Undertale May Be This Year's Best Written Game

jhoroz

New member
Mar 7, 2012
494
0
0
1981 said:
Nuuu said:
There is also a lot of hype around the game right now that it can't live up to. People forget that this is a $10 indie game, not a AAA game with a several million dollar budget. Yes, it will be forgotten after a while, but that isn't a big deal or a bad thing.
The game's story is powerful, but obviously it's not going to make as much of a long-lasting impression as MGSV or Mother 3.
I agree with the first part. Innovation? Unexpected depth? Humour? The Witcher 3 has all of those things and a striking 3D world. But I don't think Undertale will be forgotten anytime soon. It reminded me of To The Moon, which is also more complex than it seems. The fact that I still remember it means that a low-budget game can make a lasting impression.
Witcher really didn't innovate anything besides pushing the boundary for open world RPGs and its combat was just repetitive as anything in Undertale. Going into combat in the Witcher every time felt like a chore so you could eventually get to the next interesting story bit. You could say the same about Undertale, but I was actually engaged and enjoyed the way each new boss fight had a twist on the whole bullet hell mechanic. Fact of the matter is, I don't think recommending Undertale as an RPG is a good idea, since it mainly uses its RPG as an appearance to criticize the genre.

And the humour in the Witcher is very hit or miss, mainly due to with the fact that it's heavily dependent on the quality of the voice acting.
 

jhoroz

New member
Mar 7, 2012
494
0
0
Nuuu said:
There is also a lot of hype around the game right now that it can't live up to. People forget that this is a $10 indie game, not a AAA game with a several million dollar budget. Yes, it will be forgotten after a while, but that isn't a big deal or a bad thing.
The game's story is powerful, but obviously it's not going to make as much of a long-lasting impression as MGSV or Mother 3.
I dunno about Mother 3, since I never played it, but the only long-lasting impression MGSV made on me is what a horrid, forgettable Metal Gear it was.
 

Thanatos2k

New member
Aug 12, 2013
820
0
0
Redryhno said:
Thanatos2k said:
Ah, so first it's "just sitting around and spamming healing is boring" and now it's "I totally never healed once until the final boss." Sure bro. We believe you. You're the best at Undertale. It was so easy it's a bad game. Everyone is totally wrong about how awesome it is. You were right!
Dude, I watched three people play through it on Pacifist before I
Oh, you ruined the game for yourself by watching people play it instead of playing it. No wonder it seemed boring. Had you played it, it would have been a LOT better, like all games. You completely missed out on one of the biggest strengths of the game - player agency. You let other people make your decisions for you. That's not how you play this game through the first time.
 

Nuuu

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2011
530
0
21
jhoroz said:
Nuuu said:
There is also a lot of hype around the game right now that it can't live up to. People forget that this is a $10 indie game, not a AAA game with a several million dollar budget. Yes, it will be forgotten after a while, but that isn't a big deal or a bad thing.
The game's story is powerful, but obviously it's not going to make as much of a long-lasting impression as MGSV or Mother 3.
I dunno about Mother 3, since I never played it, but the only long-lasting impression MGSV made on me is what a horrid, forgettable Metal Gear it was.
Haven't actually played MGSV myself so i kinda just made an assumption. MGS3 would probably be a better example or some other old, high budget game people remember. It differs for everybody, some games just envelope larger groups than others.
 

Redryhno

New member
Jul 25, 2011
3,077
0
0
loa said:
All of these things are covered under two things, "THEME" and "SETTING".

In other RPGs, it isn't important why the monster wants to kill you, because they're not the focus of the story. In Trails in the Sky, you fight the Sky Bandits because you're looking for your dad and they're the best lead you can get, but they're paranoid as hell because you're a part of a lawbringer organization basically and they stole shit from you. Dragon Age you fight the Darkspawn because they are corrupted beings that have lost their minds and are controlled by an old dragon that they dug out of the ground that has also become corrupted. Shadowrun the corporations are trying to kill you because you're digging into their dirty past that may cause a .00001 drop in stock. Elder Scrolls is just a brutal world, you're a means to survival for some things, you're an obstacle to their created purpose to another, and still others you're just there and they're very angry individuals.

Undertale is not unique in the "enemies" having motivations, it is unique in that it FOCUSES solely on them as the main point of the game. And it does that very well.

Thanatos2k said:
Redryhno said:
Thanatos2k said:
Ah, so first it's "just sitting around and spamming healing is boring" and now it's "I totally never healed once until the final boss." Sure bro. We believe you. You're the best at Undertale. It was so easy it's a bad game. Everyone is totally wrong about how awesome it is. You were right!
Dude, I watched three people play through it on Pacifist before I
Oh, you ruined the game for yourself by watching people play it instead of playing it. No wonder it seemed boring. Had you played it, it would have been a LOT better, like all games. You completely missed out on one of the biggest strengths of the game - player agency. You let other people make your decisions for you. That's not how you play this game through the first time.
As I said up above, it's always the player's fault for many fans defending Undertale. It's never the game having shitty elements. It's always the player not "getting it". It's always the player "letting others make their choices for them". It can't possibly be the game having problems. Can't possibly be the game not being the perfect game using every possible tool games have at their disposal perfectly and at the perfect times. Undertale is a masterpiece, and anyone that says different just isn't playing it right.

And I didn't know there was a demo, game just appeared out of nowhere to me. I stopped following Homestuck YEARS ago, I don't have near the same love for Earthbound others do, and so I had no clue of who Toby Fox was or what he was capable of. Just a bunch of acclaim for the game and I don't like throwing away money on something I might not like(and don't you dare say "it's just ten bucks"). I already made that mistake too many times.

EDIT: Also, dude, the game plays out like a Fairy Tail arc, there's not a huge amount to spoil once you see the signs early on.
 

Thanatos2k

New member
Aug 12, 2013
820
0
0
Redryhno said:
Thanatos2k said:
Redryhno said:
Thanatos2k said:
Ah, so first it's "just sitting around and spamming healing is boring" and now it's "I totally never healed once until the final boss." Sure bro. We believe you. You're the best at Undertale. It was so easy it's a bad game. Everyone is totally wrong about how awesome it is. You were right!
Dude, I watched three people play through it on Pacifist before I
Oh, you ruined the game for yourself by watching people play it instead of playing it. No wonder it seemed boring. Had you played it, it would have been a LOT better, like all games. You completely missed out on one of the biggest strengths of the game - player agency. You let other people make your decisions for you. That's not how you play this game through the first time.
As I said up above, it's always the player's fault for many fans defending Undertale. It's never the game having shitty elements. It's always the player not "getting it". It's always the player "letting others make their choices for them". It can't possibly be the game having problems. Can't possibly be the game not being the perfect game using every possible tool games have at their disposal perfectly and at the perfect times. Undertale is a masterpiece, and anyone that says different just isn't playing it right.

And I didn't know there was a demo, game just appeared out of nowhere to me. I stopped following Homestuck YEARS ago, I don't have near the same love for Earthbound others do, and so I had no clue of who Toby Fox was or what he was capable of. Just a bunch of acclaim for the game and I don't like throwing away money on something I might not like(and don't you dare say "it's just ten bucks"). I already made that mistake too many times.

EDIT: Also, dude, the game plays out like a Fairy Tail arc, there's not a huge amount to spoil once you see the signs early on.
I'm not talking about "the player" - I'm talking specifically about you. It's YOUR fault for not playing the game properly. And as said up above, people who played the game like you (or not played the game as the case appears to be) always seem to be the ones who have the complaints.
 

Redryhno

New member
Jul 25, 2011
3,077
0
0
Thanatos2k said:
Redryhno said:
Thanatos2k said:
Redryhno said:
Thanatos2k said:
Ah, so first it's "just sitting around and spamming healing is boring" and now it's "I totally never healed once until the final boss." Sure bro. We believe you. You're the best at Undertale. It was so easy it's a bad game. Everyone is totally wrong about how awesome it is. You were right!
Dude, I watched three people play through it on Pacifist before I
Oh, you ruined the game for yourself by watching people play it instead of playing it. No wonder it seemed boring. Had you played it, it would have been a LOT better, like all games. You completely missed out on one of the biggest strengths of the game - player agency. You let other people make your decisions for you. That's not how you play this game through the first time.
As I said up above, it's always the player's fault for many fans defending Undertale. It's never the game having shitty elements. It's always the player not "getting it". It's always the player "letting others make their choices for them". It can't possibly be the game having problems. Can't possibly be the game not being the perfect game using every possible tool games have at their disposal perfectly and at the perfect times. Undertale is a masterpiece, and anyone that says different just isn't playing it right.

And I didn't know there was a demo, game just appeared out of nowhere to me. I stopped following Homestuck YEARS ago, I don't have near the same love for Earthbound others do, and so I had no clue of who Toby Fox was or what he was capable of. Just a bunch of acclaim for the game and I don't like throwing away money on something I might not like(and don't you dare say "it's just ten bucks"). I already made that mistake too many times.

EDIT: Also, dude, the game plays out like a Fairy Tail arc, there's not a huge amount to spoil once you see the signs early on.
I'm not talking about "the player" - I'm talking specifically about you. It's YOUR fault for not playing the game properly. And as said up above, people who played the game like you (or not played the game as the case appears to be) always seem to be the ones who have the complaints.
Did you read ANY part of the rest of the post? Because you're doing the exact same thing again and again. The game has FLAWS. GIGANTIC FLAWS. That's all I've said. I haven't said it was bad, I haven't said it doesn't deserve praise, I said it isn't as perfect as people keep talking about. And no matter the criticism, it's because I didn't play it correctly.

But whatevs, I won't be playing it again for sure now, fanbase is nearly as fervent as Star Citizen after all...
 

Thanatos2k

New member
Aug 12, 2013
820
0
0
Redryhno said:
Did you read ANY part of the rest of the post? Because you're doing the exact same thing again and again. The game has FLAWS. GIGANTIC FLAWS. That's all I've said. I haven't said it was bad, I haven't said it doesn't deserve praise, I said it isn't as perfect as people keep talking about. And no matter the criticism, it's because I didn't play it correctly.
I'm suggesting people who didn't play the game aren't in any position to legitimately talk about what are flaws in the game.

Plus the game doesn't actually have gigantic flaws. Your gameplay complaints are akin to watching someone play a Megaman game, then playing it yourself in the correct boss order and saying it's boring, short, and easy, and the bosses all have simple patterns.

But whatevs, I won't be playing it again for sure now, fanbase is nearly as fervent as Star Citizen after all...
You let FANBASES decide what single player games you will and won't play? That's....wow.

Plus you said you saw everything in the game, why would you play it again? Unless you haven't....
 

Redryhno

New member
Jul 25, 2011
3,077
0
0
Thanatos2k said:
Redryhno said:
Did you read ANY part of the rest of the post? Because you're doing the exact same thing again and again. The game has FLAWS. GIGANTIC FLAWS. That's all I've said. I haven't said it was bad, I haven't said it doesn't deserve praise, I said it isn't as perfect as people keep talking about. And no matter the criticism, it's because I didn't play it correctly.
I'm suggesting people who didn't play the game aren't in any position to legitimately talk about what are flaws in the game.

Plus the game doesn't actually have gigantic flaws. Your gameplay complaints are akin to watching someone play a Megaman game, then playing it yourself in the correct boss order and saying it's boring, short, and easy, and the bosses all have simple patterns.

But whatevs, I won't be playing it again for sure now, fanbase is nearly as fervent as Star Citizen after all...
You let FANBASES decide what single player games you will and won't play? That's....wow.

Plus you said you saw everything in the game, why would you play it again? Unless you haven't....
And yet again, we loop back around to the "YOU AREN'T PLAYING IT CORRECTLY ARGUMENT REEEE" argument.

And no, I don't let fanbases decide, but it has certainly made me not want to be in their company through playing the game again either. And are you really pulling the "YOU DIDN'T REALLY PLAY IT" crap again? Do you really only play through games as "great" as Undertale only once? And like you keep saying, I haven't played through Pacifist or one of the multitudes of Neutral runs you can do, differences in narrative and the save stuff might be alot of fun.
 

Thanatos2k

New member
Aug 12, 2013
820
0
0
Redryhno said:
Thanatos2k said:
Redryhno said:
Did you read ANY part of the rest of the post? Because you're doing the exact same thing again and again. The game has FLAWS. GIGANTIC FLAWS. That's all I've said. I haven't said it was bad, I haven't said it doesn't deserve praise, I said it isn't as perfect as people keep talking about. And no matter the criticism, it's because I didn't play it correctly.
I'm suggesting people who didn't play the game aren't in any position to legitimately talk about what are flaws in the game.

Plus the game doesn't actually have gigantic flaws. Your gameplay complaints are akin to watching someone play a Megaman game, then playing it yourself in the correct boss order and saying it's boring, short, and easy, and the bosses all have simple patterns.

But whatevs, I won't be playing it again for sure now, fanbase is nearly as fervent as Star Citizen after all...
You let FANBASES decide what single player games you will and won't play? That's....wow.

Plus you said you saw everything in the game, why would you play it again? Unless you haven't....
And yet again, we loop back around to the "YOU AREN'T PLAYING IT CORRECTLY ARGUMENT REEEE" argument.
Because it's true. You didn't play it correctly. You watched it be played. And ruined a wonderful game for yourself, such that you're now so bitter you have to lash out at the people who did enjoy it. Because you didn't get to enjoy it as it was meant to be played, now it's "overrated." You never experienced the intensity of a boss unleashing a new attack you haven't seen before and skillfully dodging it. You never made your own choices about who lived and who died and had the game play out with your decisions. You didn't even explore the game on your own.

And that's a pity.
 

Luminous_Umbra

New member
Sep 25, 2011
218
0
0
What I find downright hilarious is the people who it's quite clear that the game does not match up well with are calling it some variation of "flawed", "bad", etc.

No it's not a "hard game."

No, it's not brutally punishing all the time.

Undertale isn't a lot of things that other games are.

What is Undertale?

To me at least, it's a fantastically charming game that takes RPGs and video games in general in directions most don't go. It dares to try something different, to have a focus on characters, on the player's actions, on what those actions would mean to the world of Undertale. It makes choices "matter" in ways large and small, beyond "Mother Teresa and baby-eating" as Yahtzee once called it.

To me, Undertale is game of detail, where immense effort has been put to fill out the game world with countless details. Detail that adds to the characters, to the story, to the enjoyment of the player. Even something as small as a character commenting on a repeated action or an enemy reacting to a specific item makes the game more. Perhaps not for me, but for someone. It is very much a sum of parts.

To me, Undertale is not perfect. It has flaws. But everything positive and wonderful that it does have makes those flaws pale in comparison.

To me, Undertale is not a game for everyone. If you want a ridiculously hard game that constantly challenges you from start to finish, you're probably not going to enjoy Undertale. If you don't get attached to characters and/or are not one for story, you probably will not enjoy Undertale. If you want very quick enjoyment and don't want to give a game time, Undertale is not for you.

To me, Undertale is fantastic game, that excels at what it does. It might not be for everyone, but those that enjoy the kind of things Undertale has to offer will not be disappointed.
 

loa

New member
Jan 28, 2012
1,716
0
0
Redryhno said:
loa said:
All of these things are covered under two things, "THEME" and "SETTING".

In other RPGs, it isn't important why the monster wants to kill you, because they're not the focus of the story. In Trails in the Sky, you fight the Sky Bandits because you're looking for your dad and they're the best lead you can get, but they're paranoid as hell because you're a part of a lawbringer organization basically and they stole shit from you. Dragon Age you fight the Darkspawn because they are corrupted beings that have lost their minds and are controlled by an old dragon that they dug out of the ground that has also become corrupted. Shadowrun the corporations are trying to kill you because you're digging into their dirty past that may cause a .00001 drop in stock. Elder Scrolls is just a brutal world, you're a means to survival for some things, you're an obstacle to their created purpose to another, and still others you're just there and they're very angry individuals.

Undertale is not unique in the "enemies" having motivations, it is unique in that it FOCUSES solely on them as the main point of the game. And it does that very well.
Well yeah.
And I find it kind of dull that it isn't important in other rpgs!
Like, what the hell, you make me grind through throwaway encounters for 90% of gametime and then none of that really matters in whatever parallel dimension the story takes place in.
The setting basically has the same worth of a porn movies plot when it comes to combat.
It's just a limp excuse for why you fight more dudes.

Like I said, aerith takes 10 rockets, flame throwers and giant buzzsaws to the face and gets revived all the time during combat but fuck you, here's a cutscene in which she gets stabbed one time and she dead now because plot. The thing we made you do every 2 steps is of no consequence whatsoever, its rules are not even part of the "story" universe.
It's meaningless filler.

Also it's not about "motivations", it's about INTERACTION. CHARACTERIZATION.
None of which takes place when darkspawn # 15 hits you for 40 damage and your only means of interaction boil down to the exact same methods of dealing with spiders, bears, soldiers, dragons, whatever. Deal damage, kill, loot, repeat.
 

Hungryfreak

New member
May 24, 2008
19
0
0
The thing about Undertale is that, at least for me, it's completely shifted how I view combat in games overall.

Soon after beating Undertale for the fourth time, I borrowed a copy of A Link Between Worlds. Every time I cleared a screen of enemies, left it and returned soon after to find nobody made me feel a little sad.
 

KilloZapit

New member
Jan 28, 2011
39
0
0
Really my only problem with Undertale is that the ACT system is very contextual. I think it would have been a lot more fun if you are given a gradually expanding list of options that you could choose from in every encounter, like a skill system or something. I also kinda think it would be better if all encounters were on the map rather then random encounters, but I think that's less important.

Though even saying I have no problems with it, I don't feel bad admitting I watched on youtube rather then play it myself, and I am mostly fine with that. I mean the game has has juuust barely enough fun looking gameplay to it with the bullet hellish battle system that I wouldn't mind picking it up and playing it myself, except it's not available on Linux (I guess I could try wine, but eh). But I can't blame people if they feel satisfied watching videos of it. That's the problem with story heavy games. No matter how well written they are, if they don't have enough fun gameplay why not just watch them on youtube? And people can rant about "spoiling" the game for myself all they want, but I firmly believe that it doesn't make that much of a difference, at least for me.
 

FirstNameLastName

Premium Fraud
Nov 6, 2014
1,080
0
0
Well, I personally did play the game, and quite enjoyed it, but I actually kind of disagree with the idea that you need to experience the "player agency" of making the decisions yourself. Thing is, the decisions them-self, while nice, aren't exactly all that complicated. It's no Witcher 3 or Mass Effect in that department; you don't have the consider complex moral and political context to base your judgements off. It's pretty much, do you you want to kill every single monster bar none, or do you want to go through the game handing out free hugs? Anything more than a hair to either side of these extremes and you get the neutral ending.
If you paid even the slightest bit of attention to the fanbase, development, marketing, or even just the in game dialogue, you'll figure out immediately that you're supposed to go through the game without killing anyone. So you'll basically find yourself picking all the black and white nice options just to get the good ending, then picking all the evil options when you inevitably do the genocide run.

Another thing, I found the constant references to anime to be rather cringe-worthy by the end. I get that it fits into characterisation, but after a while it started to feel less like a valid character element and more like an excuse for all involved to reference stuff they like.

Now, I do like the game, so take that into consideration before getting mad at me for "hating" on it. I just think it's rather unhealthy and obnoxious to never criticise things you like.
 

Redryhno

New member
Jul 25, 2011
3,077
0
0
FirstNameLastName said:
Well, I personally did play the game, and quite enjoyed it, but I actually kind of disagree with the idea that you need to experience the "player agency" of making the decisions yourself. Thing is, the decisions them-self, while nice, aren't exactly all that complicated. It's no Witcher 3 or Mass Effect in that department; you don't have the consider complex moral and political context to base your judgements off. It's pretty much, do you you want to kill every single monster bar none, or do you want to go through the game handing out free hugs? Anything more than a hair to either side of these extremes and you get the neutral ending.
If you paid even the slightest bit of attention to the fanbase, development, marketing, or even just the in game dialogue, you'll figure out immediately that you're supposed to go through the game without killing anyone. So you'll basically find yourself picking all the black and white nice options just to get the good ending, then picking all the evil options when you inevitably do the genocide run.

Another thing, I found the constant references to anime to be rather cringe-worthy by the end. I get that it fits into characterisation, but after a while it started to feel less like a valid character element and more like an excuse for all involved to reference stuff they like.

Now, I do like the game, so take that into consideration before getting mad at me for "hating" on it. I just think it's rather unhealthy and obnoxious to never criticise things you like.
Honestly that's alot of my thoughts as well. I certainly don't think it's a bad game. It's got annoyances like the bullet hell and the damn screen loading times taking longer than alot of the fights that I really wish weren't a part of it because it was largely a hardware limitation making it like that back in the day, no excuse today, largely the same rason Bloodborne was hated on release. But when people are praising it for having an INCREDIBLY binary system they've complained about in other RPGs, you really have to wonder sometimes if people pay enough attention to their complaints to carry them to the next conversation with any amount of consistency.

And the quirkiness is neat, it jumps headfirst into it and rolls around in its own quirky filth, but some of the jokes sorta took a page out of Monty Python and didn't read that while the funny, not funny, funny again method can work, you have to stop before it becomes downright stupid to continue going back and forth eventually.
 

Saetha

New member
Jan 19, 2014
824
0
0
Redryhno said:
And yet again, we loop back around to the "YOU AREN'T PLAYING IT CORRECTLY ARGUMENT REEEE" argument.

And no, I don't let fanbases decide, but it has certainly made me not want to be in their company through playing the game again either. And are you really pulling the "YOU DIDN'T REALLY PLAY IT" crap again? Do you really only play through games as "great" as Undertale only once? And like you keep saying, I haven't played through Pacifist or one of the multitudes of Neutral runs you can do, differences in narrative and the save stuff might be alot of fun.
Just for the record - this isn't the best philosophy to have. I mean, hey, you watched the game, you don't think it'll interest you, that's cool, you don't have to love it. (And I'm not sure that playing the game yourself will really heighten the experience anyway, since the main draw is the story and the writing.) But letting a fanbase kill your enjoyment of something is never a good idea, and this coming from someone who has problems with it too. But if I didn't make efforts to look past a lousy fanbase and enjoy something for what it is - especially when it is a single-player game or experience - then I'd have gotten to experience things like The Witcher or Steven Universe. Unless enjoying a work means directly interacting with it's fans, you shouldn't let that bring you down.

And I'm not sure I'd base my view of the entire fanbase on one somewhat... evangelical poster on a single forum.

KilloZapit said:
Though even saying I have no problems with it, I don't feel bad admitting I watched on youtube rather then play it myself, and I am mostly fine with that. I mean the game has has juuust barely enough fun looking gameplay to it with the bullet hellish battle system that I wouldn't mind picking it up and playing it myself, except it's not available on Linux (I guess I could try wine, but eh). But I can't blame people if they feel satisfied watching videos of it. That's the problem with story heavy games. No matter how well written they are, if they don't have enough fun gameplay why not just watch them on youtube? And people can rant about "spoiling" the game for myself all they want, but I firmly believe that it doesn't make that much of a difference, at least for me.
I dunno, my take on watching let's plays of story-heavy games is this: if the story - not the let's player going through it, but the story itself - manages to draw me in just when I'm watching it, and doesn't have any serious missteps along the way, then I'll go out and buy the game even if I have no intention of playing it. It happened with Wolf Among Us, it happened with BioShock Infinite, and it actually happened with Undertale, too. (I eventually did my own playthrough just to have the experience, but I bought the game because my favorite LPer started playing it and I actually enjoyed the story more than his commentary on it.) Sure, I didn't experience the story precisely as intended, but I enjoyed it all the same, and whoever wrote it deserves my money for that.
 

Redryhno

New member
Jul 25, 2011
3,077
0
0
Saetha said:
Redryhno said:
And yet again, we loop back around to the "YOU AREN'T PLAYING IT CORRECTLY ARGUMENT REEEE" argument.

And no, I don't let fanbases decide, but it has certainly made me not want to be in their company through playing the game again either. And are you really pulling the "YOU DIDN'T REALLY PLAY IT" crap again? Do you really only play through games as "great" as Undertale only once? And like you keep saying, I haven't played through Pacifist or one of the multitudes of Neutral runs you can do, differences in narrative and the save stuff might be alot of fun.
Just for the record - this isn't the best philosophy to have. I mean, hey, you watched the game, you don't think it'll interest you, that's cool, you don't have to love it. (And I'm not sure that playing the game yourself will really heighten the experience anyway, since the main draw is the story and the writing.) But letting a fanbase kill your enjoyment of something is never a good idea, and this coming from someone who has problems with it too. But if I didn't make efforts to look past a lousy fanbase and enjoy something for what it is - especially when it is a single-player game or experience - then I'd have gotten to experience things like The Witcher or Steven Universe. Unless enjoying a work means directly interacting with it's fans, you shouldn't let that bring you down.

And I'm not sure I'd base my view of the entire fanbase on one somewhat... evangelical poster on a single forum.

KilloZapit said:
Though even saying I have no problems with it, I don't feel bad admitting I watched on youtube rather then play it myself, and I am mostly fine with that. I mean the game has has juuust barely enough fun looking gameplay to it with the bullet hellish battle system that I wouldn't mind picking it up and playing it myself, except it's not available on Linux (I guess I could try wine, but eh). But I can't blame people if they feel satisfied watching videos of it. That's the problem with story heavy games. No matter how well written they are, if they don't have enough fun gameplay why not just watch them on youtube? And people can rant about "spoiling" the game for myself all they want, but I firmly believe that it doesn't make that much of a difference, at least for me.
I dunno, my take on watching let's plays of story-heavy games is this: if the story - not the let's player going through it, but the story itself - manages to draw me in just when I'm watching it, and doesn't have any serious missteps along the way, then I'll go out and buy the game even if I have no intention of playing it. It happened with Wolf Among Us, it happened with BioShock Infinite, and it actually happened with Undertale, too. (I eventually did my own playthrough just to have the experience, but I bought the game because my favorite LPer started playing it and I actually enjoyed the story more than his commentary on it.) Sure, I didn't experience the story precisely as intended, but I enjoyed it all the same, and whoever wrote it deserves my money for that.
Probably, but I've already played through the Genocide and watched the Pacifist, sorta just stinks that not agreeing is grounds for constantly being told that you should've gone into it completely blind and you're playing it wrong if you have any prior knowledge., things which has led to alot of people complaining about some games being allowed onto Steam to begin with.

In any case, I've got Afterbirth that released today, I'm good for a few months in addition to my sorta large backlog of "better" RPGs. Having trouble deciding if Witcher3 or Afterbirth is my GOTY still honestly.
 

FirstNameLastName

Premium Fraud
Nov 6, 2014
1,080
0
0
Redryhno said:
FirstNameLastName said:
Well, I personally did play the game, and quite enjoyed it, but I actually kind of disagree with the idea that you need to experience the "player agency" of making the decisions yourself. Thing is, the decisions them-self, while nice, aren't exactly all that complicated. It's no Witcher 3 or Mass Effect in that department; you don't have the consider complex moral and political context to base your judgements off. It's pretty much, do you you want to kill every single monster bar none, or do you want to go through the game handing out free hugs? Anything more than a hair to either side of these extremes and you get the neutral ending.
If you paid even the slightest bit of attention to the fanbase, development, marketing, or even just the in game dialogue, you'll figure out immediately that you're supposed to go through the game without killing anyone. So you'll basically find yourself picking all the black and white nice options just to get the good ending, then picking all the evil options when you inevitably do the genocide run.

Another thing, I found the constant references to anime to be rather cringe-worthy by the end. I get that it fits into characterisation, but after a while it started to feel less like a valid character element and more like an excuse for all involved to reference stuff they like.

Now, I do like the game, so take that into consideration before getting mad at me for "hating" on it. I just think it's rather unhealthy and obnoxious to never criticise things you like.
Honestly that's alot of my thoughts as well. I certainly don't think it's a bad game. It's got annoyances like the bullet hell and the damn screen loading times taking longer than alot of the fights that I really wish weren't a part of it because it was largely a hardware limitation making it like that back in the day, no excuse today, largely the same rason Bloodborne was hated on release. But when people are praising it for having an INCREDIBLY binary system they've complained about in other RPGs, you really have to wonder sometimes if people pay enough attention to their complaints to carry them to the next conversation with any amount of consistency.

And the quirkiness is neat, it jumps headfirst into it and rolls around in its own quirky filth, but some of the jokes sorta took a page out of Monty Python and didn't read that while the funny, not funny, funny again method can work, you have to stop before it becomes downright stupid to continue going back and forth eventually.
I actually liked the bullet-hell aspect, which is strange, because I've never had any interest in actual bullet-hell games. Maybe it was the fact that it was an easily accessible bullet-hell lite that I enjoyed about it.

One aspect I don't really like about the fanbase is the way so many seem to think this is the new Spec-Ops, holding a mirror up to other RPGs where you kill lots of monsters. I'm not sure of exactly how much of this is intentional, and how much is just people's perceptions of the game, but there do seem to be a large number of people who believe that solving all conflicts without violence isn't just revolutionary, but is somehow a profound statement about other in game enemies and the way we deal with them.
Here's the thing, as nice as the in game world is, and as interesting as the story is, the scenarios in which you are able to simply complement or pet your way out of every conflict are completely contrived and in no way reflect reality. There are already plenty of games that involve stealthing your way out of conflict, and plenty that depict unnecessary violence as despicable, but all these comedic solutions really can't work outside of the setting or tone. It's all well and good to show absolute mercy towards a world of cute, anthropomorphic animals that seem to have near human levels of intelligence, but I don't see why anyone should expect others to show mercy towards more typical RPG enemies.
Real world conflicts are far too complicated for any simplistic pacifist morality, and as horrible as it might sound, sometimes violence is necessary. Yes, despite what you've been told all your life, violence does indeed solve problems in certain cases. Sorry to invoke Godwin's law here, but I would have loved to see an alternate history in which the allied soldiers locked hands, sang songs, and attempted to complement their way to victory against the Nazi's. I'm sure the Nazi's, with their guns, tanks and planes, wouldn't stand a chance against all those kind words.

By all means, create more games with more interesting gameplay elements than repetitive combat, and create more stories that don't just paint any and all opposition as monsters deserving of death, but if you expect me to spam mercy at every skeleton, zombie and demon that crosses my path, then guess again. Most skeletons don't serve you spaghetti and witty puns.

Now, I'm not saying that the game is bad for such morals; it was a pretty emotional story. But I am rather sick of the fans who seem to think this game is some great and profound thesis on morality, conflict and violence.
 

Saetha

New member
Jan 19, 2014
824
0
0
FirstNameLastName said:
Now, I'm not saying that the game is bad for such morals; it was a pretty emotional story. But I am rather sick of the fans who seem to think this game is some great and profound thesis on morality, conflict and violence.
Hmm. I wouldn't call it some profound thesis on anything, and it's certainly not the first game to allow for non-violence, or revolutionary for doing so - but it's definitely stuck with after finishing the game and moving onto another. I remember I booted up a different game recently, and when I got mobbed by the usual rush of enemies, my first though was "Wait a second - why do we have to fight? I mean, I get why, it's a video game, you're programmed to. But why did they do that? What's your motivation? Could we work this out differently?" I highly doubt Toby Fox set out to make some auteur deconstruction of video games, and I doubt he'd describe Undertale like that if you asked - it is, first and foremost, a quirky RPG with some nice humor and interesting characters. But I definitely think there's an attempt to examine and take apart common video game conventions. Most of the time it's used to tell a joke, and sometimes it's used to show how powerful and even horrifying such abilities are. (The Sans fight and Flowey's dialogue at the end of a pacifist run will definitely give me pause whenever I save or restart a game ever again.) While they're not the game's heart and focus, they've given me (And probably a lot of others) something to think about in regard to what we just commonly accept in video games, and what effect that might have on the in-game world.

And... I mean, it's hard to look at a genocide run and consider it anything but a ruthless take-down of how we play video games. You could argue if it's successful or not, but there was definitely an attempt there.