Ukraine

Gergar12

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The problem American policymakers have is that despite Russia having a crappy military right now. Russia has escalation dominance and a escalate to deescalate strategy that even I will admit works well on risk-averse people in Washington as it should since no one wants tactical nukes flying around. But that means the Russians have a high propensity to kill everyone in the world than the US does and higher risk tolerance for nuclear war. You really have to wonder what goes on in the minds of the Russian political elite. Let's look like assholes who want to murder everyone over a country when climate change will make Russia into a more productive country anyways.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Well, let's start about the Jacobinmag's article and how they mention glorifying Nazi collaborators while Ukraine actually glorified those who resisted against the Soviets (which in some cases overlapped). The overlap doesn't make it any less dishonest from the Jacobinmag to present the move as one to glorify nazi's. The goal is clearly not to glorify Nazism but to glorify resistance against an aggressor.
And honestly this obvious dishonest bias made me stop halfway the article. and up to half the article I have yet to come across any reason which would justify the Russian invasion, as such it is typical irrelevant diversion from the issue at hand; Russia invaded Ukraine without (valid) reasons.

And the first "fair" article starts with a lot of NATO nonsense. Which is, again, a totally useless diversion as it was not NATO which was attacked and Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 before NATO membership was brought up by the Ukrainian government.
As for Ukraine's alleged refusal to give the breakaway regions the autonomy they demanded; so what? It was a military coup backed by Russia, which even sent troops to the Donbass. Boris Nemtsov even got assassinated because he dared trying to expose just how much Russia was involved in that coup: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32703353

"But Mr Yashin, who presented the report, said Russian soldiers and equipment were decisive to securing all major victories claimed by the pro-Russian rebels in Donetsk and Luhansk.

"All the separatists' key successes were secured by Russian army units," he said."


The invasion of the Donbass and the Minsk accords was a trojan Horse in Russia's mind and since Ukraine didn't want it to be a Trojan horse there was no agreement over its implementation:


"Ukraine sees the 2015 agreement as an instrument to re-establish control over the rebel territories.

It wants a ceasefire, control of the Russia-Ukraine border, elections in the Donbas, and a limited devolution of power to the separatists – in that order.

Russia views the deal as obliging Ukraine to grant rebel authorities in Donbas comprehensive autonomy and representation in the central government, effectively giving Moscow the power to veto Kyiv’s foreign policy choices.

Only then would Russia return the Russia-Ukraine border to Kyiv’s control."



And honestly I stopped there. We already have had Sean who has tried with all the stupid whataboutism and diversion tactics. In the end Ukraine didn't attack Russia and was therefor invaded without any provocation. And since everything that you can complain about in Ukraine is far worse in Russia (democratic values, respect of human rights, freedom of the press, etc.) there is no possible reason to defend this invasion. In the end the issue is Black and White, Putin is a well known USSR nostalgic who wants to restore Russia's greatness and since economically it's a mess he's doing it the imperialist way through a geo-political sphere of influence. He got mad he didn't get Ukraine and now decided to take it the hard way. Everything he says about NATO and Fascists is all propaganda to justify his war that is only about his ego and the dreams he has about Russia.
All those arguments have been mentioned dozens of times already. There is nothin g new to "learn" from your links.

Maidan as CIA takeover of Ukraine ? No, certainly not. They might have meddled but Yanukovych was ousted willingly by the Ukrainians after giving them plenty of reasons. And as the later free elections show the US did never really control Ukraine

Nazis in Ukraine ? Yes. But not more than basically everywhere else and without political influence.

Nato expanded ? Sure it did. Because the new countries were afraid of Russia. They certainly feel vindicated now.


So basically none of those points has much value in it. And even if they did, none would justify an invasion.
I don't think anyone would disagree that the Ukraine is complex, that it doesn't have significant problems with corruption and elements of the far right. But the presentation from certain sectors of the left are indistinguishable from Kremlin propaganda. And, ironically, have probably been effectively funded and supported by the Kremlin due to its own longstanding form of interference in Western politics.

1)
Let's take this idea of glorifying Nazis. The context here is that many Ukrainians resented what they viewed as occupation by the Soviet Union. After the collapse of the Russian Empire, many Ukrainians battled for independence, both proto-states and an anarchist collective. After these were violently suppressed by the Bolsheviks, the next shot that Ukrainians had of independence was alliance with Nazi Germany. Obviously, this is going to taint Ukrainian nationalists of the era - but that's what those nationalists had to work with due to their circumstances.

Plenty of other states have complex relationships here. The Baltic states have similar issues, and Finland also joined in with the Nazis to recover territories stolen by Russia after the Russo-Finnish war. Also, contextually, a lot of great leaders have major flaws, especially when we look back into further history. One might note, for instance, many US Founding Fathers were unrepentant slave owners. And yet few would argue that completely negates everything else they stood for, or requires us to repudiate them in entirety. And yet that is what Russian propaganda and Russian stooges on the Western left would ask of us, because that's a form of complexity and shades of grey inconvenient to them.

2)
Of course the USA "interferes". So does everyone. The BBC broadcasts around the world in large part as a projection of British values, RT does the same for Russia and Al Jazeera for Qatar. Political contacts, human development and media flows in with agendas to win hearts and minds. Let's take Ukraine: a balanced view of the influence flowing into Ukraine would reveal massive Russian efforts at every level - political corruption, media influence, in the end sending government advisors to tell president Yanukovych how to best suppress a protest with brute force, and offering direct military support to ensure his rule.

The tacit message of these left pieces is that whilst The West should stand right back and respect these countries' self-determination by not so much as opening a single think tank that advocates democracy, implicitly Russia is free to run riot. If it is bribing politicians, having pet media magnates to aggressively push pro-Russian policy, that's merely to be passively regretted and maybe one day nice Mr. Putin will develop a conscience and stop. Or he's only doing because we do it (lol). It could kindly be called naive. It becomes a little more uncomfortable when these people go further, attempt to blur lines and present what is mostly routine "hearts and minds" media that is relatively overt and benign (if still self-interested) with alleged shadow campaigns to fund neo-Nazi coups.

* * *

The stupid, misguided, blinkered and hopelessly entrenched sector of the Western left has spent so long railing against the capitalist system that its got itself hopelessly stuck. They are as prime an example as it gets of a rigid, Manichean notion of good and bad - and "we" (The West) are the bad guys. This idea of "oh, it's complicated" is a truism that has the real function of disguising their inability to effectively process the human right abuses and rampant aggression of authoritarian, non-Western state actors opposed to the USA and its allies.
When did I say Russia was justified in invading? When did I make a big fuss over Nazis? All I did was post a few articles about how the war is not unprovoked.
 

Generals

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When did I say Russia was justified in invading? When did I make a big fuss over Nazis? All I did was post a few articles about how the war is not unprovoked.
And all we did was debunk the war is not unprovoked by addressing the point made by the articles you linked.
Also trying to argue the invasion was provoked is a clear attempt at justifying it (at least to an extent).
 

Trunkage

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It is unprovoked.
Here's what I'll say. There was some nudging by various parties. Including Putin. In response, Putin comes out shooting

It unprovoked as in the response is stupendously out of whack for the provocation. It would be getting a mozzie bite and using Napalm to burn down your house to get it. Yeah, there was an inciting incident. For a much smaller response

So I listened to Oliver Stone in a very recent podcast. He was talking about how the US media was making stuff up about Putin. Turning him into a villian and whatnot. Probably true. Then he talked about Putin being a reasonable statemen and that if the US only had a statrmen, this would all be solved

So apparently the meaning of statemen. Because I thought a statemen would NOT to over react to situations and make things way worse. Willing to compromise.

I would now pick Trump as being more statemanly than Putin. He had Iranian gunboats shooting his people. He threatened war. On live TV. Then he realise that this was a massive over reation and thought better of it. Still live on TV.

Oliver Stone got me to respect Trump a little bit. Not because he really deserved it. He made an incrediblely stupid inflammatory comment. Because Stone dropped the bar for praise so low even Stalin could clear it.
 

Terminal Blue

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Learn the difference between acting like something and declining to respond to some weirdo's asinine assumptions.
Think of all the things you have accused people of in this thread.

Most of those people have provided ample evidence of why your beliefs about them are wrong. I don't see anyone simply repeating things they've heard on television without critical engagement, I don't see anyone trying to claim that the USA is blameless.

A few pages back, I referred to the example of a CIA agent who used to abduct homeless people off the streets and torture them to death in order to teach police forces in US-backed puppet states how to torture people. I have no problem pointing out that the war on terror was an atrocity and that Bush and Blair are war criminals. That's not a concession I find in any way difficult to make. In fact, I can concede literally any of the points you have made. I lose absolutely nothing by doing so, because I'm not actually the person you're pretending I am.

The fact that you will concede nothing. The fact that you will blindly insist on the absolute innocence, blamelessness and complete lack of responsibility of the Russian government, a blatantly neo-fascist government that actively oppresses its own people in ways even the USA, barely functioning democracy as it is, would not dare, is not difficult to see through. The fact that you won't even concede what I have just said, despite the fact it is absolutely true, is not difficult to see through.

I have several friends living in Russia right now. They are frightened and despairing. Their government is trying to restrict their social media usage so that this fear and despair stays hidden, but they have VPNs. They have friends in Ukraine who they are frightened for. Some are worried about their economic futures, both because of sanctions and because they had economic ties to Ukraine which are now completely uncertain. They are trying to stock up on food and household essentials, in case availability gets worse. At least one has experienced organized Russophobic harassment on social media. Some are talking about trying to escape, others are talking about why they can't.

They still know what their government is, and they hate what it is. Even facing government suppression and the breakdown of families and friendship circles, they are still determined to assign blame where it is deserved, rather than where it might be convenient.

These are the people you're attempting to speak for. They deserve better.
 
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Silvanus

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The Russian army continues to shell buildings used to house displaced civilians in Mariupol, including a theatre and swimming pool currently used to house children, the elderly, and pregnant women.


They have also prevented aid from entering, and prevented evacuation vehicles from leaving. Its becoming clear that this isn't just indiscriminate; it appears to be intentionally focused on causing civilian casualties.
 

Hawki

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Phoenixmgs

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It is unprovoked.
Not True.

And all we did was debunk the war is not unprovoked by addressing the point made by the articles you linked.
Also trying to argue the invasion was provoked is a clear attempt at justifying it (at least to an extent).
How so? If someone is say making fun of you and you punch them, you're in the wrong for assault even though they provoked you. I just posted some information about the situation and it seems like everyone thinks I'm on Putin's side or something. Hypothetically, lets say there's 10 points of contention in this situation and if I say Putin is right on 2 points of the 10, that immediately puts me in Putin's camp?
 

Generals

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Not True.
It is actually true.

How so? If someone is say making fun of you and you punch them, you're in the wrong for assault even though they provoked you. I just posted some information about the situation and it seems like everyone thinks I'm on Putin's side or something. Hypothetically, lets say there's 10 points of contention in this situation and if I say Putin is right on 2 points of the 10, that immediately puts me in Putin's camp?
Well yes, and if someone emphasizes that "making fun" part as the provocation which lead to the reaction they're likely trying to justify or excuse the reaction. At the very least to a certain extent.
Short of calling the war a "special military operation" your sources repeated a lot of Kremlin propaganda. It's more like saying he's right on 8 out of 10 points. In which case, yes you're likely on his camp, even if unwillingly.
 

XsjadoBlayde

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Former Washington state Rep. Matt Shea, the far-right Republican who was found by a House-commissioned investigation to have planned and participated in domestic terrorism, is in a small town in Poland with more than 60 Ukrainian children, trying to facilitate their adoption in America.

Shea has said his group helped rescue 62 children and their two adult caregivers from an orphanage in Mariupol, the city in southeastern Ukraine that has been bombarded by Russian forces.

But international agencies say, with the chaos and confusion of war, now is not an appropriate time for international adoptions from Ukraine. And Shea’s presence, and the lack of information surrounding the American group he’s with, has raised concerns among some residents of Kazimierz Dolny, the small Polish town where the children are staying at a hotel-guesthouse.

“I asked him many times, ‘What are you going to do with these children?’ and he told me that it’s not my business,'” Weronika Ziarnicka, an aide to the mayor of Kazimierz Dolny, said of Shea. “I got the feeling in my gut that something’s wrong with this guy; he didn’t want to tell me his last name.”

Shea, who rarely speaks to mainstream media, did not respond to requests for comment.

Speaking on a Polish television show, “Idź Pod Prąd,” Shea said he was working with a Texas group called Loving Families and Homes for Orphans (he also called the group Loving Homes and Families for Orphans).

“It is a hosting organization that hosts Ukrainian orphans in America with Ukrainian families with the intent that ultimately that ends in adoption,” Shea said on the show. “It’s been doing this hosting program for several years.”

Loving Families and Homes for Orphans appears to have a website, but it is nonfunctional.

The group, based in Fort Worth, registered with the Texas secretary of state in 2018. No such group is registered as an adoption agency with the Texas Department of Health and Human Services. The group is also not registered with the Intercountry Adoption Accreditation and Maintenance Entity, the group that oversees American agencies involved in international adoption.

A nonprofit group called Loving Families and Homes for Orphans was registered in Florida just one month ago. It lists its purpose as: “To provide loving and caring homes and families for the orphans from other countries for a short time period.”

The group was registered by Irina N. Sipko of Palm Coast, Florida. Sipko did not return requests for comment.

Artur Pomianowski, the mayor of Kazimierz Dolny, said in a post on Facebook that he’d visited the children and they are safe and being well cared-for. He also said the “case is being investigated and clarified by the relevant authorities” and that the kids would not leave Kazimierz Dolny without consent of the authorities.

“I do not know what Matt Shea and his friends are doing here around children,” Pomianowski said in an email. “Mr. Shea and his friends have given us some contradictory information and, for that reason, it is difficult for us to trust them.”

In a statement posted to Facebook by Dom Dziennikarza, the journalists’ guesthouse where the children are staying, Loving Families and Homes for Orphans says it is a Christian organization based in Texas and that Sipko is the director.

“We are in direct contact with the governments of Ukraine and the United States, supported by the highest levels of politicians, international and local church leaders as well as dozens of companies from Ukraine, the USA and Poland,” the statement says.

The U.S. State Department did not directly respond when asked if they’d been in contact with Loving Families, but a spokesperson warned: “Only accredited Adoption Service Providers are authorized to facilitate intercountry adoptions of children to the United States.”

It can be extremely difficult in wartime to determine whether children who appear to be orphans truly are eligible for adoption, the State Department said.

“It is not uncommon in dangerous situations for parents to send their children out of the area, for safety reasons, or for families to become separated during an emergency,” the State Department spokesperson said. “Even when a child’s parents have died, children are often cared for by other relatives. Also, many children living in orphanages in Ukraine are not orphans.”

The National Council for Adoption said this is not the time for U.S. citizens to be considering adoption from Ukraine, as many families fleeing the war become separated.

“It is paramount that the identities of these children and their families be clearly established, and their social, legal, and familial status is fully verified by governmental authorities,” the council said. “For most of these children, we cannot do that at this time.”

The United Nations High Commission on Refugees and UNICEF put out a joint statement calling for temporary and foster care for children but saying “Adoption should not occur during or immediately after emergencies.”

Shea, who represented Spokane Valley in the state House for 12 years, opted not to seek reelection in 2020, after the House-commissioned report found he had planned and participated in domestic terrorism against the United States with his involvement in a trio of standoffs against the government.

That report alleged that Shea assisted “in the planning and preparation” of the 2016 armed takeover at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Eastern Oregon. It also examined Shea’s travel to the 2014 armed standoff in Bunkerville, Nevada, and a 2015 conflict in Bonner County, Idaho.

Following the report, Shea was suspended by the House Republican caucus, and urged to resign, although they declined to expel him from the Legislature.

Shea, who wants to create a 51st state in Eastern Washington, once distributed a four-page outline called “Biblical Basis for War” and has long been linked to Christian extremist movements. Shea’s wife, Viktoriya, was born in Ukraine.

Shea, a lawyer, also became pastor of Covenant Church of Spokane in 2020. But he was “let go” after less than a year, the church’s prior pastor told The Spokesman-Review. He then started his own congregation, On Fire Ministries, where he is senior pastor.

On the Polish television show, which was broadcast last week, Shea appears with Polish pastor Pawel Chojecki, a right-wing commentator who’s spoken disparagingly about Catholics, and whom Shea has previously conducted interviews with.


Shea, identified as a pastor and “former congressman,” says on the show that his group was asked to help get the children out of Ukraine. As he answers each question, he checks off an item on the papers in front of him.

Shea’s interviewer asks about “haters” who allege that he engaged in domestic terrorism and that his organization has “no legal basis for caring for children.”

“The interaction that I’ve had with terrorists is fighting against them in Iraq and Bosnia,” says Shea, an Army veteran. “What is very upsetting is that elements here in Poland, using Russian-style propaganda, have brought in politics and religion into a humanitarian issue.”

Shea says that among the children who arrived in Poland in early March, there are three groups.

The first group, Shea said, was in the process of being adopted by Ukrainian families in America, but had not gotten the approval of Ukrainian courts, “and now that’s not possible due to the war.”

The second group, he said, had been hosted in America, but were at an earlier stage in the process. And the third group had not begun the adoption process, he said.

“We want to make sure that we establish, essentially, normalcy in their lives,” Shea said. “We have been working with the Ukrainian government, we have been working with the American government, this entire process.”

Ziarnicka, the mayoral aide, said she first went to check on the children after she was contacted by a group of local volunteers who were concerned about the situation.

When she talked with Shea, she said he “got really angry,” refused to tell her his last name and asked to see her ID.

“I said ‘You are American on Polish ground, why should I show you my document?'” Ziarnicka said. “I just want to talk to people who have the legal right to these children.”

Shea told her that he’d spoken with the mayor, Ziarnicka said, and that everything was OK.

“And I know it’s not true because the mayor is the one that asked me to go,” she said.

Another local volunteer, who asked to remain anonymous because she was targeted and harassed when she previously spoke publicly about the situation, said they tried to find documentation supporting the claims of Shea’s group, but found none.

“Whenever anyone wants to speak with Ukrainian supervisors or spend time with the kids, they need to have permission from those Americans, which is really weird,” she said.

When Ziarnicka eventually found Shea’s last name, from some of the local volunteers, she Googled him and grew more concerned reading about his past.

She said Shea accused her of being anti-American, anti-Protestant and a “Russian troll.”

“I don’t know what’s going to happen next, but things are getting really ugly,” she said.
Jfc there's little room for good intentions, and unwise to assume then
 
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crimson5pheonix

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Jfc there's little room for good intentions, and unwise to assume then
I know it's not necessarily or even likely connected, but suspicious news with another christian run Texas orphanage engaging in child sex trafficking...
 
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