Ukraine

[Silvanus]

^ to be clear, as I think the above post ran away with me a bit: I don't think NATO boots on the ground is the way to go. There are legitimate fears on the Russian side, which have been exploited and manipulated by United Russia and the corporatists to maintain personal political careers. We don't gain safety or security by playing into them and provoking extreme measures. We gain safety and security by making clear the only mutually beneficial 'out' is non-aggression, withdrawal, and respect for territorial integrity.

 

[meiam]

Fixed that for you

Ehhh I'd say the better way would have been to bomb the shit out of Assad when he used chem weapon, that's probably when Putin decided he could be bolder.

 

[Jux]

I guess the question for me is: IF Putin wants war with NATO, what the fuck is stopping him? He's all but claimed Russia is at War with the West, yet does nothing directly to NATO. He's apparently blamed NATO nations for his pipeline blowing up and does fucking nothing, despite that being ample casus belli if true. Ukraine keeps taking his precrious "Russia" away by the day and they continue to do this. I don't think he's dumb enough to believe NATO is gonna sit back and watch a nuke go off without doing anything, so if he wants to avoid a war with NATO, a nuke would be a great way to screw that up too.

He doesn't want a war with NATO, but he does want the appearance of one, for the sake of political propagandizing at home. Taking an L against Ukraine is a lot different than taking an L against NATO. The former exposes Russia as a paper bear and puts a spotlight on Russia's shortcomings. The latter can be sold to the populace as a reasonable explanation for the loss while at the same time helping more consolidation of power.

 

[Seanchaidh]

 

[warmachine]

You shouldn't post those without comment, otherwise it looks like you're endorsing the outright lie, rather than showing how lies can be manufactured. The pictures obviously come from this video [age restricted].

 

[Terminal Blue]

Is there a viable path for the Ukrainian government to do that without triggering a civil conflict between the volunteer battalions and the state?

I don't think it would be a particular problem.

Let's use Azov as an example since it's the Russian media favorite. Azov was formed as a paramilitary group by members of a far-right movement in 2014. However, it was integrated into the national guard in the same year. As an integrated regiment, is is part of the existing military command structure. Its officers are appointed by the military. It is reliant on logistical support from other parts of the armed forces, and it has to recruit openly from the general population. There was also some degree of purging of its previous membership, although it's not clear how much. In short, it's not clear, at this point, how connected the Azov regiment is to the civilian Azov movement, but they are taking orders from the government.

A lot of things will change after the war ends. Normally, you can't just hop on a plane, fly to a country and join its military. Ukraine has relaxed laws on allowing foreigners to serve in its armed forces because of the war, but when the war is over those laws will come back in and foreign volunteers will need to apply for citizenship, leave the army or be moved into some kind of foreign legion setup. I would guess that most will be given preferential treatment if they choose to apply for citizenship (by spilled blood and all that) but this brings me to the third point.

All the government would have to do is go through the relatively small number of foreign volunteers, find the relatively small number of them who have a history of far-right criminal behavior (which Ukraine's western allies would be happy to help with since they're also monitoring those people) and just pick out a few obvious bad apples. It's beneficial for everyone. The Russians get to pretend they defeated Nazism forever, the Ukrainians get to take a strong stance against dangerous foreign elements and those incorporated regiments who do have histories with the far right, like Azov, get to cleanse their image a bit.

There really isn't much danger of the Azov regiment running off into the mountains and calling themselves the wolverines. The danger when the war is over, and it's a danger faced by many countries not just Ukraine, is that experienced military veterans who either were or have become radicalized form smaller political militias or cells and use their knowledge to carry out acts of terrorism. But that's also why it's generally a good idea to get radicalized people out of your armed forces if you can afford to do so.

 

[tstorm823]

You shouldn't post those without comment, otherwise it looks like you're endorsing the outright lie, rather than showing how lies can be manufactured. The pictures obviously come from this video [age restricted].

At a certain point, people need to realize if Sean posts a tweet, it's always to deceive you.

 

[Eligius]

Do you have no shame spreading such an outright lie?

 

[Dalisclock]

Do you have no shame spreading such an outright lie?

Press x to doubt

 

[Silvanus]

Fuck russia. Jesus.
-
“Neighbours constantly heard screams from there. Investigators found a terrible torture chamber in the village,” he said, translated from Ukrainian.
View attachment 7124
Among the discoveries were gas masks, pulled dentures and sex toys. Picture: Serhii Bolvinov

“The police are well aware of the torture of being buried alive and the use of a gas mask with a smouldering rag.

“A dildo and a box with torn dentures were also found in the torture chamber.”

He said investigators were aware of the identity of the victims.

The National Police of Ukraine officers documented the alleged war crimes.


A statement issued online said the Russians had driven the locals out of their homes, settling there themselves.

“The police found another torture chamber in the cellar, where locals were kept in inhumane conditions. People were intimidated, beaten and abused,” it said.

There was also evidence of live burials, according to Anton Gerashchenko, adviser to the Minister of Internal Affairs of Ukraine.

https://www.news.com.au/world/neighbours-constantly-heard-screams-from-russian-torture-chamber/news-story/6ece62bc5e50c6d400cdd02562d22fa0

An update on this: BILD is today carrying an interview with a local dentist, who says he believes the dentures in these publicised photographs were actually looted from his store, not pulled as a method of torture.


He states other residents had reported the image of the pulled teeth had been used as an intimidation tactic.

Small relief, anyway.

 

[Burnhardt]

What kind of professional dentist keeps their patient's pulled out teeth, and for what reason.

 

[MrCalavera]

What kind of professional dentist keeps their patient's pulled out teeth, and for what reason.

I might have an idea why someone would hold on onto gold teeth. Other than that: weird hobby?

 

[Seanchaidh]

^ to be clear, as I think the above post ran away with me a bit: I don't think NATO boots on the ground is the way to go. There are legitimate fears on the Russian side, which have been exploited and manipulated by United Russia and the corporatists to maintain personal political careers. We don't gain safety or security by playing into them and provoking extreme measures. We gain safety and security by making clear the only mutually beneficial 'out' is non-aggression, withdrawal, and respect for territorial integrity.

Do you believe that safety and security is an overriding concern for NATO?

 

[Elijin]

It's amusing to see how quiet Sean has gotten, and how toothless the few comments that do get uttered have become. Getting hard to defend simping for daddy putin???

 

[Kwak]

Do you believe that safety and security is an overriding concern for NATO?

Well yeah, it's on their webpage. What else would it be?



What are today's security challenges?
Today, we face a much broader range of threats than in the past. To the east, Russia has become more assertive with the illegal annexation of Crimea and destabilization of eastern Ukraine, as well as its military build-up close to NATO’s borders. To the south, the security situation in the Middle East and Africa has deteriorated, causing loss of life, fueling large-scale migration flows and inspiring terrorist attacks. NATO is responding by reinforcing its deterrence and defence posture, as well as supporting international efforts to project stability and strengthen security outside NATO territory. We are also confronted with the spread of weapons of mass destruction, cyber attacks and threats to energy supplies as well as environmental challenges with security implications. These challenges are too big for any one country or organization to handle on its own, so NATO is working closely with its network of partners to help tackle them.

 

[Silvanus]

Do you believe that safety and security is an overriding concern for NATO?

NATO is a conglomeration of 30 states, and there are different priorities within that. The European members are motivated by the military reality that each of them individually would have a very tough time defending itself if it came under attack-- and most would have no chance at all against a nuclear threat if they were on their own. Safety and security are overriding concerns for them-- particularly when a neighbour is engaged in invasion and annexation of a state on their doorstep. They know that if they were not members of the alliance, they would be equally vulnerable.

Why do you think Sweden and Finland rushed to join just now? They weren't members before, because they thought threats to their territory were firmly in the past... then they watched a fellow non-NATO member get invaded right next to them, and then Russia publicly and directly threatened them by name. Damn right they filed those applications for self-preservation.

For the US it's very different. They're under no realistic threat of territorial invasion and are able to defend themselves unilaterally from almost anything conceivable. The US is still playing the spheres-of-influence game, though they also recognise that international conflicts go a lot more smoothly (or, well, less costly for them) if allies are involved.

Well yeah, it's on their webpage. What else would it be?

Sure, but that's not the greatest evidence. I'm sure the Russian government have stuff about upstanding governance or providing for their people on their website, but they don't have the slightest interest in those.

 

[Kwak]

Sure, but that's not the greatest evidence. I'm sure the Russian government have stuff about upstanding governance or providing for their people on their website, but they don't have the slightest interest in those.

It's more and better evidence than what I assume is the pure conspiracy theory conjecture which asserts they don't care about those things.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

An update on this: BILD is today carrying an interview with a local dentist, who says he believes the dentures in these publicised photographs were actually looted from his store, not pulled as a method of torture.


He states other residents had reported the image of the pulled teeth had been used as an intimidation tactic.

Small relief, anyway.

Bild is a far right propaganda rag, they're not to be trusted about these things.

 

[Silvanus]

Bild is a far right propaganda rag, they're not to be trusted about these things.

It seems to be about equivalent to The Sun here in the UK. So yeah, a right-wing rag, but unlikely to simply invent this wholesale.

 

[Dalisclock]

It's amusing to see how quiet Sean has gotten, and how toothless the few comments that do get uttered have become. Getting hard to defend simping for daddy putin???

I mean, the great Russian army spends most of it's time lately fleeing wherever it's been engaged and apparently Russia is now the top supplier of Ukrainian tanks due to capture and abandonment on the Russian Army's part. There's not much to trumpet for a tankie and all you're left with is conspiracy theories about black gay NATO witches dressed in Ukrainian uniforms(don't ask).