Ukraine

Kwak

Elite Member
Sep 11, 2014
2,331
1,862
118
Country
4

US officials believe that Russian intelligence officers directed a Russian White supremacist group to carry out a letter-bombing campaign that rocked Madrid late last year, targeting the prime minister, the American and Ukrainian Embassies as well as the Spanish defense ministry, according to current and former US officials.
...
The State Department designated the White supremacist group, the Russian Imperial Movement, as a global terror organization in 2020. The group is believed to have connections to Russian intelligence agencies and has been used as a proxy force before, current and former officials familiar with US intelligence told CNN.
...
The White supremacist group, RIM, has associates across Europe and operates military-style training centers within Russia but is not formally affiliated with the Russian government. But, one former US official said, “There’s no question that RIM operates in Russia because it’s allowed to operate in Russia.”
 

Dalisclock

Making lemons combustible again
Legacy
Escapist +
Feb 9, 2008
11,286
7,082
118
A Barrel In the Marketplace
Country
Eagleland
Gender
Male


And you get a tank, and you get a tank, and everyone gets a tank!

On the lighter side of the News, Russia announced it will blow up 3 more schools and 7 more hospitals in Ukraine to protest this.-Probably a joke but probably not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gergar12

Dalisclock

Making lemons combustible again
Legacy
Escapist +
Feb 9, 2008
11,286
7,082
118
A Barrel In the Marketplace
Country
Eagleland
Gender
Male
Most basic explanation I can think of: Tanks (and military equipment in general) require fuel, ammo and spare parts to operate optimally. In general nations want to use weapons that require similar ammo types, fuel and some degree of similar parts(so they can be used interchangeably). So while you can, hypothetically operate say 10 different types of tanks, that might mean you're also having to maintain a source of 10 different types of ammo, fuel and spare parts. Most nations tend to operate like one or two types of tanks for this very reason.

Where this relates to the above is basically:

-Ukraine, being an Ex-member of the Soviet Union, inherited a bunch of soviet type tanks when the USSR fell. T-64, T-72, T-80, etc. This generally isn't too bad since Soviet tanks are generally close to each other in what they require to operate.

-With the 2022 invasion, Ukraine captured a lot of hardware from Russia(including tanks) and has been getting a lot of Poland's sizable Soviet tank arsenal(which they also inherited). Poland, whose national motto might as well be "Fuck Russia", is backfilling those tanks with anything they can get their hands on(They just ordered 1000+ South Korean tanks and are having a factory set up in poland to make them faster). Ukraine is happy because they're keeping their tank forces somewhat up to snuff despite taking losses and Poland is happy because they can buy new toys and have their hand-me downs killing Russians by proxy. Everybody wins!

-However with it being difficult to keep finding Soviet type tanks from friendly nations(and Russia not being willing to sell Ukraine any more tanks for some reason), NATO nations have been offering their own to some extent. Germany offering/allowing leopard tanks to be sent to Ukraine, and the US offering Abrams tanks, complicates the process of getting more parts, ammo and spare parts which are generally not compatible with Soviet designs.

For example: Soviet/Russian Tanks are designed around the 125mm tank shell(of which there are many, many types) while NATO tank designs are designed 120mm tank shells(of which there there are also many, many types). Clearly those aren't compatible with each other, but Ukraine, being a Soviet type tank operator has the advantage of being able to use captured Russian Ammo.

I'm using tanks for the sake of simplicity but NATO has been offering a lot of equipment that is what Ukraine needs but is not terribly compatible with the existing soviet type equipment, thus creating complicating supplying and maintaining such equipment. This a notably a problem with artillery because the Ukrainians are getting newer NATO artillery but they don't quite have the ammo stockpiles to use it as much as they like until more of it is supplied(though apparently factories making such shells are running full tilt at this point) and while they have Soviet type artillery to go around, they're also running low on ammo for those as well because they've been using it up.

For some really fun facts, during WW2, the German army had a MASSIVE issue with this kind of stuff, where they had a lot of varied weapons but very little of it was compatible and a lot of it was a pain to fix and maintain. Even better, at one point the German army operated like 50 different types of truck, none of which were compatible with each other, so if they broke, a lot of times they were just abandoned because they couldn't fix them. And take a wild guess how they're moving the fuel, ammo and spare parts for trucks and tanks and so on? Yep, those trucks they can't easily fix. Enjoy thinking about that for a bit. Now imagine you're the guy who needs to make sure all the trucks are in working order so the trucks can deliver the ammo, fuel and spare parts to keep not only the trucks but also the tanks and such working. Welcome to the job of a logistics officer, where you have to keep track of all this shit in an environment where people keep trying to blow up your stuff(those jerks).

There's a famous quote, attributed to Gen. Omar Bradley, that goes. "Amateurs talk strategy. Professionals talk logistics" for this very reason. Okay, so maybe that wasn't very basic, but logistics is a complex subject that rarely gets talked about outside of military nerds, logistics types and Hearts of Iron players. It's tricky to explain a way that's both succinct and gives a decent picture of why it matters. Also I listen to way too much Perun and that guy LOVES to talk logistics.
 
Last edited:

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,167
969
118
Country
USA
For some really fun facts, during WW2, the German army had a MASSIVE issue with this kind of stuff, where they had a lot of varied weapons but very little of it was compatible and a lot of it was a pain to fix and maintain.
This is the origin story of one of the world's most famous guns (and the best weapon in Resident Evil 4), the Red 9. The Mauser C96 was barreled for 7.63mm ammo, but the German army needed more pistols in WWI, and they were already using 9mm ammo, so they wanted C96s that fired 9mm. They bought a ton of them barreled to fire 9mm, but the end result of that was having created an identical gun to weapons already on the battlefield that fires totally different ammo. So to keep people from trying to load the new guns with the old ammo, they burned a giant red number 9 into the grips. Thus, the Red 9.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Silvanus

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
19,133
3,873
118
This is the origin story of one of the world's most famous guns (and the best weapon in Resident Evil 4), the Red 9. The Mauser C96 was barreled for 7.63mm ammo, but the German army needed more pistols in WWI, and they were already using 9mm ammo, so they wanted C96s that fired 9mm. They bought a ton of them barreled to fire 9mm, but the end result of that was having created an identical gun to weapons already on the battlefield that fires totally different ammo. So to keep people from trying to load the new guns with the old ammo, they burned a giant red number 9 into the grips. Thus, the Red 9.
Well, not sure I'd say the Big Red 9 was one of the world's most famous guns, but yeah.

Though, in WW2, it wasn't just domestic production, the Germans had conquered loads of territory and inherited lots of, for example, French equipment, and factories making French equipment. They also had occupired Polish factories making Radom pistols for the Germans (and secretly making Radom pistols for the resistance until they got caught)

Interestingly, the German military procurement only applied to the military, not various paramilitary groups like the police or SS, who had to source their weapons from wherever they could. Instead of getting the best and most modern equipment, the SS got all sorts of weird stuff, some of it new and some of it captured from whoever they'd just conquered.

Germany had made SMGs to sell to the fascists in Spain during their civil war, some of which were captured by the communists who later fled to France. They got used by the French because they didn't have enough of their own MAS-38s, and then got captured by the Germans and re-used by them.

Over in the UK, they'd been using .455 Webleys, but then decided that .455 was too powerful for people to use with the small amount of training that they could get in big wars and had moved to .38 revolvers, but were using 9mm for their SMGs. And the homeguard was using whatever they could get, shotguns and US 30.06 weapons mixed in with .303s.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

The Rogue Wolf

Stealthy Carnivore
Legacy
Nov 25, 2007
16,868
9,549
118
Stalking the Digital Tundra
Gender
✅
Most basic explanation I can think of: Tanks (and military equipment in general) require fuel, ammo and spare parts to operate optimally. In general nations want to use weapons that require similar ammo types, fuel and some degree of similar parts(so they can be used interchangeably). So while you can, hypothetically operate say 10 different types of tanks, that might mean you're also having to maintain a source of 10 different types of ammo, fuel and spare parts. Most nations tend to operate like one or two types of tanks for this very reason.

Where this relates to the above is basically:

-Ukraine, being an Ex-member of the Soviet Union, inherited a bunch of soviet type tanks when the USSR fell. T-64, T-72, T-80, etc. This generally isn't too bad since Soviet tanks are generally close to each other in what they require to operate.

-With the 2022 invasion, Ukraine captured a lot of hardware from Russia(including tanks) and has been getting a lot of Poland's sizable Soviet tank arsenal(which they also inherited). Poland, whose national motto might as well be "Fuck Russia", is backfilling those tanks with anything they can get their hands on(They just ordered 1000+ South Korean tanks and are having a factory set up in poland to make them faster). Ukraine is happy because they're keeping their tank forces somewhat up to snuff despite taking losses and Poland is happy because they can buy new toys and have their hand-me downs killing Russians by proxy. Everybody wins!

-However with it being difficult to keep finding Soviet type tanks from friendly nations(and Russia not being willing to sell Ukraine any more tanks for some reason), NATO nations have been offering their own to some extent. Germany offering/allowing leopard tanks to be sent to Ukraine, and the US offering Abrams tanks, complicates the process of getting more parts, ammo and spare parts which are generally not compatible with Soviet designs.

For example: Soviet/Russian Tanks are designed around the 125mm tank shell(of which there are many, many types) while NATO tank designs are designed 120mm tank shells(of which there there are also many, many types). Clearly those aren't compatible with each other, but Ukraine, being a Soviet type tank operator has the advantage of being able to use captured Russian Ammo.

I'm using tanks for the sake of simplicity but NATO has been offering a lot of equipment that is what Ukraine needs but is not terribly compatible with the existing soviet type equipment, thus creating complicating supplying and maintaining such equipment. This a notably a problem with artillery because the Ukrainians are getting newer NATO artillery but they don't quite have the ammo stockpiles to use it as much as they like until more of it is supplied(though apparently factories making such shells are running full tilt at this point) and while they have Soviet type artillery to go around, they're also running low on ammo for those as well because they've been using it up.

For some really fun facts, during WW2, the German army had a MASSIVE issue with this kind of stuff, where they had a lot of varied weapons but very little of it was compatible and a lot of it was a pain to fix and maintain. Even better, at one point the German army operated like 50 different types of truck, none of which were compatible with each other, so if they broke, a lot of times they were just abandoned because they couldn't fix them. And take a wild guess how they're moving the fuel, ammo and spare parts for trucks and tanks and so on? Yep, those trucks they can't easily fix. Enjoy thinking about that for a bit. Now imagine you're the guy who needs to make sure all the trucks are in working order so the trucks can deliver the ammo, fuel and spare parts to keep not only the trucks but also the tanks and such working. Welcome to the job of a logistics officer, where you have to keep track of all this shit in an environment where people keep trying to blow up your stuff(those jerks).

There's a famous quote, attributed to Gen. Omar Bradley, that goes. "Amateurs talk strategy. Professionals talk logistics" for this very reason. Okay, so maybe that wasn't very basic, but logistics is a complex subject that rarely gets talked about outside of military nerds, logistics types and Hearts of Iron players. It's tricky to explain a way that's both succinct and gives a decent picture of why it matters. Also I listen to way too much Perun and that guy LOVES to talk logistics.
In short: If you thought getting parts for your 1972 Fiat Spider was tough....
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

Ag3ma

Elite Member
Jan 4, 2023
2,574
2,208
118
There's a famous quote, attributed to Gen. Omar Bradley, that goes. "Amateurs talk strategy. Professionals talk logistics" for this very reason.
One might argue that this is a development of Napoleon's quote from a simpler era: "An army marches on its stomach". Having the best army in the world doesn't help you if it lacks the supplies to move and fight. At which point we bring up the irony of his march on Moscow.

Ultimately, if Ukraine thinks it has any future outside Russia's orbit, it would have to eventually re-arm with Western equipment anyway. (Well, I guess it could go with China, but...). Wartime is maybe not the ideal time to do that, but if needs must...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

Dalisclock

Making lemons combustible again
Legacy
Escapist +
Feb 9, 2008
11,286
7,082
118
A Barrel In the Marketplace
Country
Eagleland
Gender
Male
One might argue that this is a development of Napoleon's quote from a simpler era: "An army marches on its stomach". Having the best army in the world doesn't help you if it lacks the supplies to move and fight. At which point we bring up the irony of his march on Moscow.

Ultimately, if Ukraine thinks it has any future outside Russia's orbit, it would have to eventually re-arm with Western equipment anyway. (Well, I guess it could go with China, but...). Wartime is maybe not the ideal time to do that, but if needs must...
It's true. Food is also part of logistics but it's arguably easier to go steal food from the locals to feed your army then it is to scavenge tank parts from the locals.

In the preindustrial era it was you really just needed to source food and medicine since you could probably use any weapons you found if you really had to(musket and cannon balls could be made from melting down other metals you looted).

It's less easy to just find JP5 for an Abrams or specific parts for a leopard in the field, aside from damaged or destroyed examples of the same(and Armies will try to recover damaged vehicles and either place them back into service or strip them for parts).
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
19,133
3,873
118
It's true. Food is also part of logistics but it's arguably easier to go steal food from the locals to feed your army then it is to scavenge tank parts from the locals.
One reason why you really want the fighting to be in the other country, sure you don't have the local support, but pillaging makes a mess of things.

In the preindustrial era it was you really just needed to source food and medicine since you could probably use any weapons you found if you really had to(musket and cannon balls could be made from melting down other metals you looted).
Salt used to be seriously important for preserving food, during the US War of Independence the British deliberately limited the rebel's supply of salt, the cost went up sixteen fold and Washington had to buy it on the black market.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

RhombusHatesYou

Surreal Estate Agent
Mar 21, 2010
7,595
1,914
118
Between There and There.
Country
The Wide, Brown One.
It's less easy to just find JP5 for an Abrams or specific parts for a leopard in the field, aside from damaged or destroyed examples of the same(and Armies will try to recover damaged vehicles and either place them back into service or strip them for parts).
And if they can't be recovered they'll strip out what they can and stick thermite charges on any important bits left behind.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
8,476
7,051
118
Country
United States
It's true. Food is also part of logistics but it's arguably easier to go steal food from the locals to feed your army then it is to scavenge tank parts from the locals.

In the preindustrial era it was you really just needed to source food and medicine since you could probably use any weapons you found if you really had to(musket and cannon balls could be made from melting down other metals you looted).

It's less easy to just find JP5 for an Abrams or specific parts for a leopard in the field, aside from damaged or destroyed examples of the same(and Armies will try to recover damaged vehicles and either place them back into service or strip them for parts).
There's a reason a huge chunk of Sun Tzu's writings for idiot nobles who got handed armies amounted to "hey idiot, 100,000 men aren't going to be able to scavenge for food"
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
12,093
6,376
118
Country
United Kingdom
So. 31 Abrams and 14 Leopards. Plus almost certainly additional Leopards from elsewhere in Eastern Europe now that the German veto has been put aside.

Enough to break stalemate, and reclaim occupied territory?
 

Dalisclock

Making lemons combustible again
Legacy
Escapist +
Feb 9, 2008
11,286
7,082
118
A Barrel In the Marketplace
Country
Eagleland
Gender
Male
One reason why you really want the fighting to be in the other country, sure you don't have the local support, but pillaging makes a mess of things.
Yeah, this does not endear you to the locals at all(Hey Russia, didn't see you there) and this can be a very large problem if you're planning to keep the place. Because presumably you want the place your conquering to be productive for you and that's less effective if you're stealing all the food for your army
 

Dalisclock

Making lemons combustible again
Legacy
Escapist +
Feb 9, 2008
11,286
7,082
118
A Barrel In the Marketplace
Country
Eagleland
Gender
Male
So. 31 Abrams and 14 Leopards. Plus almost certainly additional Leopards from elsewhere in Eastern Europe now that the German veto has been put aside.

Enough to break stalemate, and reclaim occupied territory?
It certainly doesn't hurt Ukraine's chances to retake the Donbass, aside from the logistical issues. Obviously the Ukrainian tankers being properly trained on the western tanks will make a lot difference in how effective they are. I would also throw in it depends what models they are and what weapons packages are coming with.

IIRC, the Abrams was initially designed to fight Cold War era T-72's though more advanced models are probably more then a match for T-90's. This begs the question of what the Russian tank force in the Donbass looks like. If there are a lot of T-90s, it'll make rougher going then a force composed of T-64's and T-72's. I'm going to guess that the Russian force doesn't have a ton of T-90's based solely on my opinion as a guy on the internet(AKA I have no clue, but I would think we'd have seen more of them if there were).

I don't know enough about Leopards to speculate and I'm not going to even entertain the idea of T-14's because there's little evidence those are actually going to fight in Ukraine in enough numbers to matter. Russia apparently has been touting that T-14's are coming and to my knowledge no one has sighted one on the battlefield to date. UK intelligence are claiming that the T-14's are basically being used for propaganda purposes. I don't have any opinion about how credible UK MOD Intelligence is.


 
Last edited:

Ag3ma

Elite Member
Jan 4, 2023
2,574
2,208
118
So. 31 Abrams and 14 Leopards. Plus almost certainly additional Leopards from elsewhere in Eastern Europe now that the German veto has been put aside.

Enough to break stalemate, and reclaim occupied territory?
I've read some experts suggest Ukraine needs about 100 to get an advantage. It wants about 300.

I don't know enough about Leopards to speculate and I'm not going to even entertain the idea of T-14's because there's little evidence those are actually going to fight in Ukraine in enough numbers to matter. Russia apparently has been touting that T-14's are coming and to my knowledge no one has sighted one on the battlefield to date.
There's various mixed information, but I don't think they're past the advanced testing phase and they've had lots of production problems and delays. I'm not sure the T-14 will see meaningful service for something like two years, and even then not that many will be available. I suspect the Russians may also be extremely wary of them being captured as that'll hand all the info on their new kit straight to the West.

Finally, of course, it may not actually be that good, either: more hype than effectiveness.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

RhombusHatesYou

Surreal Estate Agent
Mar 21, 2010
7,595
1,914
118
Between There and There.
Country
The Wide, Brown One.
Ultimately, if Ukraine thinks it has any future outside Russia's orbit, it would have to eventually re-arm with Western equipment anyway. (Well, I guess it could go with China, but...). Wartime is maybe not the ideal time to do that, but if needs must...
With Putin's territorial ambitions there's no way Ukraine would have gotten the chance to do a peacetime re-arming. The slightest hint of it would've had Putin sending troops over the border and barking about Ukraine preparing for a US-backed invasion of Russia because of course he would.