Ukraine

[TheMysteriousGX]

In 2015, Mongolia announced its intention to be permanently neutral. As far as I know its borders have not changed since then.

So, that was *after* Russia already took chunk of Ukraine? Awesome.

Let me just look at a map and see where Mongolia is...

EDIT: Lmao, Mongolia entered NATO in 2003. Hilarious. So very glad I actually went to look it up

 

[Seanchaidh]

They both obviously hold provisions supposed to ensure the security of both parties. Don't be obtuse.

The Budapest Memorandum is about Nuclear non-proliferation and ensures the security of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Ukraine. It doesn't provide any security guarantees to Russia.

Oh, this reasoning is on the basis of not using "economic pressure" to change the politics of the country? You're stretching that beyond recognition if you think it was intended to prohibit sanctions as a response to rampant law-breaking, brutality, and the dismantling of democracy in that country.

Sanctions are one of the most acute forms of economic pressure and what you are describing is using them to influence the internal politics of a country. I don't think the Budapest Memorandum says anything about "so long as your government meets our standards". I don't know, maybe I'm wrong: please show me where if so.

Hah! No, Ukraine fighting separatist insurgents within its own internationally-recognised territory (including recognised by Russia!) does not constitute a break of Minsk.

Uh, what? What exactly do you think Minsk was for? And who do you think the parties to it were? Each and every Minsk agreement was supposed to involve a ceasefire between the Ukrainian armed forces and the Donbass republics. But then they didn't actually stop fighting. What the fuck would have been the point of the DPR and LPR signing it if they weren't going to stop getting killed while waiting for the Ukraine to implement the other provisions? In any case, the Ukraine didn't ever seem to make progress on its other Minsk obligations, so it was entirely reasonable for the DPR and LPR after eight years of violence to abandon the framework and ask for help.

 

[Seanchaidh]

EDIT: Lmao, Mongolia entered NATO in 2003. Hilarious. So very glad I actually went to look it up

No, it did not. A NATO non-member partner is not a country that has "entered NATO". Australia, Japan, Pakistan and some others have this status. It does not appear to mean terribly much.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

No, it did not. A NATO non-member partner is not a country that has "entered NATO".

Oh sure, it just has NATO defense agreements, NATO training, NATO development, NATO backing, and deploys it's military on NATO engagements. It's definitely not in NATO, it's just one of NATO's Global Partners

 

[Seanchaidh]

Oh sure, it just has NATO defense agreements, NATO training, NATO development, NATO backing, and deploys it's military on NATO engagements. It's definitely not in NATO

You really want to double down on this one? OK.

I'm sure Trunkage will be surprised to learn that Australia actually is a part of NATO, then. Because they are also a "non-member partner" and have done some things involving NATO. Russia also helped NATO in the same war that Mongolia helped NATO with (Afghanistan). Non-member partners are not afforded the protection of NATO's mutual defense guarantees and are not counted among the thirty NATO members. But NATO did some things with Covid19 measures in Mongolia, so I guess who is to say?

 

[Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)]

Lukashenko plans Moldova invasion as Belarus President releases secret military plans | World | News | Express.co.uk

BELARUS President Alexander Lukashenko appeared to release military plans on TV which include invading the Transnistria region of Moldova.

www.express.co.uk

Apparently they are also planning to invade Moldova and they accidentally revealed this on a live stream.

Lukashenko is straight-up the Mussolini of this relationship

 

[bluegate]

Lukashenko plans Moldova invasion as Belarus President releases secret military plans | World | News | Express.co.uk

BELARUS President Alexander Lukashenko appeared to release military plans on TV which include invading the Transnistria region of Moldova.

www.express.co.uk

Apparently they are also planning to invade Moldova and they accidentally revealed this on a live stream.

Lukashenko is straight-up the Mussolini of this relationship

Hey, Western World Leaders, it's time to wake up and do some serious pushing back against these fascist pigs.

 

[CM156]

Lukashenko plans Moldova invasion as Belarus President releases secret military plans | World | News | Express.co.uk

BELARUS President Alexander Lukashenko appeared to release military plans on TV which include invading the Transnistria region of Moldova.

www.express.co.uk

Apparently they are also planning to invade Moldova and they accidentally revealed this on a live stream.

Lukashenko is straight-up the Mussolini of this relationship

"President Putin, Belarus has joined the war!"
"Send two divisions to deal with them."
"You don't understand, they joined on our side!"
"My God, send ten divisions!"

 

[Silvanus]

The Budapest Memorandum is about Nuclear non-proliferation and ensures the security of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Ukraine. It doesn't provide any security guarantees to Russia.

You've been claiming endlessly thus far that the presence of nuclear weapons in Ukraine would constitute an unacceptable national security risk to Russia.

Sanctions are one of the most acute forms of economic pressure and what you are describing is using them to influence the internal politics of a country. I don't think the Budapest Memorandum says anything about "so long as your government meets our standards". I don't know, maybe I'm wrong: please show me where if so.

No, that depends very much on what the sanctions involve. A freezing of assets on an oligarch's personal overseas assets (as happened with Lukashenko) will have barely any impact on the population of a country. Restricting its major export will have a dramatic impact on the population. They're leagues apart, but both "sanctions".

And "our standards" are literally "don't rig an election and institute a dictatorship", which I don't think is asking too much.

Uh, what? What exactly do you think Minsk was for? And who do you think the parties to it were? Each and every Minsk agreement was supposed to involve a ceasefire between the Ukrainian armed forces and the Donbass republics. But then they didn't actually stop fighting. What the fuck would have been the point of the DPR and LPR signing it if they weren't going to stop getting killed while waiting for the Ukraine to implement the other provisions? In any case, the Ukraine didn't ever seem to make progress on its other Minsk obligations, so it was entirely reasonable for the DPR and LPR after eight years of violence to abandon the framework and ask for help.

Yeah, mixed up Minsk and Budapest there. I'll edit the original.

Yeah, Ukraine and the Donbas republics both broke it. As did Russia throughout the same period, by arming and sponsoring the latter. Does this mean Russia's far more enormous breaches-- through outright mass invasion and annexation-- can just be handwaved? Why does this mean we should place more trust in their willingness to approach things "diplomatically"? It still demonstrates they have zero intention to respect legal obligations or agreements they make.

 

[Agema]

Lukashenko plans Moldova invasion as Belarus President releases secret military plans | World | News | Express.co.uk

BELARUS President Alexander Lukashenko appeared to release military plans on TV which include invading the Transnistria region of Moldova.

www.express.co.uk

Apparently they are also planning to invade Moldova and they accidentally revealed this on a live stream.

Lukashenko is straight-up the Mussolini of this relationship

Well of course, if you're rebuilding the Russian Empire.

Moldova (minus Transnistria) was, if I remember rightly, populated by Moldavians (proto-Romanians, along with Wallachians) and conquered by Russia from the Ottoman Empire in the early 1800s, at which point the Russians started Russifying it. This was interrupted after WW1, when it was handed to Romania, and then it went back to Russia after WW2 where they continued Russifying it. Upon independence, Moldova appears to be sort of moving back towards Romania and unification has been discussed.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

You really want to double down on this one? OK.

I'm sure Trunkage will be surprised to learn that Australia actually is a part of NATO, then. Because they are also a "non-member partner" and have done some things involving NATO. Russia also helped NATO in the same war that Mongolia helped NATO with (Afghanistan). Non-member partners are not afforded the protection of NATO's mutual defense guarantees and are not counted among the thirty NATO members. But NATO did some things with Covid19 measures in Mongolia, so I guess who is to say?

Okay, fine. So Mongolia is protected by a vow of neutrality and nothing else, sure.

When did Ukraine decide to not be neutral, again?

 

[Generals]

Lukashenko plans Moldova invasion as Belarus President releases secret military plans | World | News | Express.co.uk

BELARUS President Alexander Lukashenko appeared to release military plans on TV which include invading the Transnistria region of Moldova.

www.express.co.uk

Apparently they are also planning to invade Moldova and they accidentally revealed this on a live stream.

Lukashenko is straight-up the Mussolini of this relationship

Clearly yet another victim of NATO!

 

[Seanchaidh]

You've been claiming endlessly thus far that the presence of nuclear weapons in Ukraine would constitute an unacceptable national security risk to Russia.

I've been arguing about the confluence of that possibility with being a member of a large and hostile military alliance that has the protection of the nuclear arsenal of the United States. In any case, I've been told that nukes on one's border aren't a big deal, and it's a violation of national sovereignty to have a problem with it, so it must not count. The Budapest memorandum has no guarantees of non-aggression against Russia.

? Why does this mean we should place more trust in their willingness to approach things "diplomatically"? It still demonstrates they have zero intention to respect legal obligations or agreements they make.

Maybe diplomacy could have been tried sometime in the last twenty three years after the issue was raised. Maybe it could have been tried in the last 14 after Putin explained exactly what would set Russia off. Maybe the US and friends could have followed the advice of distinguished professors of international relations like John Mearsheimer in 2015, and refrained from trying to develop Ukraine into a western bulwark against Russia. Maybe the United States could have decided not to lend its support to a coup against an elected pro-Russian leader in Ukraine. The way you prove that a leader isn't interested in diplomacy is not ignoring them until they get frustrated and lash out.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Okay, fine. So Mongolia is protected by a vow of neutrality and nothing else, sure.

When did Ukraine decide to not be neutral, again?

Hard to say when they decided, but they certainly indicated it by announcing an intention to join NATO. And it's not exactly encouraging that officials of the Obama administration decided who their government was going to be in 2014.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Hard to say when they decided, but they certainly indicated it by announcing an intention to join NATO. And it's not exactly encouraging that officials of the Obama administration decided who their government was going to be in 2014.

So...Ukraine is as much a member of NATO as Mongolia or Australia is, but it's bad this time because...?

NATO recognises Ukraine as Enhanced Opportunities Partner

On Friday (12 June 2020), the North Atlantic Council recognised Ukraine as an Enhanced Opportunities Partner. This status is part of NATO’s Partnership Interoperability Initiative, which aims to maintain and deepen cooperation between Allies and partners that have made significant contributions...

www.nato.int

 

[Hades]

Maybe diplomacy could have been tried sometime in the last twenty three years after the issue was raised. Maybe it could have been tried in the last 14 after Putin explained exactly what would set Russia off. Maybe the US and friends could have followed the advice of distinguished professors of international relations like John Mearsheimer in 2015, and refrained from trying to develop Ukraine into a western bulwark against Russia. Maybe the United States could have decided not to lend its support to a coup against an elected pro-Russian leader in Ukraine. The way you prove that a leader isn't interested in diplomacy is not ignoring them until they get frustrated and lash out.

That's an uh....''interesting'' frame. The west forcing Ukraine to be a bulwark against Russia rather than Ukraine itself choosing to join the western world rather than be chained to the oppressive and dying power that is Russia. All this um....''enlightened centrism'' achieves is force Ukraine into poverty and decline against its will. Sacrificing Ukraine to appease Putin and hope that's the end of his neo imperial ambitions.

 

[XsjadoBlayde]

Lukashenko plans Moldova invasion as Belarus President releases secret military plans | World | News | Express.co.uk

BELARUS President Alexander Lukashenko appeared to release military plans on TV which include invading the Transnistria region of Moldova.

www.express.co.uk

Apparently they are also planning to invade Moldova and they accidentally revealed this on a live stream.

Lukashenko is straight-up the Mussolini of this relationship

I would advise caution with that particular news outlet, as they are known here for being the most militant of the right-wing tabloids and have been prefacing so many of their article headlines with a massive "WORLD WAR 3" the second a diplomat so much as coughs in the wrong direction, for however many years now. They are truly awful in these such topics, always itching for war with every implied breath.

-

More suspicious accounts to be cautious of

 

[thebobmaster]

That's an uh....''interesting'' frame. The west forcing Ukraine to be a bulwark against Russia rather than Ukraine itself choosing to join the western world rather than be chained to the oppressive and dying power that is Russia. All this um....''enlightened centrism'' achieves is force Ukraine into poverty and decline against its will. Sacrificing Ukraine to appease Putin and hope that's the end of his neo imperial ambitions.

It would certainly provide peace in our time, wouldn't it?

 

[Trunkage]

Reagan hated the USSR.

Good news. Fascists hate it too

 

[Trunkage]

We're just going to ignore the impact of the War of Austrian Succession and the Treaty of Paris in the formation of the US and Canada, therefore leading to the US and Canadian entry into the BTO, therefore leading to the eventual and formal creation of NATO, aren't we.

(Pretend I could be bothered to copy-paste the contents of the encyclopedia britannica entries for said events here)

Wait. Those Encyclopedias still exist?