extremely near-sighted review process.

 

[Seneschal]

*Snippity*

Roleplay games have come a long way when it comes to main characters. I remember in Baldur's Gate being mildly irritated that they added to the gender description for female "easily the equals of their male counterparts". Possibly not quoted exactly. In these games the female choice is secondary. You select to change from the male auto-pick in every one that I've played. If there is promotional material it's never been automatically with the female protagonist. There was a lot of fuss around the box art for ME3 portraying FemShep rather than .. Shep? MaleShep? And you could always choose to go back to MaleShep if that was too threatening, it's on the other side of the cover. In fact, you have to change the cover yourself to display FemShep. Oh, and the General Public got to pick how she looked! Those threads on Facebook revolved around "I LIKE THIS ONE BECAUSE SHE'S HOTTER". It's still nice to have the choice, yes. It's not perfect however.

Also, Joss Whedon spent some time describing how his author-projection into his work is always female when I heard him speak once. He writes as though he's Buffy, as though he's River, or Echo. That's probably different in other shows which aren't female-based. I think it works really well, love the guy.


To Sir Young; I have seen several blog posts looking at female protagonists in games, but never anything mainstream. They were often looking at both gender and race. One of the characters who does come up a lot in that context is Portal's Chell. She's a Latino woman who's not really sexualised at all in comparison to the norm.

Having recently replayed Baldur's Gate, I must admit I was stumped as well by that part. It reminds me of the first Star Trek episode, that tried so hard not to be sexist (e.g. the first officer is a female), but it was still a product of its time (e.g. the captain gets irritated by a bumbling female yeoman, remarking how "he's not used to females on the bridge" (and reassures his first officer with an "Oh, you're different, Number One")). So, essentially, its heart was in the right place, as was with Baldur's Gate. Besides, intention is what matters, right?

I should also point out that such a statement is often repeated in all D&D-related publications, including the Forgotten Realms setting material that BG was based on - since it takes place in a medieval fantasy world, the editors thought it necessary to point out that gender is a non-issue in their setting, since it would ruin the fun to stick to historically accurate gender limitations. The same is true for Dragon Age, except that, unlike BG, it doesn't assume the male gender is "default", but still feels the need to point out how females aren't closed-off from any professions in Ferelden, even if they may not be predominant.

 

[Labyrinth]

*snip*

I do believe it's done with the best of intention. There are always issues in narratives of whether you use an accurate depiction, in which case people will be unsure if you're doing it for accuracy or because of actual sexism; or if you do something like that to point out that you're conscious of the issues, but it comes across as a bit condescending.

There's no perfect way to go because showing a gender utopia would not necessarily be as compelling as showing inequality, if it's addressed. And there are always problems of coming across as preachy.

Bah, Humbug.

 

[Seneschal]

*snip*

I do believe it's done with the best of intention. There are always issues in narratives of whether you use an accurate depiction, in which case people will be unsure if you're doing it for accuracy or because of actual sexism; or if you do something like that to point out that you're conscious of the issues, but it comes across as a bit condescending.

There's no perfect way to go because showing a gender utopia would not necessarily be as compelling as showing inequality, if it's addressed. And there are always problems of coming across as preachy.

Bah, Humbug.

It can't actually be avoided in this medium. Hamhandedly dumping an implausible gender utopia on the audience in a film will raise eyebrows, because we need the protagonist to have something oppressing them, giving them a reason to take up arms. But we begin playing a game with different assumptions, namely that we have as much agency as possible. We are willing to surrender agency if that itself is a plot point (e.g. the famous BioShock bit), but generally we feel insulted if the game doesn't let us do something, or if it doesn't hide that fact from us (e.g. we don't get mad at cliffs and fences obstructing our way out of the map, but invisible walls frustrate us).

The same goes for gender options - we can watch Game of Thrones and not be offended at the limited roles of female characters (because the sexism is present, crucial to the story, and well-addressed), but if BioWare implemented the same sexism in the Dragon Age character creation process (as if they hadn't been inspired by GRRM enough), that would set us off, because we are willing to tolerate some implausibility and handwaving as long as we get to play.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

That's the problem you see we can't enjoy the gameplay because we are being asked to play in the art style equivalent of a seedy strip club.

If the seedy strip club wasn't there then we would enjoy the gameplay so much more...

snip

'female hypoagency' is a load of rubbish mainly because it assumes that some things belong to men, like gaming, as default. Which just isn't the case. Gaming doesn't belong to men as much as books or voting.

I've been gaming longer than a lot of guys who claim this bullshit is fact have been alive. Also I find your idea of female power fantasy extremely sexist.

In fact I've had it up to here with 15 year old COD brodudes telling my opinion isn't welcome in a hobby I have been a part of for 25 years. How about they just sod off. Seriously.

 

[Seneschal]

snip

That's the problem you see we can't enjoy the gameplay because we are being asked to play in the art style equivalent of a seedy strip club.

If the seedy strip club wasn't there then we would enjoy the gameplay so much more...

snip

'female hypoagency' is a load of rubbish mainly because it assumes that some things belong to men, like gaming, as default. Which just isn't the case. Gaming doesn't belong to men as much as books or voting.

I've been gaming longer than a lot of guys who claim this bullshit is fact have been alive. Also I find your idea of female power fantasy extremely sexist.

In fact I've had it up to here with 15 year old COD brodudes telling my opinion isn't welcome in a hobby I have been a part of for 25 years. How about they just sod off. Seriously.

The video isn't about that. It merely postulates that certain traits (acting-by-proxy in females; taking charge and risks in males) were evolutionarily selected for and then passed down in early human history, for very simple reasons (female reproduction requires a healthy body for a sustained amount of time, which forces women to be careful, while men simply need to be proactive to spread their genes).

That doesn't justify the "COD brodudes", nor does it make the hobby "theirs". The video never states that all women should have the same power fantasy of manipulating people from behind the curtain, but it does offer an explanation as to why Charmed and The Craft are female-oriented, while 24 is male-oriented, and not the other way around.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

It's a stereotype though and stereotypes never do anyone any good.

Women aren't trying to 'invade male spaces' because they are not 'male spaces' to begin with they belong to everyone. I don't have a go at bronies for watching and influencing My Little Pony just because 'women watched it first' it's fucking ridiculous.

 

[the7ofswords]

"There's room for everyone in this hobby, and we can do better than we're doing now."

"Women want to play too."

"These are all good questions, and they don't have simple answers. More importantly, they can really only be answered by talking to women - preferably in a safe forum away from the screaming murlocs."


Those three statements right there sum it all up nicely.


Now, Sarkeesian has her own focus, sure, but she has every right to focus on the specific factors that interest her. Personally, I'm interested to see what she has to say in the end. The fact that so many people threw such a fit shows that some people must feel threatened by her questions. If someone decided to do a study on the effects and treatment of, oh ... let's say skin cancer, would it be normal for people researching heart disease or breast cancer to throw a fit, because they don't feel skin cancer should be a topic of research until their pet disease had enough research money first?

And the fact that so many people came out in support, and donated far more than she needed or even asked for doesn't prove some kind of malicious intent on her part?quite the contrary. It proves that that her topic of interest has really struck a chord with a lot of people.

I agree that there aren't nearly enough good female protagonists or antagonists or even characters in general in video games or movies or TV shows. Part of that is just due to unfamiliarity, ignorance, laziness and just lack of interest on the part of content creators. The solution is to get more women involved in the creation process.

We are seeing the beginnings of this now, so despite the odd backlash, I think this situation really IS going to get better over time. There is plenty of room for all kinds of media, aimed at many different tastes without having any particular segment feeling left out.

 

[Legion]

snip

It's a stereotype though and stereotypes never do anyone any good.

Women aren't trying to 'invade male spaces' because they are not 'male spaces' to begin with they belong to everyone. I don't have a go at bronies for watching and influencing My Little Pony just because 'women watched it first' it's fucking ridiculous.

I do not disagree with you, but most of the women I know would. Pretty much every female I know thinks gaming is a 'guys' thing, and that it's one of those things you just roll your eyes at and hope they get over it.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

It's a stereotype though and stereotypes never do anyone any good.

Women aren't trying to 'invade male spaces' because they are not 'male spaces' to begin with they belong to everyone. I don't have a go at bronies for watching and influencing My Little Pony just because 'women watched it first' it's fucking ridiculous.

I do not disagree with you, but most of the women I know would. Pretty much every female I know thinks gaming is a 'guys' thing, and that it's one of those things you just roll your eyes at and hope they get over it.

Then the females you know are lame and also boring

 

[Seneschal]

snip

It's a stereotype though and stereotypes never do anyone any good.

Funny thing to say after generalizing male gamers as "CoD brodudes". And yes, you did; according to you, the main reason why "CoD brodudes" are noxious to females in gaming is supposedly their masculinity, which is inherently intolerant of femininity. However, this ignores the fact that the few brodudes that you criticise treat other males equally bad, essentially meaning that you mistake their general rudeness for misogyny in gamer culture as a whole. Just how many screaming 15-year-olds did you encounter in comparison to the actual number of gamers you know of? Have they damaged you in any important way? Did you attribute their rudeness to their penises immediately, or after you had ignored the fact that they're: a) teenagers, b) playing a competitive game, c) under the protection of anonymity?

Now, I think girlwriteswhat is way too protective of the "male identity", apparently blaming women for wanting to switch places with men without having fought and toiled these last 40,000 years. I don't agree with her on that, and I don't like the idea that males need a place of their own or their identity crumbles. And I do support an equal divide between male and female videogame protagonists. But she's spot on when she accuses women of simply not enrolling in game designs schools in big enough numbers - the overwhelmingly male perspective in games won't change if female game designers don't show up. It's a matter of pure choice, there are no formal barriers in becoming a female designer, except if the very presence of males in the industry is somehow "revolting".

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

The thing is there ARE women in games design and saying that, because they aren't the majority, we have no right to expect our sex to be treated with some sort of decency is stupid. Stephen King and Joss Whedon seem to manage okay at writing decent female characters. Besides that the fact that you are only allowed to have an opinion on something is if you are a developer is bloody ridiculous.

I wasn't referencing 'CODbrodudes' in reference to receiving abuse I'm just sick of being told by such 'gamers' that I have less of a stake or a right to an opinion than them because they have a dick, usually on forums.

I also read recently that a independent game company has a majority of female staff. The owner explained that when their previous employer was bought out by a large publisher they gave all the equally qualified male applicants new jobs and didn't even call the women back. The independent guy then recruited the women he had worked with before the buyout.

So there's still some gender discrimination in the gaming industry.

 

[Morbira]

My only gripe with Sarkeesian is that she's essentially a no-name with no more authority on the subject than any other regular gamer (besides the vaguest point of her being female), but now she's been given a lump sum of serious cash to produce Youtube videos. I cannot possibly fathom a reason as to why we, the audience, should remotely care about her opinions, seeing as how she has no background or prior relevant experience to convince me that what she has to say is credible and worth my time. It comes off less as a passion project and more as though she's taking advantage of a hot button issue, and to see someone take over $500k from backers for a series of Op-Eds just feels dirty and leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Seneschal]

snip

The thing is there ARE women in games design and saying that, because they aren't the majority, we have no right to expect our sex to be treated with some sort of decency is stupid. Stephen King and Joss Whedon seem to manage okay at writing decent female characters. Besides that the fact that you are only allowed to have an opinion on something is if you are a developer is bloody ridiculous.

I wasn't referencing 'CODbrodudes' in reference to receiving abuse I'm just sick of being told by such 'gamers' that I have less of a stake or a right to an opinion than them because they have a dick, usually on forums.

I also read recently that a independent game company has a majority of female staff. The owner explained that when their previous employer was bought out by a large publisher they gave all the equally qualified male applicants new jobs and didn't even call the women back. The independent guy then recruited the women he had worked with before the buyout.

So there's still some gender discrimination in the gaming industry.

Nowhere did I say that you're not entitled to an opinion if you're not a designer, I said that it's unfair to expect a 90% male-crewed industry to represent both sides without bias. We're talking hundreds of thousands of people, hundreds of them for every project, not a few solitary writers. Women are supposedly 40% or more of the gaming audience, but they seem to shirk the responsibility of actually taking part in the creative process, and I seriously doubt that kind of disparity between the number of female gamers and designers is just "patriarchal oppression", obstructing game schools, and sexist employers. The fact that game developers are predominantly male isn't a male-generated problem - women weren't barred from entering when the medium was in its infancy, and early games weren't nearly as male-oriented as today's. Saying that "we don't push enough women into the industry" and that things aren't "welcoming" enough for them is blatant objectification, treating women as if their choice in higher education is something to be "steered" and not really theirs to choose anyway.

So yes, I think if women make up half the gaming audience, they should choose to make up half of the designers. Demanding fair and equal representation is otherwise unrealistic, though demonstrating that there's a market for concessions (e.g. the FemShep thing) should be encouraged. And I definitely wouldn't expect games to get less pandering, but they will ideally start to pander to both genders in equal measure.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

women weren't barred from entering when the medium was in its infancy,

Yeah I'm sure there were loads of Japanese women working at Nintendo in the late 70's... oh wait...no.

There is more and more women working in games but saying that we have to be treated like dirt until we have an equal share is just ludicrous.

Would you accept that 'oh it's just the majority bias' excuse if we were talking about racism, of course not, so why is sexism okay?

Frankly I would love to be in games design and 'the creative process' but the fact is I live in the North of England and there ain't a whole lot of games design schools here. Should that give me no right to complain about stupid stereotypes in games, hell no.

 

[Tippy]

There is more and more women working in games but saying that we have to be treated like dirt until we have an equal share is just ludicrous.

And implying that every single game ever made has treated women like dirt is equally ludicrous. There ARE games which have great female leads, and most of those games HAVE been made by men.

The percentage of games/media where women are treated like dirt will reduce as the percentage of women involved in the creative process of games/media increases.

It's true that women didn't invent the first gaming systems, games, etc and prety much the entire culture was founded overwhelmingly by men. But times have changed, you said so yourself, and males don't "own" gaming (just like males don't "own" light bulbs despite Thomas Edison, Henry Woodward and Mathew Evans being entirely behind it's invention).

Everything males have invented has been for everyone to share. Sure at first they were posessive of their inventions and probably insisted that it was a "male" thing (e.g. women driving cars was once frowned upon), but eventually they opened up views and allowed everyone to do it.

The same thing is slowly happening with video games, you just need to give it time. That's right, time.

Frankly I would love to be in games design and 'the creative process' but the fact is I live in the North of England and there ain't a whole lot of games design schools here.

Stop repeatedly bringing your personal life into the picture to argue against everyone's points, especially when they're referring to a far more general picture. Stop taking every statement as a personal insult directed towards you. Stop using your life as an example of what you think the majority (or even a good chunk) of other females' lives are like. Stop ending every single post with "I still have the right to argue and criticize, ain't nobody going to take away my right, etc etc". Nobody is trying to silence you, and even if they are they have obviously been failing so far (lol). Nobody is taking away your personal rights or even suggesting the idea, but in most of your posts on this topic you just keep saying the same thing over and over.
You've been gaming for a long time, we get it, stop rubbing it in our faces again and again. No 15-year-old CoD players are telling you to shut up here (yes I've read your other posts here). Nobody is rubbing their gaming experience in your face.
This is the exact "look at me I'm a gamer girl" attitude that I thought feminists were AGAINST. Your personal life story as a gamer is interesting (as is everyone else's), but not something you can dissmiss whole arguments on.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I'm so sorry that my existence ruins your little bubble of entitlement and sexism. I'll keep posting the same things in these threads over and over if I have to until you guys get it through your heads that gaming doesn't belong to you and women have it perfectly in our right to point out when the demeaning cheesecake goes too far. Nowhere did I say every game treats us like dirt you thought that bit up yourself.

When you say things about 'women' you are saying them about me so hell yeah I'm going to wade in with my personal experiences. There are probably a vast number of women in the same position as me, as we all like saying on these forums you are never the only one!

If you want to throw names of inventors around and prove how vastly superior men are, okay, Ada Lovelace (1815?1852), who is sometimes credited as being the first computer programmer.

Is it okay if I criticise games now? Will the big strong man let me?

 

[Tippy]

I'll keep posting the same things in these threads over and over if I have to until you guys get it through your heads that gaming doesn't belong to you and women have it perfectly in our right to point out when the demeaning cheesecake goes too far.

Back to dismissing arguments claiming "blah blah blah, it's my right" while actually saying nothing at all: Check.

If you want to throw names of inventors around and prove how superior men are, okay, Ada Lovelace (1815?1852), who is sometimes credited as being the first computer programmer.

Is it okay if I criticise games now?

Automatic accusations of sexism and mysoginy: Check.

Here, re-worded just for you: "Just because Ada Lovelace was sometimes credited as being the first computer programmer doesn't mean that females "own" programming".
There, happy?

snip

I'm so sorry that my existence ruins your little bubble of entitlement and sexism.[/quote]
Whoa, I think I hit the nail on the head with you:
> Again, assuming everything is aimed at you personally
> Anyone who argues/disagrees with you is automatically misogynistic and sexist

Perfect