Turn Based Combat

[Joccaren]

Any game that has combat probably has turn based combat. Shooters? The number of bullets coming out of your gun per second, how far you can move each second, the effects crouching proning and jumping has on your movement per second all add up to a turn based system, with turns being time measurements as opposed to Pause combat. Make Move. Restart Combat to show move. Pause Combat. Make Move. ect.

In genres with melee weapons it becomes easily far more noticeable, simply because your not firing 12 bullets each second, your slashing forward, which can take multiple seconds, and its painfully obvious that the game has disabled you from slashing again until your animation has finished, otherwise enemies would be insta-killed by mass slashes of weapons and animations would get completely F***ed.

To make turn based combat immersive, keep it real time yet turn based. You have no control over the flow of turns, so you can't sit back and think 'Hrrm. Should I attack, use this, use this, or use this?' but instead have to do it on the fly. Sure, a lot of the time its still painfully obvious its turn based, but welcome to computer games.

 

[ChupathingyX]

ok Oblivion is a bad example try sometihng like Fable of the Witcher, in combat you dont just stand there thinking of the best strategy to defeat a monster, because by the time you have thoguht of one they have probably killed you. Immersion requires more player involvement, in these BETTER examples, you need to respond quikly, either dodge block counter attack, whatever you can do, not waiting and deciding.

i personally haven't seen an extremeley immersive turn based system, and even though most of these games have some of the best stories ive rarely seen one work in sync with the story as things such as random encounters comletley break any sense of flow and coherent connection to the characters, take FFXIII's Hope. In the cutscenes he is a complete wimp even afraid of his own teamates but in combat he is suddenly courageos and willing to fight. Im not saying that they are completley unimmersive i say it because alot of these ssystems are designed out of sync with the story they often fall flat, maybe they could of made Hope like reluctant to attack or when he did he would oftne miss or his attacks would be the weakest, although this might cause some balance issues, it could of made the battle system more immersive.

You seem to have a strange definition of immersion.

Immersion is when you become mentally involved and focused on the current events and/or actions. In a more tactical/strategical turn-based game you need to make decisions, manage your resources, think of where you're going to send your characters, what are they going to do, survey the area, think of consequences that could stem from your decisisons et cetera.

So keeping that in mind, yes, turn-based games are immersive, at least the more strategical ones like the old cRPG games and alot of other PC games from the 90s.

A lot of people seem to believe immerson is when the game starts to become real and you feel like you, yourself, are in the game, but this mostly wrong as immersion defines the feeling (in the case of video games) of being involved in the video games mechanics and features.

 

[JohnnyDelRay]

Turn-based combat is one many things that needs to make a comeback, seriously. I never found the take turns RPG's ala Japanese style to be very immersive, but that's just me. I find games like X-Com, Jagged Alliance and Fallout Tactics to be extremely immersive, especially games where you only go into turn-based combat when enemies appear, so it doesn't break up the pace too much.

Positioning your very invested characters into places to play on their strengths and weaknesses, making decisions, and totally pwning the AI when you have got it just right is extremely rewarding. Placing a sniper on a roof, a quick moving character in the hallways, an accurate and auto-fire weapon expert at a window to interrupt enemies who might try to make a beeline for your characters, I mean you pretty much orchestrate your own firefight, and every little element of every character. What could be more immersive than that? I find these more involving than most action RPG's to be honest, especially the latest ones like Dungeon Siege 3 and Dragon Age 2.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

ill assume your talking about jedi knights 2 jedi academy?

if so, they are two completely different types of games/genres/styles for a reason, and while the action/combat felt nice in jedi academy, it was still sketchy as fuck on some of the hit detection/movements.

no doubt it is great still, and that more games to mimic that combat, kotor is on a whole different level for the type of gameplay, so the two aren't really comparable.

Jedi Academy is acutally Jedi Knight 3. Jedi Knight 2 is Jedi Outcast.
I know that those two games can't really be compared. However, I said that playing JK 2 made me realize how much the combat in KotOR sucks (IMO) when compared to it. Combat in KotOR was like standing next to two fighters that are retarted. They attack once then ask you what to do next. Combat in JK 2 was EPIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIC! <- Example: A tense bossfight. The enemy attacks me, but I avoid being hit with a side-flip, counter the attack by throwing my lightsaber in mid-air, while using a force-power to deal additional damage.
Winning those fights give you a feeling of accomplishment, while KotOR tended to get repetitive over time. This is just my opinion on this.

ah woops you are correct, i haven't played them in a long time so forgot the numbering.

and fair enough, i've played kotor 50+ times and it still isn't old to me to this day (just got done with another kotor II playthrough about a week ago.) while the JK games i played only a handful of times all together. so guess we are in agreement just on polar opposites of the spectrum.

 

[Thaius]

Eh, I disagree with your premise. Immersion isn't just a matter of feeling like you're "in the game." I mean it's great when the controller seems to disappear, when you're no longer experiencing a game through that physical medium but simply having that direct contact, but it's far from the only way to immerse someone in an interactive experience.

Turn-based combat does not achieve the aforementioned direct experience, but it doesn't try to. Final Fantasy games, for instance, immerse the player in a complex world and mythology with interesting characters that make you want to understand it all. For that, more immersive combat is simply not required.

The other thing to keep in mind is that turn-based combat is not some uber-unrealistic thing that fails at simulating combat. We must remember that video games always, always, always attempt to emulate the experience, not clone it, because the latter simply is not possible. Even Call of Duty does that. Why? Because real life is not a game. Games need to construct themselves based on what makes for good, balanced mechanics before basing themselves on realism; that's why it's quicker to pull out a pistol, an entirely separate gun, than it is to reload a weapon, for instance, and that's in a game that strives for realism even to a fault. Heck, even Chess is a battle simulator, just governed by rules that may not be realistic, but are certainly balanced. Turn-based systems are simply gamified representations of combat, no less so than that of Battlefield 3, if a bit less realistic in some ways.

I think that is incredibly important to understand. Heck, no one complained about Puzzle Quest's combat being unrealistic, because it was freakin' brilliant, but as soon as the same type of game happens with actual characters fighting onscreen, it's unrealistic? We need to come to terms with the fact that video games are representations of real life, and are not intended to be carbon-copies of it, but to make balanced, well-designed systems out of it. And turn-based combat unquestionably accomplishes that goal.

 

[Thaius]

EDIT: Double post. Ignore. Stupid college internet...

 

[pablogonzalez]

ok Oblivion is a bad example try sometihng like Fable of the Witcher, in combat you dont just stand there thinking of the best strategy to defeat a monster, because by the time you have thoguht of one they have probably killed you. Immersion requires more player involvement, in these BETTER examples, you need to respond quikly, either dodge block counter attack, whatever you can do, not waiting and deciding.

i personally haven't seen an extremeley immersive turn based system, and even though most of these games have some of the best stories ive rarely seen one work in sync with the story as things such as random encounters comletley break any sense of flow and coherent connection to the characters, take FFXIII's Hope. In the cutscenes he is a complete wimp even afraid of his own teamates but in combat he is suddenly courageos and willing to fight. Im not saying that they are completley unimmersive i say it because alot of these ssystems are designed out of sync with the story they often fall flat, maybe they could of made Hope like reluctant to attack or when he did he would oftne miss or his attacks would be the weakest, although this might cause some balance issues, it could of made the battle system more immersive.

You seem to have a strange definition of immersion.

Immersion is when you become mentally involved and focused on the current events and/or actions. In a more tactical/strategical turn-based game you need to make decisions, manage your resources, think of where you're going to send your characters, what are they going to do, survey the area, think of consequences that could stem from your decisisons et cetera.

So keeping that in mind, yes, turn-based games are immersive, at least the more strategical ones like the old cRPG games and alot of other PC games from the 90s.

A lot of people seem to believe immerson is when the game starts to become real and you feel like you, yourself, are in the game, but this mostly wrong as immersion defines the feeling (in the case of video games) of being involved in the video games mechanics and features.

in a real time system ou are mentally involved there is a necessity for the player to respond quikly and efficiently instead of standing there deciding which of your several spells is effective against an enemy

see there is a far more realistic metal involvment provided

 

[ChupathingyX]

SNIP

See, you're saying that to be immersive a game has to be realistc, see that is wrong.

Immersive =/= realistic.

Or at least, it doesn't have to be realistic. The definition of immersion(that is relevant to this discussion) is being mentally involved in what you are doing or the world you are in. Doesn't matter how fast you are thinking, whether or not the game has a gritty, realistic design or a cel-shaded, cartoony look, if the player has become mentally involved and fixated in the game world or the combat, they have become immersed.

Immersion isn't even strictly related to the gameplay, if the player is interested in the story or the characters and want to learn more and continue, they have become immersed, regardless of what the gameplay is, the gameplay will either improve or downgrade the experience. However, if the game in question is turn-based, that doe snot make it inheriently unimmersive, not at all.

The only times when immersion is really ruined is when a player starts meta-gaming, exploiting the mechanics or the structure of the game or just dicking around for no good reason or maybe even when a bad glitch occurs.

 

[Something Amyss]

the basic question is: How can a turn based combat system be immersive or work in sync with story?

Do you mean "immersive" as in "enthralling, keeping you glued to your seat, or the more widely used definition, "brown heavy first person shooter?"

Because with the former, turn-based combat kept me glued to my seat in many of the pre-X final Fantasy games.

 

[veloper]

There's no problem with turn based combat. Plenty of games do it very well. I actually prefer it in certain games. But it really comes down to a case by case scenario. It wouldn't work in Call of Duty, but for games like Final Fantasy X, Legend of Legaia, or Suikoden II it works perfectly.

Incidentally, I think that was the biggest complaint about FFXIII's combat. It was too fast paced. Combat was moving at such a hectic rate that you couldn't select your actions fast enough. Especially when you had 6 or so slots and 20 different spells. As a result, you largely end up just selecting "auto-attack" to let the game select the most effective attacks itself. And at that point, you're not really playing your own game anymore. If you think turn based combat is boring, letting the game play itself is even more boring.

I thought it worked well in KotOR..

That wasn't really turn-based, though.

You just had the option to pause the game. It didn't really force you to.

OT: Yeah, I don't like turn-based games. I just don't enjoy them.

Um. I hate to break it to you, but KOTOR was a turn based combat system. I believe it works out that 2 seconds is one turn. If you're in combat and you don't select an action, your character just automatically chooses to use a basic attack. You could que up to three actions ahead of time. It was fast paced, yes. But it was fast paced turn based combat. And nothing you or anyone else say will change that. I think Bioware even described it as turn based combat.

Oh, and it actually plays like Dungeons and Dragons, you just don't see the "dice rolls" unless you check your combat log.

The combat abilities may have time delays, but all units can MOVE at the same time, which disqualifies KOTOR from boing turn-based = 1 move at a time.

Okay, it's been a while since I played KOTOR, but I think it was more or less one move at a time.

Play it again then. Every jedi, droid and twilek can MOVE at the same time.
Attacks and abilities do have variable delays, depending on initiative (lower values may be delayed until the higher ones have gone first), but in practice this makes no difference for the outcome of a battle in KOTOR.
NWN is a better example of RTWP. In mage battles, having the higher initiative can make all the difference, because the spells have big effects and can even win the fight immediately (example: firing off Time Stop before your opponent does).
At the same time, realtime movement let's you exploit AOEs like fireball in RT.

 

[Continuity]

in many RPG's you generally see a turn based combat system
some take place in turns
some (most) final fantasy games have that arbitary recharge time system (unsure what the name is)
now consider the gameplay of say Oblivion, as it is an action system it creates a sort of realtime feeling and in general ends up becoming a very immersive expierience, however turn based combat is so broken up so arbitary so slow so....well its not AS good as an real time system.

the basic question is: How can a turn based combat system be immersive or work in sync with story?

Maybe it cant be as immersive but it allows for tremendous detail and options, the VATS system in FO3 is just an ugly hack that gives a tiny glimpse into what TBC offers. Plus TBC adds forethought and strategy where with FPS you have mostly action and tactics.

TBC has its value and its place, I don't want to see it in every game but I don't want to see it disappear all together either.

Edit: having read some of the other replies I agree with many that realism =/= immersion, you can get immersed in rogue FFS and that has ASCII graphics.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

You use it in a game that works well with that system? Sorry, I kinda don't see what you're getting at here.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

ah woops you are correct, i haven't played them in a long time so forgot the numbering.

and fair enough, i've played kotor 50+ times and it still isn't old to me to this day (just got done with another kotor II playthrough about a week ago.) while the JK games i played only a handful of times all together. so guess we are in agreement just on polar opposites of the spectrum.

Well my favourite genre is FPS, so turn-based combat is a no-go for me. VATS in the new Fallouts is an exception, as it's optional and often comes really handy.
It comes down to what people prefer. Turn-based is no combat for me. I like it fast and tense.
I think I should play some of those older games again....including KotOR and the JK-Series...

i will agree VATS is super handy, i just got done doing my first full run through of all the new DLC for new vegas, and if you don't use vats, you are easily screwed.

and don't mention that...it's going to make me want to re-install, and then there goes my whole weekend =\

 

[Firstmark_Bannor]

in many RPG's you generally see a turn based combat system
some take place in turns
some (most) final fantasy games have that arbitary recharge time system (unsure what the name is)
now consider the gameplay of say Oblivion, as it is an action system it creates a sort of realtime feeling and in general ends up becoming a very immersive expierience, however turn based combat is so broken up so arbitary so slow so....well its not AS good as an real time system.

the basic question is: How can a turn based combat system be immersive or work in sync with story?

I have to disagree with some of the assumptions made in your post. Why do you assume turn based battle system are not immersive? Honestly Haveing grown up with ATB (active time battles) and turn based combat in general i find Games like Oblivion not only unimmersive but a little on the hard to get into side. It has always been my opinion that immersion pretty much relies solely on the Quality of writing and has very little to do with the game play. I prefer turn based combat in rpgs.

ok Oblivion is a bad example try sometihng like Fable of the Witcher, in combat you dont just stand there thinking of the best strategy to defeat a monster, because by the time you have thoguht of one they have probably killed you. Immersion requires more player involvement, in these BETTER examples, you need to respond quikly, either dodge block counter attack, whatever you can do, not waiting and deciding.

i personally haven't seen an extremeley immersive turn based system, and even though most of these games have some of the best stories ive rarely seen one work in sync with the story as things such as random encounters comletley break any sense of flow and coherent connection to the characters, take FFXIII's Hope. In the cutscenes he is a complete wimp even afraid of his own teamates but in combat he is suddenly courageos and willing to fight. Im not saying that they are completley unimmersive i say it because alot of these ssystems are designed out of sync with the story they often fall flat, maybe they could of made Hope like reluctant to attack or when he did he would oftne miss or his attacks would be the weakest, although this might cause some balance issues, it could of made the battle system more immersive.

Two things, 1) FF13 had alot more problems than just immersion and shouldn't be used as any sort of example, except as a horrible warning of how not to make a game.
2) The examples you've given DO NOT CREATE IMMERSION FOR ME. Having to react quickly all the time to everything that happens is one of the fastest ways to break immersion for me.
Taking your time and thinking things through is one of the best ways to create immersion. You were right Oblivion was a bad example of immersion but so are Fable and The Witcher. How honestly can you become immersed in your characters world if you don't stop to contemplate their plight?
You mentioned you've never played and immersive turn based rpg. I have one for you, It's called Legend of legaia. It combines the best aspect of fighting games and rpgs to create a truly unique system that sucks you in. Combined with a deep and touching story, Its the best example i can come up with.

 

[pablogonzalez]

the basic question is: How can a turn based combat system be immersive or work in sync with story?

Do you mean "immersive" as in "enthralling, keeping you glued to your seat, or the more widely used definition, "brown heavy first person shooter?"

Because with the former, turn-based combat kept me glued to my seat in many of the pre-X final Fantasy games.

im insulted )
jesys me with everyone else are tired with the fps standard today
lets get something more like HL2 or Bioshock
immersive i meant as mentally involving the player to a more realistic degree
in real time combat you have to respond quickly, in turn based it is so slow and systematic not that it is totally bad, i enjoyed FFX but
take ffXIII
how the story is totally disconected with gameplay

say: the "hope" guy is a total wimp
he cant even stand up to his assosciates
then combat starts and he is willing to fight these monstorous creatures no worries.

that's what im asking how turn based combat could not break up the game's flow and story
and with these suggestions
perhaps we could improve TBC games like the final fantasy series

 

[Something Amyss]

90% of that post was unreadable. However:

immersive i meant as mentally involving the player to a more realistic degree

Again, setting up false standards. That implies that real-time is needed to immerse someone. To which I say, bull.

Use your bloody imagination. People were "immsersed" in media well before realtime games were developed. People get immersed in tabletop RPGs, though a full turn can take anywhere form minutes to hours.

"Realism" is not immersion. That's just ridiculous, and it's the same logic that sets up brown FPSes as "immersive."

to be immersive, one needs merely to be engaging. This is easily done with good storytelling, moreso than with simply making somethign "realtime" or "first person."

Is my generation REALLY so imagination starved that they can no longer be engaged in any but the most direct sense?

 

[pablogonzalez]

90% of that post was unreadable. However:

immersive i meant as mentally involving the player to a more realistic degree

Again, setting up false standards. That implies that real-time is needed to immerse someone. To which I say, bull.

Use your bloody imagination. People were "immsersed" in media well before realtime games were developed. People get immersed in tabletop RPGs, though a full turn can take anywhere form minutes to hours.

"Realism" is not immersion. That's just ridiculous, and it's the same logic that sets up brown FPSes as "immersive."

to be immersive, one needs merely to be engaging. This is easily done with good storytelling, moreso than with simply making somethign "realtime" or "first person."

Is my generation REALLY so imagination starved that they can no longer be engaged in any but the most direct sense?

and how is turn based engaging?
story is great
gameplay could be taking place in disneyland
its just broken up

use my imgaination?
isnt that what the story is for? why they design the characters so extravagently?why they make a unique fantasy world?
i personally do not find how the systematic gameplay could be engaging
sure there is good storytelling
but look at real time combat
it is obvious how it is engaging the reaction needed to survive a monster attack
of course realism is not the same as immersion but instead of a having to make a series of different selections you genuinley have to react (fuck off about fpses ok? you dont like the brown ones neither do i)
thats how these games engage you

the characters as an themselves need the player

final fantasy is on the verge of playing itself

 

[Baralak]

Final Fantasy XIII has the best turn based combat system that I've ever experienced. The features and design keep it fast paced and strategic enough that it gives it a sense of real time combat as well. Turn based combat with real time elements. I think it's quite an excellent system, possibly the best that turn based combat can ever get.

If we swapped it around, real time combat with turn based elements? I'm not so sure that would work out as well, off the top of my head at least.

I agree entirely, and I hope they keep the same system in XIII-2

 

[kayisking]

There's no problem with turn based combat. Plenty of games do it very well. I actually prefer it in certain games. But it really comes down to a case by case scenario. It wouldn't work in Call of Duty, but for games like Final Fantasy X, Legend of Legaia, or Suikoden II it works perfectly.

Incidentally, I think that was the biggest complaint about FFXIII's combat. It was too fast paced. Combat was moving at such a hectic rate that you couldn't select your actions fast enough. Especially when you had 6 or so slots and 20 different spells. As a result, you largely end up just selecting "auto-attack" to let the game select the most effective attacks itself. And at that point, you're not really playing your own game anymore. If you think turn based combat is boring, letting the game play itself is even more boring.

I thought it worked well in KotOR..

That wasn't really turn-based, though.

You just had the option to pause the game. It didn't really force you to.

OT: Yeah, I don't like turn-based games. I just don't enjoy them.

Um. I hate to break it to you, but KOTOR was a turn based combat system. I believe it works out that 2 seconds is one turn. If you're in combat and you don't select an action, your character just automatically chooses to use a basic attack. You could que up to three actions ahead of time. It was fast paced, yes. But it was fast paced turn based combat. And nothing you or anyone else say will change that. I think Bioware even described it as turn based combat.

Oh, and it actually plays like Dungeons and Dragons, you just don't see the "dice rolls" unless you check your combat log.

The combat abilities may have time delays, but all units can MOVE at the same time, which disqualifies KOTOR from boing turn-based = 1 move at a time.

I don't agree, why can't a turn-based game have everyones turn at the same time. Frozen Synapse is a great example of this.

 

[MagnetoHydroDynamics]

People who remorselessly bash turnbased combat are forgetting huge successes like, say... Chess.

I agree that some turn based combat is pretty out of place, and yes, sometimes the pause-the-action is much more fluid.
But still, turn based combat has its place, especially in more metaphoric(?) games where tactics are more important than level grind.

Preferably I would like to see more of Inuyasha Demon Tournament [http://games.adultswim.com/demon-tournament-action-online-game.html]'s style of turnbased combat.
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