Unskippable: Star Wars The Old Republic

tehweave

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pwnsore said:
tehweave said:
Has ANYTHING good come out of Star Wars since the original trilogy?
Yes, Lego Star Wars was awesome.
Alright, thus far I've got the following list:

Original Trilogy
KOTOR

I'll hold up a vote. Who thinks Lego Star Wars should be added to the "GOOD" star wars list and who thinks it should be added to the "BAD" star wars list?
 

Kinguendo

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thenumberthirteen said:
Hagi said:
Kinguendo said:
hawk533 said:
While that cinematic may have been terribly cliche and completely wasted on an MMO, that was still pretty awesome. Three lightsabers for the ridiculous win, followed shortly after by a loss because you can't beat a Sith trainee. Everyone knows the master is the weak one.
He wasnt a trainee... there is always a Sith Master and their Apprentice, both are still considered Sith Lords. Its set up like that so that the next leader of the Sith will always be stronger than the last. Its called the Rule of Two.

So he was actually fighting 2 Sith Lords and he bested the weaker one, thats why the Apprentice killed his Master, because he knew he was more powerful and it was time for him to take over as Master.

I... I know too much about it, but its interesting as fuck to me! I cant help myself!
You do know that the Rule of Two came after the Old Republic era? About 2.000 years later?
Ooh! Force Burned! :)

OT: I really like the Old Republic cinematic stuff. Far better than the Clone Wars that's been made. This episode was, however, amazingly funny.
No, not at all... all you are doing here is perpetuating a lie. I responded to this before any other comment because your ignorance annoys me.
 

Kinguendo

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Hagi said:
Kinguendo said:
hawk533 said:
While that cinematic may have been terribly cliche and completely wasted on an MMO, that was still pretty awesome. Three lightsabers for the ridiculous win, followed shortly after by a loss because you can't beat a Sith trainee. Everyone knows the master is the weak one.
He wasnt a trainee... there is always a Sith Master and their Apprentice, both are still considered Sith Lords. Its set up like that so that the next leader of the Sith will always be stronger than the last. Its called the Rule of Two.

So he was actually fighting 2 Sith Lords and he bested the weaker one, thats why the Apprentice killed his Master, because he knew he was more powerful and it was time for him to take over as Master.

I... I know too much about it, but its interesting as fuck to me! I cant help myself!
You do know that the Rule of Two came after the Old Republic era? About 2.000 years later?
Wrong, Revan created it. That means the idea was actually about 300 years BEFORE the events in this video.
 

Kinguendo

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Lord of Torment said:
Kinguendo said:
hawk533 said:
While that cinematic may have been terribly cliche and completely wasted on an MMO, that was still pretty awesome. Three lightsabers for the ridiculous win, followed shortly after by a loss because you can't beat a Sith trainee. Everyone knows the master is the weak one.
He wasnt a trainee... there is always a Sith Master and their Apprentice, both are still considered Sith Lords. Its set up like that so that the next leader of the Sith will always be stronger than the last. Its called the Rule of Two.

So he was actually fighting 2 Sith Lords and he bested the weaker one, thats why the Apprentice killed his Master, because he knew he was more powerful and it was time for him to take over as Master.

I... I know too much about it, but its interesting as fuck to me! I cant help myself!
Yeah no, Darth Bane set up the Rule of two, this is long before him there are tons of sith running about in this setting.
Wrong, Darth Bane learned of it from a Sith Holocron left behind by Revan because Revan created it. There are many Sith running around... However they arent all Sith Lords, now are they?!
 

Kinguendo

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artanis_neravar said:
Kinguendo said:
hawk533 said:
While that cinematic may have been terribly cliche and completely wasted on an MMO, that was still pretty awesome. Three lightsabers for the ridiculous win, followed shortly after by a loss because you can't beat a Sith trainee. Everyone knows the master is the weak one.
He wasnt a trainee... there is always a Sith Master and their Apprentice, both are still considered Sith Lords. Its set up like that so that the next leader of the Sith will always be stronger than the last. Its called the Rule of Two.

So he was actually fighting 2 Sith Lords and he bested the weaker one, thats why the Apprentice killed his Master, because he knew he was more powerful and it was time for him to take over as Master.

I... I know too much about it, but its interesting as fuck to me! I cant help myself!
Indeed, people also seem to neglect, or not know, that lightsabers can have an intensity control on them, so training lightsabers, just provide a minor burning sensation on contact
Yes, and thanks for stepping in back there... I wasnt able to get to a computer in time for a speedy enough reply to correct them on their mistakes. Thanks for pointing out that Bane got the Rule of Two from Revan. Much appreciated.

EDIT: And yeah, if Lightsabers didnt have intesity controls you would think the Jedis were barbarians as you see them giving children Lightsabres!
 

Kinguendo

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tehweave said:
Kinguendo said:
tehweave said:
Dear god... That intro was EXACTLY that one scene from Episode 4.

Has ANYTHING good come out of Star Wars since the original trilogy?
HEATHEN!

KOTOR is the greatest Star Wars story ever told! The original trilogy is good and all that but the story of Revan is better in every way!
Good! Okay then, KOTOR! So far, the list includes:

A New Hope
Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
Knights of the Old Republic

Now, are there any other good Star Wars anythings? Stories, movies, games? Because there are tons of each, but are there any good ones beyond the list above?
There are quite a few people who like the Jedi Academy games... and Force unleashed. As well as quite a lot of decent comic book series.
 

Kinguendo

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Lord of Torment said:
Actually the Rule of 2 came from Darth Revan Darth Bane just reused it for his era, so the Rule of 2 originates before this game
"The holocron belonged to the ancient Sith Lord Darth Revan, who was the first to realize the flawed logic of training more than one apprentice. Through the gatekeeper of his holocron, Revan taught Bane how any master that trained multiple apprentices was a fool. Bane learned from Revan's holocron that, in times past, the students would seek to destroy their master and claim the title. By joining forces and combining their lesser powers, they would attack and defeat their master."

Revan did not start or put into practice the rule of two, he was smart enough to see the flaw in the system yes, but he only did it to train one apprentice at a time, to prevent them from teaming up. It was Darth Bane who broke the Sith and remade it into the ones who follow the rule of two.
Erm, its obvious that Revan did. He only ever had one apprentice as Darth Revan and that was Malak.
 

Hagi

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Kinguendo said:
Hagi said:
Kinguendo said:
hawk533 said:
While that cinematic may have been terribly cliche and completely wasted on an MMO, that was still pretty awesome. Three lightsabers for the ridiculous win, followed shortly after by a loss because you can't beat a Sith trainee. Everyone knows the master is the weak one.
He wasnt a trainee... there is always a Sith Master and their Apprentice, both are still considered Sith Lords. Its set up like that so that the next leader of the Sith will always be stronger than the last. Its called the Rule of Two.

So he was actually fighting 2 Sith Lords and he bested the weaker one, thats why the Apprentice killed his Master, because he knew he was more powerful and it was time for him to take over as Master.

I... I know too much about it, but its interesting as fuck to me! I cant help myself!
You do know that the Rule of Two came after the Old Republic era? About 2.000 years later?
Wrong, Revan created it. That means the idea was actually about 300 years BEFORE the events in this video.
Darth Revan: A master should only train a single apprentice at a time, because it is inevitable that his apprentices will gang up on him even though individually they weren't yet strong enough to rival the original master. Meaning that with every cycle the masters would become weaker.

Darth Bane & the Rule of Two: There should only be 2 Sith period. One Master, one apprentice. Not just one apprentice per master, but only 2 Sith in the entire universe. That's the rule of two. "Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody power, the other to crave it."

I mean Revan restarted the Sith Academy on Korriban.... how does that match with the Rule of Two?

Darth Bane created the Rule of Two. He was inspired by Darth Revan. Just like planes were inspired by birds, doesn't mean planes are birds....
 

Mikodite

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drosalion said:
Mikodite said:
drosalion said:
Mikodite said:
OK, so the storyline is about these people, a Jedi, a trooper, and a smuggler, who...

DO YOU CARE? ITS AN MMO! WHO BOTHERS WITH THE 'PLOTLINE' IN AN MMO?
Thats kinda the whole point of this game.. bioware want to change the way people think about MMOs by bringing story to it.

Why shouldnt you be able to care about those things purely caus of the genre of the game?
Have you noticed that every MMORPG has some backstory or plot running in the background? It's sad, really, someone had to write all that only for the average player to ignore it, as knowledge of the backstory has no effect on the game whatsoever.

Unless the 'plotline' isn't simply flavour text to go with your fetch quest, Bioware is wasting their time.
Yeh.. and bioware are trying to change that, by delivering the story not via a textbox but by cinematic cutscenes, and giving you actual choices that can change things in the game quite dramatically as opposed to just the choice of 'doing' or 'not doing' the quest.

Quite simply - they're bringing the RPG back into the MMORPG, and frankly i cant wait for my mmo to actually start having some meaning and purpose. I just cant really see why people seem to be so against a genuine attempt to remove grind and increase immersion by giving all the things you do in an mmo purpose.. its like people WANT their mmo to be a dull borefest? But each to their own i guess.
You have no idea how badly I want you to be right.

The shit with the cutscenes and the dialogue choices sounds awesome on paper... then you realize that its not a single-player rpg, and you will have too many players skipping the cutscenes and mashing through the dialogue shit to get to the quest for they just want to get their numbers higher than all the numbers in the land and own everyone. I remember Guild Wars had cutscenes in it... and I remember most players opting to skip them.

You want the plotline to matter to the average player? Make the bloody thing player-generated. Have us celebrate the victory of Ray_the_Jedi who lead his squadmates to slaughter some Sith scum! Or how Nibi-Tibi has taken over Coresaunt and his first priority is to legalize death-sticks. Fuck, I would totally go down for taking on Lord_Boner of the Sith if it meant peaces in the galaxy for a few months in server.

Are they planning to do that? Planning politic systems where a player could run for senate, or be the hutt? Territory control between 'factions' that amount to whether the innocent get slaughtered or not, which changes the game world depending on who won? Will I see player names in the game's canon?

Someone accused me of not doing my homework. Tell me, are they doing that?
 

Grand_Marquis

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MelasZepheos said:
Then again, it's Star Wars, all of the lightsaber fights look cool, the gamble is whether the story around them will be any good, and Han Solo, Cowboy edition just isn't doing it for me. However, the concept of having a Republic Trooper, a Smuggler, and a Jedi Apprentice who just lost her master all on one ship is one of the better beginnings for a SW story I've seen in a while.
I'd totally give them extra points for that as well...except they didn't do it for any story consideration, but purely to highlight the three major good guy factions/careers, or whatever they call em, that players can choose. So not only are they characters we shouldn't care about and will never play, but they're also marketing vehicles :D

[EDIT] and the reply above mine is so incredibly right, Mikodite should start consulting for MMO developers. Seriously, the amount of naivete I see in MMO developers regarding their user base and their willingness to sit through Lore dumps is flat out depressing. No, MMO developer, spending millions of dollars on awesome cutscenes will not make your game any different or more special than any other MMO. Regardless of how cool the characters are or how well directed the scene is. All MMO players want to do is level up, they don't care. Please get over it.
 

Quaxar

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A bit over the top, are we?
While I like the general look of it, some things seem a little odd. Of course Han Marston the space cowboy or the multi-lightsaber fight. But also little things like ship designs.
Now don't get me wrong, that Sith Star Destroyer thing looks great, I just think it looks a bit too much like... y'know... a Star Destroyer.

I mean what's wrong with using established ships like <url=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Interdictor-class_cruiser>Interdictors?

Hagi said:
Kinguendo said:
Hagi said:
Kinguendo said:
hawk533 said:
While that cinematic may have been terribly cliche and completely wasted on an MMO, that was still pretty awesome. Three lightsabers for the ridiculous win, followed shortly after by a loss because you can't beat a Sith trainee. Everyone knows the master is the weak one.
He wasnt a trainee... there is always a Sith Master and their Apprentice, both are still considered Sith Lords. Its set up like that so that the next leader of the Sith will always be stronger than the last. Its called the Rule of Two.

So he was actually fighting 2 Sith Lords and he bested the weaker one, thats why the Apprentice killed his Master, because he knew he was more powerful and it was time for him to take over as Master.

I... I know too much about it, but its interesting as fuck to me! I cant help myself!
You do know that the Rule of Two came after the Old Republic era? About 2.000 years later?
Wrong, Revan created it. That means the idea was actually about 300 years BEFORE the events in this video.
Darth Revan: A master should only train a single apprentice at a time, because it is inevitable that his apprentices will gang up on him even though individually they weren't yet strong enough to rival the original master. Meaning that with every cycle the masters would become weaker.

Darth Bane & the Rule of Two: There should only be 2 Sith period. One Master, one apprentice. Not just one apprentice per master, but only 2 Sith in the entire universe. That's the rule of two. "Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody power, the other to crave it."

I mean Revan restarted the Sith Academy on Korriban.... how does that match with the Rule of Two?

Darth Bane created the Rule of Two. He was inspired by Darth Revan. Just like planes were inspired by birds, doesn't mean planes are birds....
I was going to say that but it seems like the Force was stronger in you.

Also, you'd think in a Sith Empire with probably a few hundret Sith not everyone would listen to Revan's ideas.


Kinguendo said:
EDIT: And yeah, if Lightsabers didnt have intesity controls you would think the Jedis were barbarians as you see them giving children Lightsabres!
Only for training purposes. And not proper ones anyway.
 

drosalion

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Mikodite said:
drosalion said:
Mikodite said:
drosalion said:
Mikodite said:
OK, so the storyline is about these people, a Jedi, a trooper, and a smuggler, who...

DO YOU CARE? ITS AN MMO! WHO BOTHERS WITH THE 'PLOTLINE' IN AN MMO?
Thats kinda the whole point of this game.. bioware want to change the way people think about MMOs by bringing story to it.

Why shouldnt you be able to care about those things purely caus of the genre of the game?
Have you noticed that every MMORPG has some backstory or plot running in the background? It's sad, really, someone had to write all that only for the average player to ignore it, as knowledge of the backstory has no effect on the game whatsoever.

Unless the 'plotline' isn't simply flavour text to go with your fetch quest, Bioware is wasting their time.
Yeh.. and bioware are trying to change that, by delivering the story not via a textbox but by cinematic cutscenes, and giving you actual choices that can change things in the game quite dramatically as opposed to just the choice of 'doing' or 'not doing' the quest.

Quite simply - they're bringing the RPG back into the MMORPG, and frankly i cant wait for my mmo to actually start having some meaning and purpose. I just cant really see why people seem to be so against a genuine attempt to remove grind and increase immersion by giving all the things you do in an mmo purpose.. its like people WANT their mmo to be a dull borefest? But each to their own i guess.
You have no idea how badly I want you to be right.

The shit with the cutscenes and the dialogue choices sounds awesome on paper... then you realize that its not a single-player rpg, and you will have too many players skipping the cutscenes and mashing through the dialogue shit to get to the quest for they just want to get their numbers higher than all the numbers in the land and own everyone. I remember Guild Wars had cutscenes in it... and I remember most players opting to skip them.

You want the plotline to matter to the average player? Make the bloody thing player-generated. Have us celebrate the victory of Ray_the_Jedi who lead his squadmates to slaughter some Sith scum! Or how Nibi-Tibi has taken over Coresaunt and his first priority is to legalize death-sticks. Fuck, I would totally go down for taking on Lord_Boner of the Sith if it meant peaces in the galaxy for a few months in server.

Are they planning to do that? Planning politic systems where a player could run for senate, or be the hutt? Territory control between 'factions' that amount to whether the innocent get slaughtered or not, which changes the game world depending on who won? Will I see player names in the game's canon?

Someone accused me of not doing my homework. Tell me, are they doing that?
People enjoy it in a single player RPG, they can learn to enjoy it in a multiplayer MMO. We simply have no way of knowing whether or not it will be successful and we're scared of it because its something completely foreign to what we're used to. They sound awesome on paper because they have great potential to be awesome, and im not saying they definitely will work or it wont be a massive flop but theres no reason it cant work - we just need to give it a chance instead of outright dismissing it before the game is even released.

As for ur suggestions regarding a more sandboxey game, im sure they would appeal to some people but for me they sound completely uninteresting and i personally wouldnt enjoy them (regarding your specific examples, no, they're not doing those things). I do however enjoy a great bioware RPG and there are millions of other people who would agree with me as shown by the success of KOTOR, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and all of their earlier games. A bioware RPG that i can play with thousands of other people in a persistant MMO world? Where do i put my credit card details..

I'm not saying TOR will be the best game ever, nor that it wont be awful, but we should atleast give it a chance. Saying it will fail when we have no basis for it or any previous game to compare it to is just stupid and childish (the 'cinematic cutscenes' in guild wars were absolutely nothing like what is in TOR, and yes ive played it). I'm HOPING for the best for TOR, because I think you and I would both agree that if it DOES work it will be amazing (you said on paper it sounds great, and theres a reason for that). Whether or not it WILL work neither of us can say right now with any more certainty beyond an outright guess.
 

sarttan

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endplanets said:
Really, no joke about the fact that they let Han Solo keep his guns. I am not happy.
To be fair, his hands were cuffed when the Sith attacked. All they had to do was uncuff them.
 

Labcoat Samurai

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beniki said:
Well, it's starting to look like a mess. I was originally enthusiastic about this game. The KOTOR universe was Star Wars with it's own style, and genuinely looked like an earlier era in the Star Wars universe. But now they're trying to shoe horn in as many different styles as they can... leading to a very oriental jedi standing next to a space cowboy. I know they always had this, but if you put Han Solo and Luke Skywalker together, they still look like they share a world, even though their costume designs harken back to a cowboy and martial arts gi. Layering on the clone wars art style to the already established, more realistic, KoTOR style makes the transition to MMO more awkward. To put it simply, it doesn't look how people remember it. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's an odd choice when you're already making a radically different type of game.
Fair enough. Personally, I like their character designs so far, but to each his own.

They're also cutting corners in terms of game design. Although it looks like they have 8 classes, it's fairly clear that they simply have copies for both sides.
I noticed that, though I'm hoping that's not the whole story. Bounty hunter and Trooper may both be gadget oriented and heavily armored, but it does appear that they at least have different gadgets that fit their respective themes. Same for imperial agent and smuggler. I have quite a lot of hope left in me that these will be distinctive classes, even if they share some things in common.

Again, there's nothing wrong with this in an original game. But here, a title such as Sith or Bounty Hunter already carries a unique character, which can't simply be overlaid onto another title with different animations. To put it simply again; a passionate Sith will have the same play style as a serene Jedi. A cunning bounty hunter will share mechanics with a meat head trooper. And as an aside... isn't it a little odd that the Sith, a militaristic organisation with their own distinctive looking soldiers does not, in fact, have a soldier class? This was done because the 'Republic Trooper' was popularised in the Clone Wars saga, but is out of place since they were a new concept then, and did not exist before Palpatine created them. In fact, it wouldn't be too far a stretch to imagine them being a Sith idea, which he sought to resurrect. Again, an odd choice, at odds with the established universe.
I never actually saw Clone Wars. Heard it was awful. I suppose I can see your concern here, but I think it seems a bit unfair. Presumably both the Sith and the Republic have troopers, but having a trooper class for both sides seems to me that it exacerbates the problem of repetition between the classes. And the Bounty Hunter looks like he might be pretty distinct from the trooper... and finally, I'm hoping the trooper is more than a meathead. He'd be a pretty boring protagonist otherwise.

And you're right. It is interesting that they're exploring the other parts of the Star Wars universe, other than the Sith and Jedi. But they're crippling the great developments of the KoTOR story to do it. In KoTOR they were making Sith and Jedi more morally ambiguous, and thus, were becoming a lot more interesting. But as that cinematic shows, they're rushing back to the Sith bad, Jedi good mentality.
Yeah, that certainly seems true in the trailer, and I think in the lore, it's definitely true that the upper echelons of the sith are pretty hardcore evil. But that makes sense. This is the Sith Empire that Revan tried to prepare the galaxy for. One would expect them to be evil. I'd only be disappointed if player character sith didn't have the option to choose their own moral path. I'm optimistic that this will be well implemented.

This is leading to some fairly silly ideas, such as Smugglers being good guys. Han Solo was a good guy, it's true, and also a smuggler. But he's an exception, which made him interesting. Putting the smuggler on the 'good side' they're saying that smuggling, an illegal activity, is morally correct.
I'm not sure they're saying that any more than they're saying that bounty hunting is evil. The smuggler wants a society where he can slip between the cracks and violate the law with relatively minor consequences. That isn't the Sith Empire. Bounty Hunters, on the other hand, want to work for whoever pays them best. That *is* the Sith Empire. So these guys essentially fall onto one side of the conflict or the other not out of a devotion to a moral code but out of self interest.

I'm not saying I wont't play the game. I'm just saying that the vitriol people have against this game is that it looks like a mess of ideas, without a whole lot of real thought put into it. Or at least any thought beyond, 'It was in the movies/games/books let's copy and paste'.

Hope that clears it up for you :)
Fair enough. You've got some valid criticisms here, I think... though most of them are fairly speculative. I suppose the difference just comes down to our respective levels of optimism. Star Wars has been a lot more miss than hit lately, but Bioware still has some good will built up with me, particularly with this IP. I was a bit disappointed with Dragon Age 2, but mainly because of the asset reuse. If there's one thing this game won't have, it's a lack of content.