Ukraine

[Gergar12]

So CNN decided to be very dumb with its defense analysis. Their idea is that since US shipyards and US-made destroyers cost so much let's use foreign build destroyers in SK(South Korea), and Japan.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/02/asia/japan-south-korea-naval-shipbuilding-intl-hnk-ml-dst/index.html

There is only one problem, those destroyers they mentioned; the Kongo Maya and the Sejong the Great were outdated. They had PESA radars, and their Aegis systems were a couple of iterations old. But of course, Sejong the Great has 128 missiles in the VLS cells vs China's 112(Also larger) so let's run with that story(likely funded by SK and Japan's military shipbuilding companies). Now the Jones Act in my opinion is nationalist trash due to driving up the cost of merchant vessels in the US, but don't use less capable destroyers to maintain your interest. The US Flight 3 Burke Destroyers have better internal systems than both of them and of course, cost more. This is what you want in a future destroyer, not older PESA radar destroyers.

DDG(X) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now as for building them in Japan and SK, I would argue that's a better idea, but you would be giving away shipbuilding know-how to your shipbuilding competitors for only monetary gain which is a crap idea. Shipbuilding and experience are long-term goods, money is short-term, liquid, and easily spent.

A better idea would be to make the DDG(X) an F-35-like idea where nations share in the production of it via I make this you make that, and past the legal hurdles to do so. (While retaining the full knowhow in the US)

 

[Dalisclock]

So CNN decided to be very dumb with its defense analysis

Back in the 1990's I used to remember CNN being a decent news source. I don't know if it was actually was or I was just young and stupid back then.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Now as for building them in Japan and SK, I would argue that's a better idea, but you would be giving away shipbuilding know-how to your shipbuilding competitors for only monetary gain which is a crap idea. Shipbuilding and experience are long-term goods, money is short-term, liquid, and easily spent.

Not to mention once you've let part of your ship building capacity atrophy it'll take more money to get it back up and running than whatever you 'saved' in the first place.

The other issue is the US's tech transfer laws potentially preventing designers from incorporating restricted tech into any foreign-build designs.

A better idea would be to make the DDG(X) an F-35-like idea where nations share in the production of it via I make this you make that, and past the legal hurdles to do so. (While retaining the full knowhow in the US)

Only this time have a good product at the end of it all? Maybe something that can still be used during lightning storms? That'd be keen.

 

[Ag3ma]

Not to mention once you've let part of your ship building capacity atrophy it'll take more money to get it back up and running than whatever you 'saved' in the first place.

The other issue is the US's tech transfer laws potentially preventing designers from incorporating restricted tech into any foreign-build designs.

Yes - and it's not just the shipbuilding capacity but the R&D and engineering experience as well. That can take years to get up to speed and may be liable to produce inferior designs through inexperience. There's a strong rationale in defence for countries to build their own stuff wherever possible, with close and safe allies as a second choice, and it's worth paying more for that.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

There's a strong rationale in defence for countries to build their own stuff wherever possible, with close and safe allies as a second choice, and it's worth paying more for that.

Yep, even if it's licenced stuff from other nations there's still several good reasons to build locally... assuming there's local ability to do so.

 

[Satinavian]

Which is why i don't see any future destroyer cooperation similar to the F-35.

Fighter planes, yes. Those are way too expensive and risky for most nations. But destroyers ? Pretty much every country with a navy has their own shipbuilding industry and doesn't really need to outsource it.

 

[Gordon_4]

Which is why i don't see any future destroyer cooperation similar to the F-35.

Fighter planes, yes. Those are way too expensive and risky for most nations. But destroyers ? Pretty much every country with a navy has their own shipbuilding industry and doesn't really need to outsource it.

*stares at Austal* Yeah, you say that........

 

[Absent]

Russia-Ukraine war as it happened: Kremlin infighting ‘destroying Russian state’, says Wagner head

Mercenary leader Yevgeny Prigozhin criticises factionalism within Russian hierarchy

www.theguardian.com

Prigozhin said a dispute between him and Chechen forces, who are also fighting alongside the Russian army in Ukraine, had been resolved. But the Wagner chief blamed the discord on unidentified Kremlin factions – which he calls “Kremlin towers”. Their scheming had got so out of hand that Putin had been forced to scold them at a security council meeting, he said. In a message posted by his press service, Prigozhin said: "Pandora’s Box is already open – we are not the ones who opened it. Some Kremlin tower decided to play dangerous games. Dangerous games have become commonplace in the Kremlin towers ... they are simply destroying the Russian state." While he did not identify the Kremlin faction he said that if it continued its attempts to sow discord, it would have “hell to pay”. The Kremlin did not comment on his remarks.

Could they please game of throne each others off ?

 

[Ag3ma]

Fighter planes, yes. Those are way too expensive and risky for most nations. But destroyers ? Pretty much every country with a navy has their own shipbuilding industry and doesn't really need to outsource it.

I suspect it's more complex than that as there can be a lot of "know how" in building military equipment that differentiates it from civilian. Basic concepts may be sound, but they may also have flaws from lack of experience which significantly degrade effectiveness.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

*stares at Austal* Yeah, you say that........

At least the fronts don't fall off... so far.

 

[Satinavian]

I suspect it's more complex than that as there can be a lot of "know how" in building military equipment that differentiates it from civilian. Basic concepts may be sound, but they may also have flaws from lack of experience which significantly degrade effectiveness.

Yes, but there are far more counties building their own warships than ones building their own tanks, let alone planes.

 

[Ag3ma]

Ukraine has launched attacks at multiple points along the frontline, mostly around Donetsk oblast.

Russia claims all attacks have been repulsed with heavy Ukrainian losses, Ukraine is saying nothing, and Russian chatter from miltiary bloggers and Prigozhin is reporting some very modest Ukrainian gains. Russia also claims Leopard (presumably Leopard 2) tanks have taken part.

Almost everyone seems to agree none of these are the stuff of the much heralded major offensive, but probably a preamble - testing parts of the Russian line and/or feints to conceal the real target.

 

[Dalisclock]

Almost everyone seems to agree none of these are the stuff of the much heralded major offensive, but probably a preamble - testing parts of the Russian line and/or feints to conceal the real target.

That would be my take. Fuck with the Russians so they have no clue where the offensive is coming, see if they find any weak links in the chain that they can break. We'll probably see soon enough where the main thrust is coming, hopefully into the Russian Rear.

 

[Silvanus]

Wagner captures Russian commander as Prigozhin feud with army escalates

Lt Col Roman Venevitin seen telling interrogator he ordered troops to shoot at convoy of mercenaries

www.theguardian.com

A Lt. Colonel of the Russian Army-- and Brigade commander-- has been captured by the neo-Nazi Wagner private military company. They then released a video in which he admits to an interrogator that he ordered Russian soldiers to fire on Wagner when drunk, but later apologised.

Almost have no words. Not sure what's more incredible-- the fact a Russian commander would be so drunk and moronic as to order an intentional attack on their own allies, or the fact that the Russian government is so permissive of the Nazi PMC that they're allowed to kidnap and interrogate senior Russian personnel.

((And I do keep reiterating the neo-Nazi bit whenever there's news about Wagner, because it bears repeating that Russia funds, directs, and enthusiastically utilises by far the world's largest neo-Nazi paramilitary in half a dozen conflicts across the world, while claiming to be fighting against Nazism)).

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Almost have no words. Not sure what's more incredible-- the fact a Russian commander would be so drunk and moronic as to order an intentional attack on their own allies, or the fact that the Russian government is so permissive of the Nazi PMC that they're allowed to kidnap and interrogate senior Russian personnel.

I mean, this kind of thing happens when a military force is treated like a big piggy bank for a bunch of kleptocrats rather than something that needs to be maintained and kept cohesive. And then you throw actual mercenaries into the mix, and wonder if maybe the RF should have copied the US's anti-Pinkerton act.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

 

[Seanchaidh]

Western news sources say a dam blew up in Kherson, and that Russia is the one that blew it up... according to Kiev. The same Kiev that tried to start WW3 over misattributing its own missile hitting Poland to Russia. Anyway, If I'm not mistaken this is the same dam that Russia's capture early in the war allowed Crimea to have water again. In any case, its operation is a necessary part of, among other things, Crimea having water.

((And I do keep reiterating the neo-Nazi bit whenever there's news about Wagner, because it bears repeating that Russia funds, directs, and enthusiastically utilises by far the world's largest neo-Nazi paramilitary in half a dozen conflicts across the world, while claiming to be fighting against Nazism)).

Somehow these neo-Nazis have restraint enough not to cover themselves in SS iconography, unlike their AFU counterparts. Meanwhile, you favor giving billions of dollars of heavy weaponry and other support to the Nazis that haven't shown such restraint.

 

[Absent]

Somehow these neo-Nazis have restraint enough not to cover themselves in SS iconography, unlike their AFU counterparts.

Don't have enough restrain to not invade and exterminate a neighbouring country but that's not really the issue for you is it.

 

[Satinavian]

Western news sources say a dam blew up in Kherson, and that Russia is the one that blew it up... according to Kiev.

Western news sources accurately report that Russia and Ukraine blame each other. As usual, they are quite reliable.

Anyway, If I'm not mistaken this is the same dam that Russia's capture early in the war allowed Crimea to have water again.

Yes. It is the same dam that Russia took and mined early in the war. And it got blown up just as the Ukraine established a bridgehead on the other side of the river and on islands downstream. At a time when they launched an offensive and Russias forces are really stretched thin and would greatly benefit from making an advance along a huge part of the frontline impossible.
But sure, we are not certain who blew up the dam at the moment. But we will. Both sides reports very different kinds of damage. The Russian claims that the actual power plant is mostly intact, while Ukraine claims it is completely destroyed by an explosion from the inside. Won't take too long to be certain.

 

[Ag3ma]

Western news sources say a dam blew up in Kherson, and that Russia is the one that blew it up... according to Kiev. The same Kiev that tried to start WW3 over misattributing its own missile hitting Poland to Russia. Anyway, If I'm not mistaken this is the same dam that Russia's capture early in the war allowed Crimea to have water again. In any case, its operation is a necessary part of, among other things, Crimea having water.

It might well supply Crimea with water.

However, the more immediate concern for Russia is that they are expecting a Ukrainian counteroffensive, and this is an obvious measure to take to impede a potential offensive in the region. Let's also not forget that Ukraine previously blocked water supplies to Crimea after 2014, and it's not like Crimeans died of thirst (their crops, however, fared much less well).

Thus although it could have been Ukraine, on balance it makes more sense if Russia detonated it.