Universities -- Misconceptions

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Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
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Shivarage said:
Lilani said:
How can you say unpaid internships are good? they completely outcast the poor who cannot afford it... obviously you weren't affected by this and I'm wasting my time talking to an elitist, rich fool who benefits from keeping universities useless and jobs out of reach of the poor.

Good day to you! >_>
I don't know what sorts of unpaid internships you're talking about, but most unpaid internships I'm aware of are essentially part-time positions. They leave you plenty of time to take other classes and hold a job at the same time. It's not like they're asking you to work 60 hours a week for nothing.

The sorts of unpaid internships I know about are essentially jobshadowing positions. You go in, observe, help out as needed, and gain a more hands-on knowledge about the position. In other words, you already have some training, and you gain experience in the field. But because you're learning more than working, you aren't doing quite enough to be enough of an asset to be given money. Then most of the time, you will have the opportunity to seek a paid position after a certain amount of time. Also, it's not like unpaid internships are the ONLY way to gain experience in any given industry. It's just one of many paths and possibilities.

And you seem to be forgetting there are plenty of paid internships out there. Hell, I worked at Disney World under a paid internship just a couple of years ago. And as far as I know, none of the internships Disney offers are unpaid. Just because unpaid internships EXIST it doesn't mean paid ones don't, as well.

So I say if there are people willing to take unpaid positions that are offered, then by god just let them. Also, in case you haven't noticed, college already favors those who aren't destitute in the first place. So if it's unfairness of opportunity you've got a problem with, how about you go and lobby for free primary AND secondary education for all rather than going after jobshadowing?

But hey, whatever. If the only thing in that entire post you had a problem with was unpaid internships, I can live with that.
 

trooper6

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Shivarage said:
Tell that to the employers who ask for a degree in anything at all just for the sake of asking for a degree or they won't even consider you for a job... you will be laughed at
What you are saying is not contradicting what I said at all.

I'm saying major in what you care about because with few exceptions, your major doesn't matter, what matters is the larger educational experience. That is why there are all those employers who ask for a degree in anything. They aren't asking because all they care about is a piece of paper because they are random and arbitrary, they are asking because they want someone who has gotten the education you get when you get a BA (writing skills, critical thinking and analytical skills, communication skills, etc).
 

Shivarage

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trooper6 said:
I have yet to meet anyone who has learned any of those things from education... and obviously employers don't care about "the larger educational experience" because they are well aware that is not real life experience or they would not make people do "unpaid internships"
 

Owyn_Merrilin

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ravensheart18 said:
Owyn_Merrilin said:
IamLEAM1983 said:
Stall said:
Partial snip!

Oh, this applies to American universities. If you aren't American and don't go to an American university, then please, don't tell me how "I'm wrong". I'm speaking only on what I know (which is American universities), and could care less how this generalizes to other cultures. I don't mean to sound like a jerk with this statement, but I want to avoid the inevitable "Oh, well I go to a university in X country, and this isn't true here!".
Granted, universities are businesses, and businesses can be horribly mismanaged. Case in point, the Université du Québec à Montréal (UQAM), which is where I happen to go. They needed a new student parking space and tried to build a multi-tier parking garage. Cost estimates were wildly undershot, so much so that the dean had to resign when faced with his financial incompetence.

Still, that doesn't change the fact that universities are bipartite entities. You deal with the business end of things when you register, obtain your student card, get your schedule for the semester, etc. You deal with the academic side when you're handing in reports, spending days in the library for a bibliography project, or otherwise wooing teachers so one of them agrees to support your thesis.

You sound like you've got a chip on your shoulder, OP. Has something happened in your personal relationship with an institution of higher learning that caused that overall sense of disillusion? I get it that you might be sick of the "Dead Poets Society"-ish idolization of university as a concept, but you have to admit those of us who do choose to enroll in one aren't terribly concerned with the business end of things.

In Canada, a single semester costs around 700$ for the Master's degree. I know that's a far cry from what Americans pay, but for someone who only makes about ten bucks an hour, that's an absolute fortune. That shit be expensive, man; and I can only comfort myself in thinking that sixteen other people got chosen and were allowed to pay that motherload because we, well, fucking love books and fucking love nerding all over some author or another, to put it bluntly.

In other words, my passion and my desire to see this through will always defeat any and all peals of nihilistic realism I might experience at the sight of the bill I have to heft just to attend two classes of three hours each. I'm not doing this because I'm expecting to get a job at the end of it all; I'm doing it because I love it.
Wait a minute: A Master's degree costs $700 a semester, /and/ an entry level job pays out $10 an hour? I'm going to school in the wrong country. Around here, minimum wage is under $8 an hour, and tuition is measured in thousands of dollars even at the undergrad level, and even in public schools; a master's degree costs a fortune around here. In the US, even those of us who have scholarships coming out of our ears usually wind up in debt.
He said $700 was for Canada, but that's actually just Quebec. They are among the lowest (if not the lowest) tuition rates in Canada. In Ontario, for example, tuition runs $2000-4,000/year for a basic program, and in a specialty program like dentistry you could be paying as much as $40,000/year.
Okay, that's a bit more in line with what we see in the US. I think the average (with in state tuition; state residents get a huge discount) in a Florida state school is a little over $4,000. You guys are still getting a better deal than us, assuming the actual quality of the education is comparable, but it's not as much better of a deal as it looked.

Edit: The $4,000 figure is for undergrad, obviously.
 

Ruley

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Being brutally honest with you (from a UK students point of view) yeah, your universities are basically businesses - the more money you pay out, the more worth your degree has when you graduate (MIT, Harved, etc). It totally removes the driver for learning and research as people who could arguably benefit more from the facilities offered at, say, MIT end up not getting in because they don't have the cash - but that person could have learnt from such a good professor that he suddenly gave us Hyperdrive engines! Whereas, a guy who was funded through by rich parents just coasted through and was dumped out with a mediocre degree.

As much as we might whine over here in the UK about rising tuition fees, it could be a lot worse. Across the pond over here, at least their is a standardisation of fees so education seemingly takes priority as the main driving force of our universities!
 

Palademon

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I thought the romanticising of universities came from the fact that most people learned to stop being assholes and be more open minded by then, so people who had trouble in lower levels of education finally get a good social life.
 

trooper6

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Shivarage said:
trooper6 said:
I have yet to meet anyone who has learned any of those things from education... and obviously employers don't care about "the larger educational experience" because they are well aware that is not real life experience or they would not make people do "unpaid internships"
You haven't met anyone who's learned writing skills, communications skills, critical thinking skills or analytical reasoning skills. That's interesting. I, on the other hand, who works as a University Professor, and have taught and graded and advised hundreds of students at top Universities have seen people gain those skills.

As for unpaid internships, 1) not all businesses have unpaid internships. Also 2) If employers who do employ unpaid internships didn't care about the experience one get's from going to University and truly thought there was no value to higher education, they'd give those unpaid internships to people who didn't go to college and just went to high school...or didn't even graduate high school...because they'd be cheaper. But that isn't the case.
 

trooper6

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Ruley said:
Being brutally honest with you (from a UK students point of view) yeah, you're universities are basically businesses - the more money you pay out, the more worth your degree has when you graduate (MIT, Harved, etc). It totally removes the driver for learning and research as people who could arguably benefit more from the facilities offered at, say, MIT end up not getting in because they don't have the cash - but that person could have learnt from such a good professor that he suddenly gave us Hyperdrive engines! Whereas, a guy who was funded through by rich parents just coasted through and was dumped out with a mediocre degree.

As much as we might whine over here in the UK about rising tuition fees, it could be a lot worse. Across the pond over here, at least their is a standardisation of fees so education seemingly takes priority as the main driving force of our universities!
Except that's not exactly how it works in the US. Most of the big Universities have what is called "need blind admissions." This means they make a decision for admittance based on your application, not your wallet. So if you are poor and smart, you can get into MIT. So the next question becomes, can you afford to go? The federal government and state government have need-based fellowships, and the really prestigious schools have large endowments that they use to cover your fees if you don't have money. If you get into Harvard and you don't have money, their financial aid office will take care of it.

As an example, when I was a kid, I grew up really, really poor. My mother was kicked out of her home at the age of 16 by her mother who was abusive and psychotic...so she never finished high school. She had me when she was 19. She was a single mom who was a stripper and then later on welfare (what you'd call The Dole). She met my step-dad and things got better...I joined the Army after high school. When it finally came time for me to go to college, they could not help me financially and I had no money. I applied to and got accepted to a school that was very, very good and very, very expensive. $50,000 a year...so we are looking at a bill for $200,000 for my education. The GI Bill would take care of $25,000 of it, but there was still $175,000 to cover. Through a combination of federal and state grants, the GI Bill, and support from the school, I ended up paying a total of $11,000 for my education which I funded through student loans. And at my alma mater over 70% of the student body was on financial aid.

So, actually, poor people can go to the best schools. And I ended up getting my PhD and now teach at a top University. And in that process of being at University I learned a lot of writing skills, communication skills, critical thinking skills, analytical reasoning skills, as well as more specific things related to my majors and the other courses I took.
 

Shivarage

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Lilani said:
how about you go and lobby for free primary AND secondary education for all rather than going after jobshadowing?
The classic politicians diversion, why pay attention to the turkey when you can fight over the peanuts...

Unpaid "internships" (ie. slavery) shouldn't even exist if universities were fulfilling their purpose in the first place or employers were taking them seriously - they do exist which means employers don't really believe education is worth even minimum wage.

There aren't actually a lot of paid internships, my friend couldn't find one and is now in an unpaid one which is 8 hours a day without even travel or food compensation, he works weekends just to make ends meet in his friend's flat.

Really... I don't see why we are arguing over this, the rich all work together and help each other by hiring each others friends and doing favours for each other all the while giving mixed messages to the stupid poor who end up fighting and never getting along

I am finished, arguing over this kind of stuff is useless because instead of us meeting on good terms and learning to trust one another so that we can better our own lives just like the rich do, we end up trying to get one-up over each other... being in this society means you can be dumb as a post but with the right friends/contacts, you can swim in pools of money because the stupid poor people bicker and get nowhere (Eric Pickles of the conservative party is proof and they are running the country now)
 

Shivarage

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trooper6 said:
You haven't met anyone who's learned writing skills, communications skills, critical thinking skills or analytical reasoning skills. That's interesting. I, on the other hand, who works as a University Professor, and have taught and graded and advised hundreds of students at top Universities have seen people gain those skills.

As for unpaid internships, 1) not all businesses have unpaid internships. Also 2) If employers who do employ unpaid internships didn't care about the experience one get's from going to University and truly thought there was no value to higher education, they'd give those unpaid internships to people who didn't go to college and just went to high school...or didn't even graduate high school...because they'd be cheaper. But that isn't the case.[/quote]

Not from university, from living in the real world free from the boundaries of education, in fact - I never learned anything of any significance until I left education for my mind was then able to freely grasp without restraint, I can just imagine Albert Einstein handing in his physics paper titled "the theory of relativity" and getting a failing grade because it was completely wrong according to the current curriculum - no free thinkers or geniuses allowed!

I think you will find the paid internships are in the very minority
How can an unpaid internship be cheaper? poor people can't exactly afford to sustain having to pay for an internship...

And yes, even people who havnt been to university get internships, although most of the time from the employers perspective there is merely a slightly better chance of the graduate staying longer and doing more work for he has a debt to pay and wishes to make something of the paper he worked ever so hard to get... intelligence doesn't even come into it.
 

IamLEAM1983

Neloth's got swag.
Aug 22, 2011
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Owyn_Merrilin said:
IamLEAM1983 said:
Wait a minute: A Master's degree costs $700 a semester, /and/ an entry level job pays out $10 an hour? I'm going to school in the wrong country. Around here, minimum wage is under $8 an hour, and tuition is measured in thousands of dollars even at the undergrad level, and even in public schools; a master's degree costs a fortune around here. In the US, even those of us who have scholarships coming out of our ears usually wind up in debt.
Maybe so, but you do get what you pay for. Which is to say dated libraries and computers, and teachers who tear their hair off if you so much as ask them to consider using the provided HD projectors. Add poorly maintained databases to that and spotty Wi-Fi and, well... Let's just say the budget price tag makes sense, then.

Ever since I've been given free reign to start constituting my bibliography, I've been hitting as many offsite resources as I possibly could. Getting a monography off campus almost takes a blood sample, and you practically need to sacrifice a kitten to have access to the past theses of former students. The main problem is miscommunication, seeing as requests you send off might take weeks to reach their intended authorities. It's all automated, but I guess the algo that's responsible for prioritizing cases isn't worth shit. Figures, seeing as hooking to the campus Wi-Fi is needlessly complicated.

Despite all that, the teachers do an awesome job - as long as you don't ask them to leave the safety and sanctity of their iBook Airs.

You also have to consider I'm right above minimum wage. The flat entry-level rate here is still 9.50$, last I checked. Any fellow Canucks in here? Pretty sure I'm shooting myself in the foot, I'd like confirmation (or correction, if required). Ten bucks an hour is my rough average, considering I do copy editing for a living. It pays a pittance when someone asks you to translate an email, but it gives a substantial wad back, when you're asked to translate and correct an article destined for academic publication.
 

Owyn_Merrilin

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IamLEAM1983 said:
Owyn_Merrilin said:
IamLEAM1983 said:
Wait a minute: A Master's degree costs $700 a semester, /and/ an entry level job pays out $10 an hour? I'm going to school in the wrong country. Around here, minimum wage is under $8 an hour, and tuition is measured in thousands of dollars even at the undergrad level, and even in public schools; a master's degree costs a fortune around here. In the US, even those of us who have scholarships coming out of our ears usually wind up in debt.
Maybe so, but you do get what you pay for. Which is to say dated libraries and computers, and teachers who tear their hair off if you so much as ask them to consider using the provided HD projectors. Add poorly maintained databases to that and spotty Wi-Fi and, well... Let's just say the budget price tag makes sense, then.

Ever since I've been given free reign to start constituting my bibliography, I've been hitting as many offsite resources as I possibly could. Getting a monography off campus almost takes a blood sample, and you practically need to sacrifice a kitten to have access to the past theses of former students. The main problem is miscommunication, seeing as requests you send off might take weeks to reach their intended authorities. It's all automated, but I guess the algo that's responsible for prioritizing cases isn't worth shit. Figures, seeing as hooking to the campus Wi-Fi is needlessly complicated.

Despite all that, the teachers do an awesome job - as long as you don't ask them to leave the safety and sanctity of their iBook Airs.

You also have to consider I'm right above minimum wage. The flat entry-level rate here is still 9.50$, last I checked. Any fellow Canucks in here? Pretty sure I'm shooting myself in the foot, I'd like confirmation (or correction, if required). Ten bucks an hour is my rough average, considering I do copy editing for a living. It pays a pittance when someone asks you to translate an email, but it gives a substantial wad back, when you're asked to translate and correct an article destined for academic publication.
That makes sense. You're still well ahead of the US on the minimum wage; the national minimum is currently $7.25 here, with individual states having the option of requiring a higher minimum within the borders of the state. In Florida, for example, it's currently $7.31. Considering that the Canadian dollar was trading higher than the US dollar the last time I checked, I'd say you're doing pretty well on that front, even if your education system is lacking.
 

Zyst

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So "I want to be ignorant, and in Fucking 'MERICA! Universities are money making machines and FUCK YOUR COMMIE COUNTRY."

Really, most universities (At least the good ones) Worldwide are "free" (Operate out of taxes). And you don't pay a cent, might not be like that in America, but please don't lump universities into a group of money grubbing people because it's not like that, hell, most of my teachers are investigators and wouldn't need to teach to keep living a REALLY comfortable life, but they teach because they want to propagate the knowledge, and maybe "pay back" something to their alma matter.

So do not slander Universities, even if they are "money making machines" you still learn a shit load of things I can assure you would be REALLY hard to learn otherwise.
 

IamLEAM1983

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Aug 22, 2011
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Owyn_Merrilin said:
That makes sense. You're still well ahead of the US on the minimum wage; the national minimum is currently $7.25 here, with individual states having the option of requiring a higher minimum within the borders of the state. In Florida, for example, it's currently $7.31. Considering that the Canadian dollar was trading higher than the US dollar the last time I checked, I'd say you're doing pretty well on that front, even if your education system is lacking.
Yep. It's pretty depressing, actually. The government's artificially inflating our teachers' worth by lowering its standards, which means that a lot of people who really have no business helming classrooms are being entrusted with the ability to shape tomorrow's generations. I'm working hard to ensure my degree is actually *worth* something, but I know people who pretty much coasted their way through college and university alike. These are separate entities in Quebec.

On top of that, we're seeing a lot of gung-ho newbies get in the teaching business only to crawl right back out one or two years later. It's too much pressure, or so they say...

Edit: amen to you, Zyst! Unfortunately, the only entirely free university that I know of is the Nouvelle Université de France, and I'm pretty sure the Sorbonne works or did work along similar principles. Unfortunately, my alma mater is a business through and through - no matter how much I might have appreciated my time with some teachers.

Still, I'm glad. I hate Classical Studies, and the UQAM was the only worthwhile place in Montreal where I'd be able to wax Lovecraft in French. I could've gone to Concordia or McGill, but I really wanted to stick close to my native language. I'm submerged in English about 90% of the time, so I was pretty happy at the prospect of taking a break, so to speak.
 

Rnr1224

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i completely agree with you. i have many friends who are very bright but unable to pursue higher education because of financial problems. this year actually, my school had to raise tuition and many of my friends were not able to return because of it.
 

IamLEAM1983

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Aug 22, 2011
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Rnr1224 said:
i completely agree with you. i have many friends who are very bright but unable to pursue higher education because of financial problems. this year actually, my school had to raise tuition and many of my friends were not able to return because of it.
Which is why, every semester and almost without fail, we have strikes orchestrated in various departments. I understand inflation matters, but it's reached the point where a Master's isn't exactly affordable to everyone.

I have a job, no loans and I'm backed by my folks. I know folks who are covered in loans and who probably won't make it out of their Bachelor's. There's always grants, sure, but they're so few and far between most of us just prefer to soldier through the payments on our own.
 

Dr Snakeman

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Lilani said:
Shivarage said:
That's not what they TELL you when you get there, they tell you to get a high mark for your degree and nothing more and you are guaranteed a job which are lies. they punish having broad activites by not including them in the curriculum, leading to a low value degree.

[sarcasm]Oh yes, I remember all the times the business owners did what they were told... like paying their taxes and not exporting jobs to capitalize their profits not to mention hiring more people with their tax rate deductions... yes, doing what your told definately pays off [/scarcasm]
I'm sorry, but who exactly is punishing you for having broad activities? It couldn't be the employers because they love broad resumes, and it couldn't be the university because student organizations need participation for you to survive. Or do you mean that if you participate in lots of activities, it could lower your scores? Because that isn't the fault of employers OR the university. That's your own fault for not managing your time properly, and for not knowing when you've bitten off more than you can chew.

And if you think there was ever a time when businesses "did what they were told," I think you need to do some reading up on the US industrial revolution and the work conditions and monopolies of the late 19th century/early 20th century. Historians agree the industrial revolution was one of the most corrupt eras in American history, both politically and bureaucratically. It wasn't until strict regulation came into play after WWI and the Great Depression that they stopped hiring children and making them work in front of dangerous machinery that could mangle them in an instant, gave reasonable work hours with regular breaks, stopped jacking up railroad prices in rural areas where they had the monopolies, and became required to provide basic safety equipment such as functioning fire escapes. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire]

Plus the tax situation back then? It was ridiculous. See, it was property tax rather than income tax. The reason they had property taxes was because owning lots of property usually meant you had lots of money--because you were on a farm. But then the factories came. The factories could sit on a tiny plot of land and generate more in revenue than even the largest farms could ever dream of. So while the millionaire business owners were sitting on piles of money in the northeast, impoverished farmers in the south were paying the bulk of the taxes that went to pay for the infrastructure that would in turn only benefit the urban businesses. They got that changed too, but it was still in the midst of the second worst depression in American history (I'm sure you know which one was the worst).

So quit victimizing yourself. Businesses have always been out to screw people over, that doesn't mean you have to go ahead and bend over for them. Again, make YOUR education work for YOU. And if you REALLY hate it that much, why don't you just quit? Do the benefits of having the degree outweigh the little grievances you've put for there? Then suck it up. Quit whining about it and work to make your situation better. But if that's just too much work then you have no room to be complaining.

Oh, and what is this?

yes, doing what your told definately pays off
Good Lord. Did you not read what I wrote? Or is it that you just didn't comprehend my point? My point was to NOT only do exactly what you are told to do, when it comes to making decisions about your future and your education. That's just a ridiculous way to live, mindlessly following whatever path somebody else tells you to take. Yes there are requirements you must fill, but you should never just stop there.

Now, when I said getting good scores shows employers you can do what you are told, I was referring to those required tasks set before you. Because let's face it--most workplaces usually don't offer as many opportunities to be avant-garde as school. You are asked to perform certain tasks by your bosses, and you are expected to complete them. That's sort of the point of working, you know? And having good scores shows that you are able to complete those tasks with a level of efficiency and quality.

But all in all, that's a very common trait. Doing what you are told isn't exactly a rare gift. Which is why I said at the end to not JUST do that. Doing more than the minimum is a much rarer trait, and speaks worlds of your character and dedication. Ultimately, employers don't want someone who will do the job set before them. They want someone who will not only do the job, but not hesitate to do whatever more is required to do the job as best as possible.

So, summary: Following the minimum requirements for your degree is not the way to go. Broaden your horizons--do other things. Go beyond what is required and find other useful things you can do or learn on the side. Doing what you are told is no longer good enough. The reason a degree is no longer a guarantee for a job is because they are so common now. Post-graduate jobs have officially become competitive. You can't just earn your degree then sit on your ass. You've got to work yourself up and prove yourself to be worthy of your degree and your job.
Shivarage said:
snippitude
TL;DR version?


I will take any excuse to use that video in a forum post :D

But yeah, that was an epic rant.

Shivvy, my boy, quit blaming your problems on the "elitist rich people". Quit acting like there is nothing of value in higher education. It's not perfect, but it works. Quit insulting the people who actually try to make something of themselves, and don't just whine on the internet about how school is dumb because they aren't good at it.

And for God's sake, please just... shut up. Your posts make up, like, half of the content of this thread. It's getting old.
 

StarCecil

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Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but does it make a difference to you that large - very large - proportion of college students are on some form of financial aid or scholarship (i.e. not paying). And that this proportion increases to half or over half for the most prominent colleges?
 

Shivarage

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Dr Snakeman said:
Lawl, having a degree doesn't mean someone owes you a living mate so the "make something of yourself" shite doesn't stand, hell - the first thing said to me in my first job interview was "don't you know someone who can just give you a job?"
Yep... you are gonna tell me it's a problem that can't be fixed and to just "work hard" (an incredibly vague term used by people like you who have no answers) and shut up since standing up for yourself isn't something good educated things do
 

AngloDoom

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Shivarage said:
Dr Snakeman said:
Lawl, having a degree doesn't mean someone owes you a living mate so the "make something of yourself" shite doesn't stand, hell - the first thing said to me in my first job interview was "don't you know someone who can just give you a job?"
Yep... you are gonna tell me it's a problem that can't be fixed and to just "work hard" (an incredibly vague term used by people like you who have no answers) and shut up since standing up for yourself isn't something good educated things do
I'm lost now. I'm sorry, but you'll have to forgive me and help me on my way here since I've totally lost track of where this is going.

University = Bad because you might as well make contacts with rich people.
Rich people = Go to top-end universities because they can afford to.
Going to university = Means meeting rich people and making good contacts.

Is that kind of where you are? Universities are bad because it's not about what you know, it's who you know? Also, it's not about hard-work, but smart work?

Just to clarify, thanks.