Universities -- Misconceptions

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Sonic Doctor

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Jan 9, 2010
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syrus27 said:
dantoddd said:
most universities are non-profit organizations.

I've been to three universities Amherst, Cornell & UC Berkeley none of those felt like a business to me. as an undergrad i was very well taken care of I got generous financial aid, got to study abroad & profs were nice to talk to an always helped. Grad school was a bit more job like but that is something you should expect when you to grad school.
What country are we talking about here?
Considering that UC Berkeley is in California, the country is the US.

Though dantoddd doesn't understand the finer points of universities, they can have all those things he said, but still be ruthless businesses.

As I have said in other posts, I as well have had kind professors that were nice and helped me, but they all admitted that universities are businesses.
 

Shivarage

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syrus27 said:
Umm no I don't think so, they've always been business, what the weren't 100% truthful in their advertisements? No businesses are.

As for the whole mindless drones thing, I went to university, I worked hard, I got good results and now I'm in a cushy job for Government Management. No one ever pretended that my degree was going to be handed to me on a silver platter. University is great if you put the effort in, this sounds like it could be more a problem with your attitude to work than with the uni itself.
University is great you say? explain "unpaid internships" aka slavery if university is that valuable... from what I can see, university is just time wasting and then they ask you to do EVEN MORE before even considering giving you minimum wage, OH they didn't give a job - shoulda worked harder for no money then! or even paid them for the privilege!
 

Shivarage

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Lilani said:
Shivarage said:
You don't get a high score for your degree by doing what's not in the curriculum...
Protop: When it comes to having a degree, most employers care more about your performance and the fact that you have the degree more than your GPA. A high GPA is nice, but ultimately it's your actual resume and portfolio that get you places. Having a "high score for your degree" just shows you're really good at doing what you are told to do, and completing the tasks others tell you to complete.

Now, having a broad resume that shows a history of doing things beyond the reach beyond what is merely required to attain your degree, THAT tells employers a lot about your character. Going what beyond what is simply required of you shows a desire to progress and evolve, plus it means you have a high level of self-motivation. Those are traits that cannot be expressed just by a good GPA. Doing what you're told isn't inherently a bad thing, however if that's all you have to show for yourself, that is a problem.
That's not what they TELL you when you get there, they tell you to get a high mark for your degree and nothing more and you are guaranteed a job which are lies. they punish having broad activites by not including them in the curriculum, leading to a low value degree.

[sarcasm]Oh yes, I remember all the times the business owners did what they were told... like paying their taxes and not exporting jobs to capitalize their profits not to mention hiring more people with their tax rate deductions... yes, doing what your told definately pays off [/scarcasm]
 

Shivarage

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AngloDoom said:
Shivarage said:
Snip
I don't see your justification or background research, we will be here forever if we have to dig out quotes from random people no more intelligent than us just cause you don't trust anyone personally...

Clearly the curriculum is there to measure students against or else how can they tell who is better than who?

As for education in general, they don't tell you that who you know is more important that what... I've seen time and time again the biggest idiots in high paid positions


Can you really tell me that this man is highly intelligent or even has an education? he has two god dam houses paid for by us and steals hundreds of thousands from us and can't understand why that isn't acceptable...

I certainly wouldn't trust him with my droppings
 

spartan231490

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Jan 14, 2010
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unabomberman said:
spartan231490 said:
Stall said:
I need to rant.

Do you want to know what universities are? BUSINESSES. They aren't these wonderful places of learning where free ideas propagate and bloom, or these places of immense intellectual growth where blah blah blah. This kind of garbage belongs in the movies... it is not reality. Reality would tell you that a universities are enterprises: they operate with the sole purpose of earning profits. It just so happens that their manner of earning these profits is to make you pay for your education. You give them money... they give you a piece of paper that increases your ability to get a job. Professors are their employees-- they aren't a glorious beacon of knowledge and freedom of thought, but just people doing their jobs. You are the university's client, which is referred to as a student in the industry of higher education. Stop giving universities special treatment: treat them like you would any other corporation or place of business... because THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE.

Can we please just drop this overly romanticized crap about higher education? I'm sick of these people saying thinking universities somehow special or are these magical supercool places. They're business... nothing more... nothing less. They aren't anything like the movies told you they were. You need a reality check if you think so otherwise.

Oh, this applies to American universities. If you aren't American and don't go to an American university, then please, don't tell me how "I'm wrong". I'm speaking only on what I know (which is American universities), and could care less how this generalizes to other cultures. I don't mean to sound like a jerk with this statement, but I want to avoid the inevitable "Oh, well I go to a university in X country, and this isn't true here!".
The movie "accepted" was a much funnier way of saying exactly this. Everyone should watch it.
unabomberman said:
GrizzlerBorno said:
Well I'm still a freshman.... so I'm not quite jaded enough with College Bureaucracy to agree. Maybe later?
He is butthurt either b/c he doesn't understand the difference between the actual universities and the for-profit ones, failed out, or is just royally pissed. Either way, if he had an inkling of an idea he'd understand that he's taking a shred of truth and blowing it out of proportion and into the realm of vague generalities.

My take? He is only partially correct and depending on where you are things will vary. Hell, they even vary within the universities themselves.
Universities are run for profit, plain and simple. It's an obvious truth. That doesn't make them bad. There is no reason for them not to be. Yes, it leads to some bad decisions on the part of the universities, but they still accomplish their goals, at least to some extent. Really, he's right, american universities are not places of free thought and expression. think about the firefly poster thing that has been discussed on this very site.
No. You are taking an incident and extending it into the realm of uninformed generalization.

Yes, the American model of higher education is based on profit, that much is well known, but within the model you can find all sorts of different incarnations of what a University is supposed to be and not just the assembly line equivalent of education.

To say universities are run for profit is a misconception given how they are at the cutting edge of technological and philosophical development, failed economic model nothwithstanding. That's where scientific and technological breakthroughs are carried out in the U.S., along with certain strands of the private sector, and the people there are thrilled to bothe learn and develop those things. To say otherwise is to plain be stubborn and close minded.
Cutting edge of technology? No they aren't. Clarkson University (where I went) is a pretty good, expensive, well funded engineering school, even their best equipment is a minimum of 10-15 years old. They use industrial cast-offs that are donated by alumni. Most, if not all, colleges are exactly the same.

And you said it yourself, Universities are run for profit, it's a well known fact. I wasn't "taking an incident and extending it into the realm of uninformed generalization." I was taking the sum of my experiences, as well as the experiences with all of my friends and family(surprisingly, there was no conflicting evidence) and coming to a conclusion. The firefly thing was just one example.

If you want others, how about the fact that following your advisers advice in college is likely to result in you needing a whole extra year to graduate. It happened to my brother, my sister, and two separate friends of mine at 4 different american Universities. Everyone else I know in college didn't listen to their adviser and just looked at what they needed and figured out how to get there on their own.

How about the fact that even state schools charge you over $5,000 dollars for just 4, maybe 4 and a half months of food. And the same charge for a your dorm, even the 16 by 16 box with 3 people in it.

How about the fact that many colleges have a fee you need to pay to drop a class.

colleges are run for profit, and it shows. Perhaps you are the one drawing an over-large conclusion from a too-small sample pool.
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
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Shivarage said:
That's not what they TELL you when you get there, they tell you to get a high mark for your degree and nothing more and you are guaranteed a job which are lies. they punish having broad activites by not including them in the curriculum, leading to a low value degree.

[sarcasm]Oh yes, I remember all the times the business owners did what they were told... like paying their taxes and not exporting jobs to capitalize their profits not to mention hiring more people with their tax rate deductions... yes, doing what your told definately pays off [/scarcasm]
I'm sorry, but who exactly is punishing you for having broad activities? It couldn't be the employers because they love broad resumes, and it couldn't be the university because student organizations need participation for you to survive. Or do you mean that if you participate in lots of activities, it could lower your scores? Because that isn't the fault of employers OR the university. That's your own fault for not managing your time properly, and for not knowing when you've bitten off more than you can chew.

And if you think there was ever a time when businesses "did what they were told," I think you need to do some reading up on the US industrial revolution and the work conditions and monopolies of the late 19th century/early 20th century. Historians agree the industrial revolution was one of the most corrupt eras in American history, both politically and bureaucratically. It wasn't until strict regulation came into play after WWI and the Great Depression that they stopped hiring children and making them work in front of dangerous machinery that could mangle them in an instant, gave reasonable work hours with regular breaks, stopped jacking up railroad prices in rural areas where they had the monopolies, and became required to provide basic safety equipment such as functioning fire escapes. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire]

Plus the tax situation back then? It was ridiculous. See, it was property tax rather than income tax. The reason they had property taxes was because owning lots of property usually meant you had lots of money--because you were on a farm. But then the factories came. The factories could sit on a tiny plot of land and generate more in revenue than even the largest farms could ever dream of. So while the millionaire business owners were sitting on piles of money in the northeast, impoverished farmers in the south were paying the bulk of the taxes that went to pay for the infrastructure that would in turn only benefit the urban businesses. They got that changed too, but it was still in the midst of the second worst depression in American history (I'm sure you know which one was the worst).

So quit victimizing yourself. Businesses have always been out to screw people over, that doesn't mean you have to go ahead and bend over for them. Again, make YOUR education work for YOU. And if you REALLY hate it that much, why don't you just quit? Do the benefits of having the degree outweigh the little grievances you've put for there? Then suck it up. Quit whining about it and work to make your situation better. But if that's just too much work then you have no room to be complaining.

Oh, and what is this?

yes, doing what your told definately pays off
Good Lord. Did you not read what I wrote? Or is it that you just didn't comprehend my point? My point was to NOT only do exactly what you are told to do, when it comes to making decisions about your future and your education. That's just a ridiculous way to live, mindlessly following whatever path somebody else tells you to take. Yes there are requirements you must fill, but you should never just stop there.

Now, when I said getting good scores shows employers you can do what you are told, I was referring to those required tasks set before you. Because let's face it--most workplaces usually don't offer as many opportunities to be avant-garde as school. You are asked to perform certain tasks by your bosses, and you are expected to complete them. That's sort of the point of working, you know? And having good scores shows that you are able to complete those tasks with a level of efficiency and quality.

But all in all, that's a very common trait. Doing what you are told isn't exactly a rare gift. Which is why I said at the end to not JUST do that. Doing more than the minimum is a much rarer trait, and speaks worlds of your character and dedication. Ultimately, employers don't want someone who will do the job set before them. They want someone who will not only do the job, but not hesitate to do whatever more is required to do the job as best as possible.

So, summary: Following the minimum requirements for your degree is not the way to go. Broaden your horizons--do other things. Go beyond what is required and find other useful things you can do or learn on the side. Doing what you are told is no longer good enough. The reason a degree is no longer a guarantee for a job is because they are so common now. Post-graduate jobs have officially become competitive. You can't just earn your degree then sit on your ass. You've got to work yourself up and prove yourself to be worthy of your degree and your job.
 

fulano

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spartan231490 said:
unabomberman said:
spartan231490 said:
Stall said:
I need to rant.

Do you want to know what universities are? BUSINESSES. They aren't these wonderful places of learning where free ideas propagate and bloom, or these places of immense intellectual growth where blah blah blah. This kind of garbage belongs in the movies... it is not reality. Reality would tell you that a universities are enterprises: they operate with the sole purpose of earning profits. It just so happens that their manner of earning these profits is to make you pay for your education. You give them money... they give you a piece of paper that increases your ability to get a job. Professors are their employees-- they aren't a glorious beacon of knowledge and freedom of thought, but just people doing their jobs. You are the university's client, which is referred to as a student in the industry of higher education. Stop giving universities special treatment: treat them like you would any other corporation or place of business... because THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE.

Can we please just drop this overly romanticized crap about higher education? I'm sick of these people saying thinking universities somehow special or are these magical supercool places. They're business... nothing more... nothing less. They aren't anything like the movies told you they were. You need a reality check if you think so otherwise.

Oh, this applies to American universities. If you aren't American and don't go to an American university, then please, don't tell me how "I'm wrong". I'm speaking only on what I know (which is American universities), and could care less how this generalizes to other cultures. I don't mean to sound like a jerk with this statement, but I want to avoid the inevitable "Oh, well I go to a university in X country, and this isn't true here!".
The movie "accepted" was a much funnier way of saying exactly this. Everyone should watch it.
unabomberman said:
GrizzlerBorno said:
Well I'm still a freshman.... so I'm not quite jaded enough with College Bureaucracy to agree. Maybe later?
He is butthurt either b/c he doesn't understand the difference between the actual universities and the for-profit ones, failed out, or is just royally pissed. Either way, if he had an inkling of an idea he'd understand that he's taking a shred of truth and blowing it out of proportion and into the realm of vague generalities.

My take? He is only partially correct and depending on where you are things will vary. Hell, they even vary within the universities themselves.
Universities are run for profit, plain and simple. It's an obvious truth. That doesn't make them bad. There is no reason for them not to be. Yes, it leads to some bad decisions on the part of the universities, but they still accomplish their goals, at least to some extent. Really, he's right, american universities are not places of free thought and expression. think about the firefly poster thing that has been discussed on this very site.
No. You are taking an incident and extending it into the realm of uninformed generalization.

Yes, the American model of higher education is based on profit, that much is well known, but within the model you can find all sorts of different incarnations of what a University is supposed to be and not just the assembly line equivalent of education.

To say universities are run for profit is a misconception given how they are at the cutting edge of technological and philosophical development, failed economic model nothwithstanding. That's where scientific and technological breakthroughs are carried out in the U.S., along with certain strands of the private sector, and the people there are thrilled to bothe learn and develop those things. To say otherwise is to plain be stubborn and close minded.
Cutting edge of technology? No they aren't. Clarkson University (where I went) is a pretty good, expensive, well funded engineering school, even their best equipment is a minimum of 10-15 years old. They use industrial cast-offs that are donated by alumni. Most, if not all, colleges are exactly the same.

And you said it yourself, Universities are run for profit, it's a well known fact. I wasn't "taking an incident and extending it into the realm of uninformed generalization." I was taking the sum of my experiences, as well as the experiences with all of my friends and family(surprisingly, there was no conflicting evidence) and coming to a conclusion. The firefly thing was just one example.

If you want others, how about the fact that following your advisers advice in college is likely to result in you needing a whole extra year to graduate. It happened to my brother, my sister, and two separate friends of mine at 4 different american Universities. Everyone else I know in college didn't listen to their adviser and just looked at what they needed and figured out how to get there on their own.

How about the fact that even state schools charge you over $5,000 dollars for just 4, maybe 4 and a half months of food. And the same charge for a your dorm, even the 16 by 16 box with 3 people in it.

How about the fact that many colleges have a fee you need to pay to drop a class.

colleges are run for profit, and it shows. Perhaps you are the one drawing an over-large conclusion from a too-small sample pool.
First) Friends and family don't even qualify as a sample pool; and second) You just did it again: when speaking about Clarkson University "They use industrial cast-offs that are donated by alumni. Most, if not all, colleges are exactly the same." That last sentence is so wrong that I don't even know where to begin.

What this tells me is that you're already far off into the realm of motivated reasoning (for understandable and yet rather incomplete reasons) for me to be of any use to you.

We're done. Bye.
 

Shadu

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Nov 10, 2010
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I'm a senior in an American college. Just saying that to get things out of the way.

Now, some of what you said, I agree with. I understand that the college is a sort of business that wants their money. There is no denying that. However, at my particular school, I have never seen any place work as hard to find as many scholarships and grants for all of their students as this one.

There are professors who seem to just being doing the 8-5 thing, but most of the ones I have are actually very passionate about what they do and about their students. They would do almost anything to help the students if the students would only ask.

I'm not saying that the American college structure is perfect, but not all colleges are completely broken and corrupt either.
 

Shivarage

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Lilani said:
I think you proved my point, university is no longer valuable because as you said, the course is pointless if you don't have all the time in the world to go and do all the wonderful unrelated things!
 

trooper6

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The University of Phoenix is a for-profit college...and there is a world of difference between that place and the way it treats its students and actual colleges and universities. Heck, teachers at the University of Phoenix aren't allowed to design their own courses. They get the course notes and powerpoints for corporate headquarters and each class is supposed to be taught the same way all across the country. There is a big difference between that and what happens in an actual college/university where professors profess.

If you truly think Universities are run like businesses, you don't understand universities or businesses. Those Historically Black Colleges and Universities that were founded right after the Civil War to educate former slaves who had no money and where funded by donations? Yeah, not huge profit making businesses. Still aren't.

Most Universities aren't funded by tuition from students, but from their endowments, donations, and taxpayer subsidies. GE doesn't function through donations.

As for the "romantic idea" of higher ed? I don't see much "romanticization" going on in these boards or in society in general. What I mostly hear is that University is pointless, how terrible and unfair it is that people are forced to take classes outside of their major, that Universities suck because they don't guarantee a job, or that the Humanities are stupid...etc.
 

Shivarage

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Lilani said:
I'm sorry, but who exactly is punishing you for having broad activities? It couldn't be the employers because they love broad resumes, and it couldn't be the university because student organizations need participation for you to survive. Or do you mean that if you participate in lots of activities, it could lower your scores? Because that isn't the fault of employers OR the university. That's your own fault for not managing your time properly, and for not knowing when you've bitten off more than you can chew.

And if you think there was ever a time when businesses "did what they were told," I think you need to do some reading up on the US industrial revolution and the work conditions and monopolies of the late 19th century/early 20th century. Historians agree the industrial revolution was one of the most corrupt eras in American history, both politically and bureaucratically. It wasn't until strict regulation came into play after WWI and the Great Depression that they stopped hiring children and making them work in front of dangerous machinery that could mangle them in an instant, gave reasonable work hours with regular breaks, stopped jacking up railroad prices in rural areas where they had the monopolies, and became required to provide basic safety equipment such as functioning fire escapes. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire]

Plus the tax situation back then? It was ridiculous. See, it was property tax rather than income tax. The reason they had property taxes was because owning lots of property usually meant you had lots of money--because you were on a farm. But then the factories came. The factories could sit on a tiny plot of land and generate more in revenue than even the largest farms could ever dream of. So while the millionaire business owners were sitting on piles of money in the northeast, impoverished farmers in the south were paying the bulk of the taxes that went to pay for the infrastructure that would in turn only benefit the urban businesses. They got that changed too, but it was still in the midst of the second worst depression in American history (I'm sure you know which one was the worst).

So quit victimizing yourself. Businesses have always been out to screw people over, that doesn't mean you have to go ahead and bend over for them. Again, make YOUR education work for YOU. And if you REALLY hate it that much, why don't you just quit? Do the benefits of having the degree outweigh the little grievances you've put for there? Then suck it up. Quit whining about it and work to make your situation better. But if that's just too much work then you have no room to be complaining.

Oh, and what is this?

Good Lord. Did you not read what I wrote? Or is it that you just didn't comprehend my point? My point was to NOT only do exactly what you are told to do, when it comes to making decisions about your future and your education. That's just a ridiculous way to live, mindlessly following whatever path somebody else tells you to take. Yes there are requirements you must fill, but you should never just stop there.

Now, when I said getting good scores shows employers you can do what you are told, I was referring to those required tasks set before you. Because let's face it--most workplaces usually don't offer as many opportunities to be avant-garde as school. You are asked to perform certain tasks by your bosses, and you are expected to complete them. That's sort of the point of working, you know? And having good scores shows that you are able to complete those tasks with a level of efficiency and quality.

But all in all, that's a very common trait. Doing what you are told isn't exactly a rare gift. Which is why I said at the end to not JUST do that. Doing more than the minimum is a much rarer trait, and speaks worlds of your character and dedication. Ultimately, employers don't want someone who will do the job set before them. They want someone who will not only do the job, but not hesitate to do whatever more is required to do the job as best as possible.

So, summary: Following the minimum requirements for your degree is not the way to go. Broaden your horizons--do other things. Go beyond what is required and find other useful things you can do or learn on the side. Doing what you are told is no longer good enough. The reason a degree is no longer a guarantee for a job is because they are so common now. Post-graduate jobs have officially become competitive. You can't just earn your degree then sit on your ass. You've got to work yourself up and prove yourself to be worthy of your degree and your job.
syrus27 said:
Shivarage said:
syrus27 said:
snip

Ok then, don't go.Your clearly too lazy to put the effort in and too stupid to succeed. Get a nice challenging job in McDonalds or KFC and enjoy your life, I honestly couldn't care.

As I said in the above quote, it wasn't just a time-sink until I got a minimum wage job, I'm working far above the minimum wage, I'm sick of some peoples attitudes where they just want to cruise through life and get angry when people who put the effort in constantly outstrip them.
So we have two opposite viewpoints, one says university is everything while the other says it's nothing.

I give up, no millionairre ever got rich as a result of "education" nor do genuinely intelligent people stay poor through any fault of their own, whether it is a lack of contacts or lack of opportunity or just because they are poor they cannot afford to (with rich people being elitists, I wouldn't count on them wishing to get involved with the commoners)

I bet neither of you can explain how valuable university actually is when "unpaid internship" completely undermines the whole meritocratic idea seeing as a lot of highly paid jobs are unaccessible to those who cannot afford to work for NOTHING.
 

Shivarage

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megaman24681012 said:
I'm going to university next year.

*reads comments*

I'm scared now. D:
D: hey, don't be scared...

just be wary that nothing is guaranteed, make lots of contacts (those are the most important) and even if you decide to withdraw it is not the end of the world - after all, none of the business owners have qualifications
 

trooper6

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megaman24681012 said:
I'm going to university next year.

*reads comments*

I'm scared now. D:
Here is my advice to you.

The point of going to University is to get an education. It is to learn. It is to expand your mind, your horizons.

People who think the point of going to University is to get a job are looking at it the wrong way. If all you want is to get a job, you can go to a Vocational school and become a Nursing Assistant or a Mechanic.

If you are going to go, unless you want to go to grad school in a specific field, it doesn't matter what you major in. Even then you can sometimes get around that. When I was getting my PhD in Musicology, I had fellow grad students who had majored in Computer Science, Economics, and Women's Studies sitting alongside of me. Major in what inspires you, major in what you love. Take a wide variety of classes. Challenge yourself. Soak up all the knowledge you can get...that also includes talking to your peers at 2 in the morning about the meaning of life, being involved in sports or a music ensemble or student government or student publications. Be part of your campus community.

Many of the things that you'll get out of college are hard to quantify, but they are the things that will help you be successful long term. College is not a collection of trivia, it is a process.
 

Owyn_Merrilin

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IamLEAM1983 said:
Stall said:
Partial snip!

Oh, this applies to American universities. If you aren't American and don't go to an American university, then please, don't tell me how "I'm wrong". I'm speaking only on what I know (which is American universities), and could care less how this generalizes to other cultures. I don't mean to sound like a jerk with this statement, but I want to avoid the inevitable "Oh, well I go to a university in X country, and this isn't true here!".
Granted, universities are businesses, and businesses can be horribly mismanaged. Case in point, the Université du Québec à Montréal (UQAM), which is where I happen to go. They needed a new student parking space and tried to build a multi-tier parking garage. Cost estimates were wildly undershot, so much so that the dean had to resign when faced with his financial incompetence.

Still, that doesn't change the fact that universities are bipartite entities. You deal with the business end of things when you register, obtain your student card, get your schedule for the semester, etc. You deal with the academic side when you're handing in reports, spending days in the library for a bibliography project, or otherwise wooing teachers so one of them agrees to support your thesis.

You sound like you've got a chip on your shoulder, OP. Has something happened in your personal relationship with an institution of higher learning that caused that overall sense of disillusion? I get it that you might be sick of the "Dead Poets Society"-ish idolization of university as a concept, but you have to admit those of us who do choose to enroll in one aren't terribly concerned with the business end of things.

In Canada, a single semester costs around 700$ for the Master's degree. I know that's a far cry from what Americans pay, but for someone who only makes about ten bucks an hour, that's an absolute fortune. That shit be expensive, man; and I can only comfort myself in thinking that sixteen other people got chosen and were allowed to pay that motherload because we, well, fucking love books and fucking love nerding all over some author or another, to put it bluntly.

In other words, my passion and my desire to see this through will always defeat any and all peals of nihilistic realism I might experience at the sight of the bill I have to heft just to attend two classes of three hours each. I'm not doing this because I'm expecting to get a job at the end of it all; I'm doing it because I love it.
Wait a minute: A Master's degree costs $700 a semester, /and/ an entry level job pays out $10 an hour? I'm going to school in the wrong country. Around here, minimum wage is under $8 an hour, and tuition is measured in thousands of dollars even at the undergrad level, and even in public schools; a master's degree costs a fortune around here. In the US, even those of us who have scholarships coming out of our ears usually wind up in debt.
 

Pinkamena

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Jun 27, 2011
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Eh, I don't know. In norway, going to the universities is practically free (tiny little fee every semester. Negligible).
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
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Shivarage said:
So we have two opposite viewpoints, one says university is everything while the other says it's nothing.

I give up, no millionairre ever got rich as a result of "education" nor do genuinely intelligent people stay poor through any fault of their own, whether it is a lack of contacts or lack of opportunity or just because they are poor they cannot afford to (with rich people being elitists, I wouldn't count on them wishing to get involved with the commoners)

I bet neither of you can explain how valuable university actually is when "unpaid internship" completely undermines the whole meritocratic idea seeing as a lot of highly paid jobs are unaccessible to those who cannot afford to work for NOTHING.
Do you even go to college? You seem to have a very rudimentary concept of what it's for.

I never said college was EVERYTHING. Of course it isn't for EVERY single path in life. If that were the case, we'd be a country of businesspeople and scientists, with no laborers. But my major is computer animation. I NEED an education in order to do that. I need to learn the programs and the basics of filmmaking and character animation. If I had the money I'd go to an art school, but I can only afford state college.

If you want to go to college, go to college. If you don't want to, then don't. You and your circumstances are not the only ones that exist in the world. Considering the way public education is slowly falling to pieces, I'm thankful we have a secondary education system at all.

You seem to have a personal vendetta with college. Well fine, whatever. Don't go. I'm sure you'll get a job somewhere at some point. But don't ask for its disestablishment just because it's not your thing. I don't like mayonnaise, but I don't send letters for Kraft asking them to stop producing the foul stuff. Universities are a great benefit to society today. Completely ignoring the educational aspect, a good portion of medical and scientific breakthroughs come from universities and their sponsored affiliates. Sure, the system isn't perfect, but what is these days? It's for some, not everyone, and it's gotten harder recently because you actually have to KEEP TRYING before and after you get your degree. Boo hoo.

Shivarage said:
Lilani said:
I think you proved my point, university is no longer valuable because as you said, the course is pointless if you don't have all the time in the world to go and do all the wonderful unrelated things!
Hey, I never said unrelated things. Hell, I never said it required all the time in the world. Remember what I said earlier? I'm learning one computer animation program in classes, however on the side I'm learning others that will also be beneficial to me in the future. They don't teach those other programs, but I know if I want to get anywhere I'm going to have to know them all. I'm not in college to become a millionaire. I'm in college to become an animator, and only college offers the education I need to learn the skills of the trade.

So, let's say you're a business or management major. What could be beneficial to that? Exercises in leadership. Join a student organization, maybe one that orchestrates campus events. Do research on things you merely touched on in class and do some further reading. Take a foreign language class if it isn't required--or if it is, take up through the highest level of that language to become fluent. Make sure your electives are things that will help you in whatever career you're after (for example, if you are a business major take history classes that focus on the industrial revolution and the 20th century).

There are plenty of ways you can make your education work for you. Sure, it WILL take extra time to do some of those things, but even doing just one would be beneficial in the end. You just have to be smart and think about the classes you take, and think about where you focus your efforts.

I really don't know how else to explain it. I think the reason I've hung onto this for so long is because you seem to misinterpret everything I say. I've made it about as crystal clear as I can. Hell, here's a bulleted list just for giggles:

- College = Not for everybody
- Degree =/= automatic job
- Degrees are more common, so employers have to get more picky about who they hire
- More pickiness = more effort required to make yourself stand out
- Being active in college = looks good on resume. Makes you stand out.
- Unpaid internship = Gaining experience and contacts (which you yourself said are the most important) so you can get yourself INTO a paid position at some point

You seem to think that just because college, unpaid internships, and the like aren't easy that means they're inherently bad. If that's how you feel about everything in life, then I'm afraid you are sadly mistaken.
 

Shivarage

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trooper6 said:
Here is my advice to you.

The point of going to University is to get an education. It is to learn. It is to expand your mind, your horizons.

People who think the point of going to University is to get a job are looking at it the wrong way. If all you want is to get a job, you can go to a Vocational school and become a Nursing Assistant or a Mechanic.

If you are going to go, unless you want to go to grad school in a specific field, it doesn't matter what you major in. Even then you can sometimes get around that. When I was getting my PhD in Musicology, I had fellow grad students who had majored in Computer Science, Economics, and Women's Studies sitting alongside of me. Major in what inspires you, major in what you love. Take a wide variety of classes. Challenge yourself. Soak up all the knowledge you can get...that also includes talking to your peers at 2 in the morning about the meaning of life, being involved in sports or a music ensemble or student government or student publications. Be part of your campus community.

Many of the things that you'll get out of college are hard to quantify, but they are the things that will help you be successful long term. College is not a collection of trivia, it is a process.
Tell that to the employers who ask for a degree in anything at all just for the sake of asking for a degree or they won't even consider you for a job... you will be laughed at
 

Shivarage

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Lilani said:
How can you say unpaid internships are good? they completely outcast the poor who cannot afford it... obviously you weren't affected by this and I'm wasting my time talking to an elitist, rich fool who benefits from keeping universities useless and jobs out of reach of the poor.

Good day to you! >_>