Noelveiga said:
Incidentally, on any legal discussion, whoever uses more instances of "and/or" and "willing/able" is always the biggest asshole. That's a verifiable fact.
Baresark said:
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I am fine that America is not the best in any of these regards. But people often times point to the tool being the problem, that is verifiable fact. America has a very diverse group of "citizens". Some with more morals or scruples than others. But to just point to a tool and say that is the problem is just ignorant. If there were no guns, then there would be other ways that people commit violent acts against others. I get that people don't like guns, but where I'm from, no one shoots anyone with guns they have. So, from my perspective, guns aren't the problem, but the people who get their hands on them are. I am a carpenter, I use my hammer every day just about. If people went on a wild hammer killing spree, would it make sense for them to outlaw hammers? No, it wouldn't. Just as with this, just because a few members of a society break the rules and don't respect life at all, doesn't mean that the people who don't participate in such acts need to be punished or have things taken away from them. That is kindergarten politics and I can't agree with it.
It's stupid how people regard some kind of competition about who is more/less violent as an argument. In all instances of this, it has more to do with social moorings or lack there of that is the main problem. It's called an "ah ha" statistic simply because it, in and of itself, is not telling in any way or does not pathologically show the main problem. You would seriously need to look at a lot more than just gun violence to determine the root of the problem in a society where guns are available.
It's the gross, ridiculous, absolutely offensive devotion to just lack of perspective.
It has nothing at all to do with lack of perspective, just different perspective. It most likely makes no difference to you, but there is lots of empirical data backing up the positives of an armed society. I'm not afraid to say, more than that which backs up the opposite perspective. But, people who like to make sweeping and "morally good" social decisions have never needed any kind of data to back up their points, only the nice warm feelings that their decisions leave them with at night. But from a practical perspective, it's not guns that are the problem, it's the members of any society who do not respect life that are the problem.
When everything is said and done, you want to look at a few numbers and say, "nope, your wrong". No one denies there are problems in any place, but people who do not live in America have zero perspective on this. I know that my brother has had to defend his family from criminals. I know that as shocking as it may seem, I don't know anyone who has been on the receiving end of gun violence. Nor do I know anyone who is legitimately afraid of being shot, despite the fact that so many people are armed. Like I said, I doubt you have any social perspective at all about America.
Also, I'm not saying any of this angry or spitefully, I'm just saying that I don't know about the social problem afflicting the UK, Germany, Iraq, Zimbabwe, etc. I can only gather some data from the few sources I have, but I also do not sit and say what is socially wrong with those places. There are all kinds of things you can learn from data. Economics of an area, finding out the the laws that govern an area of the world also tends to be easy. You can find out what people shop for, their GDP, the most popular car, etc., all from data. But you cannot define the social afflictions of a society based on data like this.
Just as a quick point. The violent gun statistics come almost completely from city areas where guns aren't allowed. I'll digress that point though, and say that clearly the social problems afflicting America in regards to gun violence are concentrated there, with that common lifestyle. And I won't say it's caused by poverty or any such thing, but I will say that people who lead lives in those conditions have a social factor in their lives that keeps them impoverished and make them regard life as less important, they think it's ok to take things from others. And this is not a blanket statement for all inner city poor, but it is a statement of fact that whatever is leading them to those conditions in their lives is also leading to gun violence.
