Ubisoft: Straighter. Whiter. Duder.
- Thread starter Shamus Young
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I've gotta say i'm bugged by the addition of co-op in farcry 4 AND unity. Those games should only focus on a single player experience.
I agree with most of what you are saying, a budget is a budget and not every game will cater to everyone. Ubisoft does not deserve all of its criticism. They decided to go with the Halo-style of co-op - essentially four of the main character in differently coloured outfits, which is all right if a bit outdated for 2014. The thing that annoys me is that when they did not defend this choice, they made an otherwise decent design decision appear like an unfortunate side effect of some lack of funding. Stick to your guns or apologize wholeheartedly, darnit; everything else seems like trying to weasel away. (And again I am putting Words of 20/20 Hindsight +3 into their mouths. It is really hard not to, even though you pointed out some good reasons to avoid doing that.)Sgt. Sykes said:
Yet I also think of these recent controversies as something more than the PC-cries of misguided social justice warriors out for the blood of gaming as we know it*, as it might seem from the posts of the most sceptic of forum users. We have reached a point where the demographics of gamers are changing, and the old method of AAA-pandering to the lowest common (white, male) denominator is slowly becoming anacronistic. The new gaming masses are realizing how unrepresentative the gaming industry as a whole is, and as we humans usually do they are descending on a few symbolic cases - Ubisoft is a clear and present target, the entirety of gaming is a formless blob, even though it is the latter that has to change. Eventually all of this will even out, games will be made for those who desire to play them, but in the meantime there are going to be some ugly battles along the way.
*exaggerated for effect
It was a big issue and if you've read enough of what they've previously written it should come as no surprise that Jim, Yatzee, Critical Miss, and Shamus care about stuff like that and would want to share their opinion. Like anyone else in the press.Clive Howlitzer said:
Last I checked, pretty much only Jim and Shamus have talked about this (Critical Miss doesn't really count since it's just a comic, so of course it's going to be about whatever's topical). I don't really see how two people are "almost every single person". And even still, if they have different things to say about the matter, then yeah, I'm perfectly fine with everyone on The Escapist doing their own piece about the matter.Clive Howlitzer said:
Case in point: Jim is largely calling-out Ubisoft for having the kind of money to be able to throw at the problem to solve it, and that their excuses are basically just that; excuses. Over-all taking a more direct media pundit approach to calling Ubisoft out. Meanwhile Shamus is looking at this from his own experience and trying to meet Ubisoft halfway by saying that it's lame that they aren't including female characters, but saying that he can understand how Assassin's Creed requires a bit more complex animations with the way that characters interact directly, or how you can climb on various ledges. Either the women would have to be built like men (basically just the male model with boobs slapped on), or they would have to do a lot of extra testing to make sure that every animation works.
At the end of the day, you can never have too many viewpoints when forming your own opinion on a matter. So as long as each article on the matter brings something new to the table, I'm all for them all talking about the same thing.
While i agree on the exclusion of female chars being BS...
Whats this "white" argument all about? Ofcourse the dudes are white.. its france during the initial french revolution.
Having a colored assasin makes absolutely no sense there since a) why should they be involved in the countries affairs? Wheres the personal investment, at that time people of color where migrants at best and not exactly that deeply involved with the political ongoings, theres no drama to be had here. Dude comes over from the philipines and directly joins the french revolution in killing off a king he has no business of hating (yet)?
b) this is about a very important point in french history, making it not about a frenchman(or preferably a women because female assasins are more interesting from a story writing standpoint in my opinion) as a protagonist would be pretty insulting towards the french. That was THE event that everyone remembers from history class about french history... yet for political correctness sake it should atleast be a colored dude if we cant get a woman?
c) Impractical... having a black dude in a country that was whiter then cheesecake is like putting a black dude in a game thats about feudal japan being a successfull assasin there. You stick out like a sore thumb and they would simply hunt down your minority.. put a price on any information about colored people and mr super assasin would have no place left to hide or even to move around. I mean if the US of A could put all citizens with asian background into concentration camps during WW2 imagine what a monarch could do who could even care less about the rights of a minority?
The only reason i can even think of thought for not including a woman is that a woman not wearing womans clothing during that period of time would be highly suspicious. Werent there actually laws that forbade women to wear trousers? Also they would have to completly change the gameplay mechanics, dont know about you guys but i wouldnt count on a female assasin doing parcur and jumping from rooftops in a dress. The game would have needed to be much slower paced, it would be alot more cloak and dagger then what assasins creed stands for. In short it would be a completly different game requiring alot more brains and patience.
I think ubisoft is just scared that such a game would scare away the current audience and thats the reason why they dont consider a female protagonist. Then again that would mean that they actually thought longer about this issues then the two seconds that spokesperson needed to come up with that BS excuse...
Whats this "white" argument all about? Ofcourse the dudes are white.. its france during the initial french revolution.
Having a colored assasin makes absolutely no sense there since a) why should they be involved in the countries affairs? Wheres the personal investment, at that time people of color where migrants at best and not exactly that deeply involved with the political ongoings, theres no drama to be had here. Dude comes over from the philipines and directly joins the french revolution in killing off a king he has no business of hating (yet)?
b) this is about a very important point in french history, making it not about a frenchman(or preferably a women because female assasins are more interesting from a story writing standpoint in my opinion) as a protagonist would be pretty insulting towards the french. That was THE event that everyone remembers from history class about french history... yet for political correctness sake it should atleast be a colored dude if we cant get a woman?
c) Impractical... having a black dude in a country that was whiter then cheesecake is like putting a black dude in a game thats about feudal japan being a successfull assasin there. You stick out like a sore thumb and they would simply hunt down your minority.. put a price on any information about colored people and mr super assasin would have no place left to hide or even to move around. I mean if the US of A could put all citizens with asian background into concentration camps during WW2 imagine what a monarch could do who could even care less about the rights of a minority?
The only reason i can even think of thought for not including a woman is that a woman not wearing womans clothing during that period of time would be highly suspicious. Werent there actually laws that forbade women to wear trousers? Also they would have to completly change the gameplay mechanics, dont know about you guys but i wouldnt count on a female assasin doing parcur and jumping from rooftops in a dress. The game would have needed to be much slower paced, it would be alot more cloak and dagger then what assasins creed stands for. In short it would be a completly different game requiring alot more brains and patience.
I think ubisoft is just scared that such a game would scare away the current audience and thats the reason why they dont consider a female protagonist. Then again that would mean that they actually thought longer about this issues then the two seconds that spokesperson needed to come up with that BS excuse...
The more coherent arguments I've seen on the subject aren't directed towards AC:Unity in particular but rather the lack of a colored protagonist among any of their big titles. Okays, so Unity can't have one because setting, but if we're using the justification that the protagonist should be a native, why is Far Cry 4's protagonist a random white kid instead of a native of the region? Why did Watch_Dogs' guy have to be a random white guy? and so on.Karadalis said:
It's not that any one game on its own is indicative of anything bad, it's that all of Ubisoft's AAA games when taken as a group indicate a lack of diversity. And maybe each and every one of them was built around their specific protagonist, but could Ubisoft not really find a single title to greenlight for a major studio that had a protagonist that wasn't a white guy?
I haven't played Watch_Dogs specifically, but this particular example isn't a great one for proving depth of story - Having the main character blame themselves for things that went wrong in the plot is a pretty common trope [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Itsallmyfault]. Tropes aren't bad, (and all good stories are built at least in part out of them) but if you're trying to indicate a character is deep, you should probably use something that isn't so universal.Callate said:
Women assassins have a been a thing in AC lore (also in real life) since AC2. You specifically recruit them in ACBro, where they wear regular assassin unifroms. There's been a PC female assassin that didn't wear the uniform and sometimes wore a dress even incorporating how the different clothes made people treat you. In AC4 one of the main characters was a female assassin pretending to be a male pirate for most of the game. It's doable and has been done. There is zero excuse why they couldn't include one even if it "doesn't make sense".Karadalis said:
I want Beyond Good & Evil 2, goddamit! >.<'
But yeah, Ubi is a company run by tools who steamroll their good games, in favor of more shovelware, more Tom Clancy bullshit (poor guy can't take a break even in his grave) and a new yearly Ass Creed.
For every Valiant Hearts, Rayman Origins/Legends, Beyond Good & Evil and Child of Light, we get more Rabbids, more shitty dancing games, more Ass Creed sequels and DLCs and more Tom Clancy.
But yeah, Ubi is a company run by tools who steamroll their good games, in favor of more shovelware, more Tom Clancy bullshit (poor guy can't take a break even in his grave) and a new yearly Ass Creed.
For every Valiant Hearts, Rayman Origins/Legends, Beyond Good & Evil and Child of Light, we get more Rabbids, more shitty dancing games, more Ass Creed sequels and DLCs and more Tom Clancy.
I will agree that dealing with making female character models is a hassle, but these days it's starting to seem like it's well worth it. I'd only be a little bit annoyed if my gender wasn't represented in something I liked (Mirror's Edge and MLP being two great examples, and I was absolutely fine with the former), but that's probably only because I get to play as a white guy all the other times.
At this point in time, seeing a woman in a game is like seeing your own shadow, or your reflection in a mirror; it's awesome, it's unexpected, and it makes you stop and investigate. I still remember one time playing Halo:Reach, I got out of my Warthog to examine the first female Marine I'd ever seen in the game. I know how that sounds, but I was just so surprised to see a woman, out there with all the other boys, defending humanity and doesn't afraid of anything. I can also remember that part in Mass Effect 3 when I realized they'd not only done away with most of the nonhuman enemies, but they had no female models except for some special units. People say variety is the spice of life, and in games having both men and women makes the world feel more alive, more real, and more immersive.
At this point in time, seeing a woman in a game is like seeing your own shadow, or your reflection in a mirror; it's awesome, it's unexpected, and it makes you stop and investigate. I still remember one time playing Halo:Reach, I got out of my Warthog to examine the first female Marine I'd ever seen in the game. I know how that sounds, but I was just so surprised to see a woman, out there with all the other boys, defending humanity and doesn't afraid of anything. I can also remember that part in Mass Effect 3 when I realized they'd not only done away with most of the nonhuman enemies, but they had no female models except for some special units. People say variety is the spice of life, and in games having both men and women makes the world feel more alive, more real, and more immersive.
"Ubisoft's catalog is sausagefest even by video game standards."
Yeah, but so are the history books. Isn't it some kind of central tenet of some branch or sub-branch of feminism that women are largely left out of history? (not that it needs to be - it's common sense by now). There's a consequence to that - people associate the epic adventures of assassins, princes, and knights with males. So it does make a little bit of sense to view historical adventures (constituting most of Ubisoft's catalog) like Assassin's Creed featuring a female heroine as a little bit cartoonish, less grandiose and less serious. Even if that is total nonsense from the perspective we are privileged to have now.
On another note - what happened to silent protagonists? I've never played Assassin's Creed but it seems like the type of game perfect for the player to play as himself/herself. A sexless, genderless figure who speaks through the player choosing text options seems like it would suit the game perfectly. This kind of player character seems increasingly left to gaming history.
Yeah, but so are the history books. Isn't it some kind of central tenet of some branch or sub-branch of feminism that women are largely left out of history? (not that it needs to be - it's common sense by now). There's a consequence to that - people associate the epic adventures of assassins, princes, and knights with males. So it does make a little bit of sense to view historical adventures (constituting most of Ubisoft's catalog) like Assassin's Creed featuring a female heroine as a little bit cartoonish, less grandiose and less serious. Even if that is total nonsense from the perspective we are privileged to have now.
On another note - what happened to silent protagonists? I've never played Assassin's Creed but it seems like the type of game perfect for the player to play as himself/herself. A sexless, genderless figure who speaks through the player choosing text options seems like it would suit the game perfectly. This kind of player character seems increasingly left to gaming history.
It is a bit amusing that this argument really seems to be happening more because of what they said and how their reaction calls into question their commitment to diversity (To which they are not very committed it turns out).
If Ubisoft had just said, "that wasn't the game we made this time, but next time we'll do better to take this into consideration." Provided they actually followed through then the next Ass Creed (to borrow the brilliant abbreviation from ZP) could set them up to be in an even better position.
They made an excuse, and while people may be concerned with the inherent problem of mono-sex, mono-ethnic games, those same people are sick and tired and fed up with all the lame lack luster excuses.
they shouldn't have to apologize, maybe they made a great game, just acknowledge that Women might want to play that game, and consider them in the planning process for future titles. This is absolutely the fault of Ubisoft shortsighted planning and lack of responsibility, and has little to nothing to do with development costs and effort.
If Ubisoft had just said, "that wasn't the game we made this time, but next time we'll do better to take this into consideration." Provided they actually followed through then the next Ass Creed (to borrow the brilliant abbreviation from ZP) could set them up to be in an even better position.
They made an excuse, and while people may be concerned with the inherent problem of mono-sex, mono-ethnic games, those same people are sick and tired and fed up with all the lame lack luster excuses.
they shouldn't have to apologize, maybe they made a great game, just acknowledge that Women might want to play that game, and consider them in the planning process for future titles. This is absolutely the fault of Ubisoft shortsighted planning and lack of responsibility, and has little to nothing to do with development costs and effort.
Will people stop defending Ubisoft for this crap. If it was because of that they could just say it was that. They pretended like it would cost to much when it would of costed next to nothing compared to the actual budget of the game. I guarantee they spent more on how the crowd moves then it would take to make a female playable character.Blood Brain Barrier said:
Honestly the real reason is probably because they didn't think about it at the time but the reasons for that go into the problems within ubisoft.
Ahem... [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Belley]Karadalis said:
France was not "whiter than cheesecake" during the French Revolution, or indeed, anytime throughout the last thousand years or so [http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/].
More suspicious than being dressed in that assassin robe in public?
Fun fact: That law was actually put in place to stop women from wearing the pantalons that were popularized by the French revolution [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_wearing_trousers_in_the_Western_world_after_1900#France]. Which means that enough women were wearing them around that time that the government felt they had to be outlawed.
I thought assassination was all about cloak and dagger.
Altair is clearly a white guy with an Arabic name.Sgt. Sykes said:
Okay, okay.. canonically he's mixed race. But let's face it. He's a white guy. He even speaks with a weird American accent.
What's actually kind of funny is that while the in game reason as to why Altair is so white is contrived as fuck, there were actually plenty of "white" people living in the middle east at the time in the form of Turks, Caucasians and Greeks. The fact that they had to go for this ludicrous thing of making his mother some random West European does kind of go to show how much weight it carries that a character has some kind of connection with a presumed audience of that ancestry.
Shamus, you say that like one or two days of work isn't what Ubisoft puts into the character modelling anymore. They've had the same damn model since at least AC: Brotherhood (which, ironically to the current stance, actually let you pal around with ladies all you wanted, and could even make an all-female squad of assassins, if you felt so inclined), and they've just tacked different pieces of cloth, armor, and weapons onto it. The fabric even has a maximum height that it can sway and bounce, ffs. Hell, they even made a PS3 and PS4 port for AC: Liberation, which means the mythical female model that would take so much time and effort already exists! All the climbing, running, jumping, and wall-humping animations are already present, just recycle them again like they've been doing for years. What's hard about that?
(Also, if Tom Braider doesn't have a ballad, I'm not sure what I'll do)
EDIT: Hell, it's not like this is Saints' Row, where you have to worry about 1000 character customized features all interacting, trying not to glitch through cars, weapons, or layers fat transvestite beneath. These are stock models, of one of two varieties, with the occasional shader thrown a couple of notches for skin tone and grizzleness of beard.
(Also, if Tom Braider doesn't have a ballad, I'm not sure what I'll do)
EDIT: Hell, it's not like this is Saints' Row, where you have to worry about 1000 character customized features all interacting, trying not to glitch through cars, weapons, or layers fat transvestite beneath. These are stock models, of one of two varieties, with the occasional shader thrown a couple of notches for skin tone and grizzleness of beard.
It's true that it's a familiar trope in many forms of drama, but not so much in video games- and certainly not among the "grizzled white guy" stereotype it has become popular to mock in western-developed games. Take another look at the tvtropes link. There are only twelve entries in the whole thing for video games, versus twenty-two in live action television and three pages of entries under anime. And while I'm not familiar with every entry they list, I note that two-thirds of them are Japanese, half Japanese RPGs.Falterfire said:
Also, as I said, many narratives would have made the clumsy step of having his sister blaming him for his niece's death, externalizing his problem at the cost of making the sister less sympathetic. Instead we see him blaming himself and her denying his reasoning, which makes her more likable and supplies a more credible reason for his narrative arc.
I'm not saying that Pearce is about to step out of a Victorian period romance or something, but some thought went into him that makes him a little more memorable than many of the stoic, monosyllabic GWGs. And I think the creators should get a touch of recognition for that, rather than just lumping him in with whatshisname and whatshisface.
Man could you imagine the insane backlash if they turned lara into a guy.. It would be amazing.. It's what popcorn dreams of at night.
Shamus Young said:
Thank you for giving me more context on the subject. I wasnt ready kneejerk at them until I had some context for there claims and the counter claims thereof. I can safely say that ubi plays the money game safer than jackdaniels, microsoft, and Purina combined.