Trump ordered to pay $350 million for fraudulent business practices in New York

Hades

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I'm trying to point out that voting for either Trump or Biden doesn't actually matter, you gotta vote them all out if you guys actually want things to change. You guys on the left thinking getting Biden to win is an accomplishment is the same as those thinking that Trump getting elected is an accomplishment. Just like when ya'll on the left look down on the election deniers when you all believed Trump colluded with Russia to steal the 2016 election. You're 2 sides of the same coin. I'm not voting for either Trump or Biden and I would prefer neither of them to win.
Kind of a bunch of nonsense. To be charitable we can indeed say that neither candidate winning ''matters'' when it comes to overturning the Reagan consensus but that's not the only factor to consider. Even we we take Biden at his worst and concede he won't change things for the better he at least won't make everything dramatically worse like Trump. In that sense it absolutely matters. Even if you don't solve all problems in the world then harm mitigation is still a noble act.

Besides by default this election matters. Because if one candidate tried to do a coup and the other didn't then it matters which one wins. If one candidate is corrupt to an extreme degree and the other is not then it matters which one wins. And if one candidate gleefully brags about surrendering Europe to the Kremlin and the other doesn't then it certainly matters who wins.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Kind of a bunch of nonsense. To be charitable we can indeed say that neither candidate winning ''matters'' when it comes to overturning the Reagan consensus but that's not the only factor to consider. Even we we take Biden at his worst and concede he won't change things for the better he at least won't make everything dramatically worse like Trump. In that sense it absolutely matters. Even if you don't solve all problems in the world then harm mitigation is still a noble act.

Besides by default this election matters. Because if one candidate tried to do a coup and the other didn't then it matters which one wins. If one candidate is corrupt to an extreme degree and the other is not then it matters which one wins. And if one candidate gleefully brags about surrendering Europe to the Kremlin and the other doesn't then it certainly matters who wins.
Keep in mind that Phoenixmgs is a Russian asset. So of course he thinks both are the same.
 

Phoenixmgs

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You think people are following this news because of who they plan to vote for???

People are following this story because it's a pretty big deal for a potential president to be on the hook for 350mil in fraud charges. Both because he may try and stall long enough to pardon himself, and because that's your world leader openly convicted of fraud. Real confidence inspiring there.

This isn't about votes, it's about world news.
People follow the news to hope to learn what's going on and the news doesn't really tell you regardless of what side you watch. It's the massive hypocrisy of the left (and right) watching their news and laughing at the other side for being totally ignorant of what is going on. The fraud civil case isn't as nearly as big a deal as your making it out to be.

Oh look, Phoenixmgs is doing that thing again where he's totally not for either side while defending one side tooth and nail.

No wait, that's pretty much all he ever does.
I'm telling you your side is just as bad, not that the other side is better. And because you feel your side is best of the worst doesn't make them worth voting for.

Kind of a bunch of nonsense. To be charitable we can indeed say that neither candidate winning ''matters'' when it comes to overturning the Reagan consensus but that's not the only factor to consider. Even we we take Biden at his worst and concede he won't change things for the better he at least won't make everything dramatically worse like Trump. In that sense it absolutely matters. Even if you don't solve all problems in the world then harm mitigation is still a noble act.

Besides by default this election matters. Because if one candidate tried to do a coup and the other didn't then it matters which one wins. If one candidate is corrupt to an extreme degree and the other is not then it matters which one wins. And if one candidate gleefully brags about surrendering Europe to the Kremlin and the other doesn't then it certainly matters who wins.
What did Trump actually do as president that is so awful? The democrats recently have done far more to chip away at democracy than republicans.

Keep in mind that Phoenixmgs is a Russian asset. So of course he thinks both are the same.
Yep, Russian bot here, my friends do call me a robot so...
 

Elijin

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People follow the news to hope to learn what's going on and the news doesn't really tell you regardless of what side you watch. It's the massive hypocrisy of the left (and right) watching their news and laughing at the other side for being totally ignorant of what is going on. The fraud civil case isn't as nearly as big a deal as your making it out to be.
Because you personally, don't think it's a big deal. That's it, that's your entire metric for it not being a big deal.

The fact you're willing to ignore the global optics of (potentially) a president who just got convicted of fraud is all about the fact you don't foresee anything bad happening which might affect you personally. Because you're a straight white dude with a secure financial position.

The rest of the world is a wee bit more concerned, especially those of us in the international community.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Because you personally, don't think it's a big deal. That's it, that's your entire metric for it not being a big deal.

The fact you're willing to ignore the global optics of (potentially) a president who just got convicted of fraud is all about the fact you don't foresee anything bad happening which might affect you personally. Because you're a straight white dude with a secure financial position.

The rest of the world is a wee bit more concerned, especially those of us in the international community.
Trump was already president... What horrible things do you think happened? Why the fuck would I care about optics?
 

Casual Shinji

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Trump was already president... What horrible things do you think happened?
Considering you found the measures to prevent Covid more horrible than Covid itself, and the overturning of Roe v. Wade completely logical, there's absolutely no point to answering this question.
 

Elijin

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Trump was already president... What horrible things do you think happened? Why the fuck would I care about optics?
"Why would I care about the optics on both domestic and international politics of having an openly corrupt leader of the US"

Yes yes, all politicians are corrupt, but if you can't see the distinction between rumour and 'we all know' vs actually convicted...you're a dumb shit.
 

Ag3ma

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Yes yes, all politicians are corrupt,
No, they really aren't.

Politics is extremely rough and competitive, and often the art of it is getting things done in the face of massive opposition and circumstantial difficulty. This predisposes us to see a lot of the ugliness, trickery, ambition, greed. (I would suggest a lot of the same machinery is going on in other organisations too, it's just hidden as they are private institutions who do not have the same public scrutiny.) However, even then, I would suggest many if not most politicians operate with at least reasonable ethical and legal standards, and have at least a decent share of genuine public interest - although the latter may not be viewed so by their political opponents.

"They're all as bad as each other" is arguably one of the most corrosive attitudes amongst the public. It fosters a sort of aparthy and learnt helplessness that improvement cannot be achieved. Improvement can be achieved, and the electorate have a key role in democracy of pushing for it. The more corrupt, negligent, and nakedly self-interested a politician is, the more than the voters need to make standards clear by kicking them to the kerb.

There is a genuine degree of defence of Trump that a lot of what went on during his tenure was Republican "business as usual", and the USA was still okay at the end. On the other hand, his venality, incompetence and corruption also inevitably infects the state. Impropriety, stacking courts, obstructing oversight, electoral interference, demagoguery... none of these broke anything critical 2017-2021, but they are all damage to good democratic governance. The failure of the system to firmly rein this in or be punished by the electorate sends a clear signal that this is fair game for politicians. The likely end result is (further) degeneration of politics.
 

Hades

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What did Trump actually do as president that is so awful? The democrats recently have done far more to chip away at democracy than republicans.
Corruption
Disrupting the transatlantic alliance
Stoking civil devisions beyond the breaking point
A coup
Blackmailing allied countries to intervene in the election for him
Wreaking havoc during the covid era(no making mistakes handling covid isn't worse than ignoring it or giving credence to the dumbests bleach related ideas our there)
Following the Orban playbook
A coup
And coup.

There's a reason Trump gets placed at the absolute bottom of any historical ranking.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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Corruption
Disrupting the transatlantic alliance
Stoking civil devisions beyond the breaking point
A coup
Blackmailing allied countries to intervene in the election for him
Wreaking havoc during the covid era(no making mistakes handling covid isn't worse than ignoring it or giving credence to the dumbests bleach related ideas our there)
Following the Orban playbook
A coup
And coup.

There's a reason Trump gets placed at the absolute bottom of any historical ranking.
But none of that hurt Phoenixmgs, so why should anyone care?!
 

Piscian

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Corruption
Disrupting the transatlantic alliance
Stoking civil devisions beyond the breaking point
A coup
Blackmailing allied countries to intervene in the election for him
Wreaking havoc during the covid era(no making mistakes handling covid isn't worse than ignoring it or giving credence to the dumbests bleach related ideas our there)
Following the Orban playbook
A coup
And coup.

There's a reason Trump gets placed at the absolute bottom of any historical ranking.
It is kind of shocking the way if Biden had a call, on record, recorded and transcribed and then additional calls on video with his white house lawyer (the Giuliani call released this week), pressuring another country to investigate(nay literally make up rumors about) a political opponent, the Right would be losing their minds.

But when Trump does it, its a nothing burger. The level of intentional willful ignorance is irritating as fuck.

d8835b28-e78a-40c9-9456-a441f5e23a9c_text.gif

But we know. It's deliberate and laughably transparent. The only thing that matters is the "agenda".
 

Ag3ma

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It is kind of shocking the way if Biden had a call, on record, recorded and transcribed and then additional calls on video with his white house lawyer (the Giuliani call released this week),
A new one? Where?
 

Bedinsis

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It's the massive hypocrisy of the left (and right) watching their news and laughing at the other side for being totally ignorant of what is going on.
I agree. Laughing at someone else for being ignorant is not helpful for anyone.
The democrats recently have done far more to chip away at democracy than republicans.
Do tell.
...a lot of what went on during his tenure was Republican "business as usual"...
Just change one word and you've finally understood.
I assume the word is "Republican" though I am uncertain what you'd want it replaced with.
 

Avnger

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I assume the word is "Republican" though I am uncertain what you'd want it replaced with.
You gotta remember that one of Tstorm's favorite bits is to claim that "Donald Trump is really a democrat" for anything he considers negative.
 

tstorm823

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I assume the word is "Republican" though I am uncertain what you'd want it replaced with.
You gotta remember that one of Tstorm's favorite bits is to claim that "Donald Trump is really a democrat" for anything he considers negative.
It's not even anything I consider negative. There are plenty of things Trump did that I approve of that were well in line with what Democrats have done. It's not just the bad things. Prison reform could just as well have been done by Obama. The tax reforms could have been Clinton. Space Force isn't particularly partisan. The wall is literally an expansion of Democratic policies from the prior administration. It's not just the things I don't like about Trump that he has in common with Democrats.