Update: Fan "Fixes" Mass Effect 3 Ending With A 539-Page Rewrite

Saulkar

Regular Member
Legacy
Aug 25, 2010
3,142
2
13
Country
Canuckistan
CloudAtlas said:
Saulkar said:
CloudAtlas said:
I don't know about you personally, of course, but it's certainly true that many gamers have problems with liking something while being critical of certain aspects at the same time, or vice versa, to loosely quote Anita Sarkeesian. It's either all or nothing. And that's sad, not very mature, and makes all these discussions so infinitely more annoying.
It is very different from person to person. Often times it is dictated by what a person wants in a game and, or story. While you no doubt enjoy ME3 (kudos) I cannot reconcile my own personal gripes. At the same time Fallout: New Vagas was lambasted for its buggy nature but at the same time was beloved by many more because the game itself outweighed said bugs.

While there were still those who were of the all or nothing mentality they were overwhelmingly outweighed by those who loved it. Unfortunately I ME3 is the definition of polarization but even if I am in the minority that do not like the game beyond that it is the popular thing to do, it does not bother me.
So you are apparently able to see the flaws in stuff you like and the redeeming qualities of stuff you don't like. You might not have those difficulties you think you have after all.
I am just reiterating to make sure we are on the same page. Okay, here I go.

You are recognizing that I can see the good in stuff I do not like and the bad in the stuff I like? Furthermore, have I properly expressed that it is always different from person to person and thus bugs may not break a game for me while story issues can, dictated by what I personally want in a game vs what you want in a game? I hope that made sense.
 

The Great Fungus

New member
Dec 9, 2013
19
0
0
CloudAtlas said:
the hidden eagle said:
Most people who defend the endings can't even explain why they prefer to ignore the plotholes or the out of character moments,instead they belittle those who can provide articulate arguements for why the ending is bad with the same tired BS"You just don't get it/you just wanted a happy ending with unicorns and rainbows,you're entitled."
And you think my life is happier in threads like these being told every time Mass Effect comes up that it's all shit and has no redeeming qualities whatsoever - i.e. implying that I'm liking shit?

I've been discussing this in the past, I did provide specific reasons, sometimes the discussions were interesting, but often futile. I could explain, and I wasn't the only one, not by far. But it didn't matter if I write pages about what I like, adressing some criticisms explaining how I disagree on them and why, and acknowledging what I didn't like myself (of which there was plenty), many people had already made up their minds long ago and weren't open the least to other points of views. Not agreeing with me, mind, just understanding that yea you can see some things a different way too, you can weight different matters differently, and therefore come to a different overall conclusions. And, no, these people rarely were professors of literature, of that I'm sure.
That was especially true when I tried to talk about not the surface, the storytelling mechanics, specific characters, plot holes ore the like, but the deeper themes and meanings. I could elaborate on that for pages, yet still get responses as sophisticated as 'herp derp no no meaning whatsoever'.

So don't come me with mature.

On a more general note, it seems to be pretty en vogue to make a sport out of finding plot holes, story inconsistencies and the like in movies these days, combined with a sentiment of superiority: I'm so smart to see all these holes, everyone who enjoys a movie anyway must be doing so because he's too dumb to see them too.
But they're not. If you're enthralled enough by a story, you can forgive many a flaw in this department. And a movie is not necessarily bad for it. You could make a similar argument for the Mass Effect ending: Many people were simply enthralled by Mass Effect, and the flaws were not enough to break the spell (completely). But they're not ignorant for it, they're not dumb for it, and it doesn't mean they have no idea about storytelling.
And since I already went on a little tangent with movies here, you know, let me just mention Avatar, which I watched again recently. I still like it, it still touched me, but that doesn't mean that I didn't want to rip my hair out several times about some characters and story elements. Yes, that is possible. Now would I mind anyone not liking Avatar? Of course not. But do I mind anyone belittling me because I like it anyway? Yes I would.
But what if the thing you like really is bad (without being funny bad)? I believe that there are certain standards that pieces of entertainment have to meet before you can call them good. Whether you enjoy them or not is a completely different issue. In my case, stories with too many serious flaws tend to put me off. I simply can't help it.
Mass Effect has those serious flaws and you can't just ignore them or play them down in order to rate the series more highly. What do themes, meanings and symbolism matter if they're build upon a broken narrative? Not much if you ask me. There are countless examples of failed attempts at creating something meaningful. And the reason they failed is that the stuff around those deeper ideas didn't work. I'll admit, ME isn't completely terrible but neither is it anything remarkable.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,759
0
0
ZippyDSMlee said:
It patches out the most damnign parts of it making it worth the while.
It doesn't fix anything because it doesn't change anything. Bioware still wrote an ending so bad their fans had to switch to conspiracy theories (Which Bioware stamped out) to try and salvage it. The writing is still bad, the ending is still bad, the game is still bad.
 

Fox12

AccursedT- see you space cowboy
Jun 6, 2013
4,828
0
0
*Looks at 600 page fan rewrite complete with DLC and concept art*

*Looks at own unfinished novel lying on floor*

Well, fuck.
 

ZippyDSMlee

New member
Sep 1, 2007
3,959
0
0
Zachary Amaranth said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
It patches out the most damnign parts of it making it worth the while.
It doesn't fix anything because it doesn't change anything. Bioware still wrote an ending so bad their fans had to switch to conspiracy theories (Which Bioware stamped out) to try and salvage it. The writing is still bad, the ending is still bad, the game is still bad.
For the most part that would only count if the game was not cheaper than new DLC.
 

ZippyDSMlee

New member
Sep 1, 2007
3,959
0
0
Fox12 said:
*Looks at 600 page fan rewrite complete with DLC and concept art*

*Looks at own unfinished novel lying on floor*

Well, fuck.
Sucks don't it? For me its like 40 pages of streaming consciousness and as many pages of notes and thoughts.
 

Rastrelly

%PCName
Mar 19, 2011
602
0
0
Sgt. Sykes said:
1337mokro said:
The ending was a trainwreck of EPIC proportions and just all round horrible writing. However unlike most people outraged or who were happy with the ending I expected it to suck. I was still angry but the signs were there from Mass Effect 2 that they really had no idea what to do given the meandering plot of the second game.
Oh right you convinced me, how could I be so wrong liking something that many other people don't? I thought there's something such as subjective and taste, how I was wrong all along!
There are subjective things and objective things. Subjectively you can like whatever you want. Objectively ALL the ME3 plot (as well as ME1 and 2 in fact, but in those cases it was not so obvious) is a mindblowing mess of impossible events and processes, where nearly every single event cannot happen the way it does both by common sense and ME world rules. But, hey, who cares?
 

CloudAtlas

New member
Mar 16, 2013
873
0
0
The Great Fungus said:
But what if the thing you like really is bad (without being funny bad)? I believe that there are certain standards that pieces of entertainment have to meet before you can call them good. Whether you enjoy them or not is a completely different issue. In my case, stories with too many serious flaws tend to put me off. I simply can't help it.
Well and you don't have to help it. As I tried to argue, while I don't like many things myself, the merits of some of the common critiques are debatable (not necessarily wrong but debatable!), some come down to personal taste, some don't really matter much for some.
But this is going nowhere. I am, unsurprisingly, just not very fond of someone telling me I like shit when I believe I have many good reasons for liking it.

Rastrelly said:
There are subjective things and objective things. Subjectively you can like whatever you want. Objectively ALL the ME3 plot (as well as ME1 and 2 in fact, but in those cases it was not so obvious) is a mindblowing mess of impossible events and processes, where nearly every single event cannot happen the way it does both by common sense and ME world rules. But, hey, who cares?
A bold claim.
 

CloudAtlas

New member
Mar 16, 2013
873
0
0
Saulkar said:
You are recognizing that I can see the good in stuff I do not like and the bad in the stuff I like? Furthermore, have I properly expressed that it is always different from person to person and thus bugs may not break a game for me while story issues can, dictated by what I personally want in a game vs what you want in a game? I hope that made sense.
Obviously, yes.

At the end of the day, do I really understand myself why I like Avatar and dislike Prometheus, even though there is some awful stuff in both movies? Why imho questionable premises break Hunger Games or Elysium for me, but don't break other movies? And why I like Mass Effect while others don't?
If you (not you personally, people in general) are honest, whether you like something or not is not a totally rational process, not by far. Oftentimes, the feeling comes first, and you're looking for reasons why you feel this or that way afterwards - you're post-rationalizing. The truth is, humans post-rationalize an awful lot, we really don't think about our decisions as much as we want to believe (and proving this makes for amusing experiments). While all that is unavoidable to a certain extent, what is not unavoidable is to close yourself to different opinions. So if you didn't enjoy something and you take to the web afterwards to share your thoughts, confirm your suspicions, look for answers why, can only profit from listening to dissenting voices as well. Works wonders against confirmation bias too. You might not agree with them, but sometimes you might see things in a different light, you might understand why people don't think like you do.

But that is of course not a very popular exercise for people on the internet.

Edit: Oh, and by the way, there a lot of things I don't like about all parts of Mass Effect as well. I'm certainly not a fanboy. Hell, I couldn't even finish Mass Effect 1 because I found gameplay and graphics too awful, and I will readily cite Mass Effect 2 as a prime example for the 'weak middle section problem' that plagues many trilogies.
 

Saulkar

Regular Member
Legacy
Aug 25, 2010
3,142
2
13
Country
Canuckistan
CloudAtlas said:
Saulkar said:
You are recognizing that I can see the good in stuff I do not like and the bad in the stuff I like? Furthermore, have I properly expressed that it is always different from person to person and thus bugs may not break a game for me while story issues can, dictated by what I personally want in a game vs what you want in a game? I hope that made sense.
Obviously, yes.

At the end of the day, do I really understand myself why I like Avatar and dislike Prometheus, even though there is some awful stuff in both movies? Why imho questionable premises break Hunger Games or Elysium for me, but don't break other movies? And why I like Mass Effect while others don't?
If you (not you personally, people in general) are honest, whether you like something or not is not a totally rational process, not by far. Oftentimes, the feeling comes first, and you're looking for reasons why you feel this or that way afterwards - you're post-rationalizing. The truth is, humans post-rationalize an awful lot, we really don't think about our decisions as much as we want to believe (and proving this makes for amusing experiments). While all that is unavoidable to a certain extent, what is not unavoidable is to close yourself to different opinions. So if you didn't enjoy something and you take to the web afterwards to share your thoughts, confirm your suspicions, look for answers why, can only profit from listening to dissenting voices as well. Works wonders against confirmation bias too. You might not agree with them, but sometimes you might see things in a different light, you might understand why people don't think like you do.

But that is of course not a very popular exercise for people on the internet.
In that case I think we have successfully come to a proper understanding of each others position and leave with a little bit more in the end.
 

CloudAtlas

New member
Mar 16, 2013
873
0
0
Saulkar said:
In that case I think we have successfully come to a proper understanding of each others position and leave with a little bit more in the end.
I never thought I'll see the day I will be able to close an argument on the Ending of Mass Effect on such an amicable note.
 

Saulkar

Regular Member
Legacy
Aug 25, 2010
3,142
2
13
Country
Canuckistan
CloudAtlas said:
Saulkar said:
In that case I think we have successfully come to a proper understanding of each others position and leave with a little bit more in the end.
I never thought I'll see the day I will be able to close an argument on the Ending of Mass Effect on such an amicable note.
There is more that I feel could be discussed but I feel content leaving it at that. Have a good one.
 

CloudAtlas

New member
Mar 16, 2013
873
0
0
Saulkar said:
CloudAtlas said:
Saulkar said:
In that case I think we have successfully come to a proper understanding of each others position and leave with a little bit more in the end.
I never thought I'll see the day I will be able to close an argument on the Ending of Mass Effect on such an amicable note.
There is more that I would like to discuss but I feel content leaving it at that. Have a good one.
If you want to discuss anything specific, do tell. I'm somewhat reluctant to dive back into the actual content again, but I just might. Even though it can only end in tears. ;)
 

Rastrelly

%PCName
Mar 19, 2011
602
0
0
CloudAtlas said:
Rastrelly said:
There are subjective things and objective things. Subjectively you can like whatever you want. Objectively ALL the ME3 plot (as well as ME1 and 2 in fact, but in those cases it was not so obvious) is a mindblowing mess of impossible events and processes, where nearly every single event cannot happen the way it does both by common sense and ME world rules. But, hey, who cares?
A bold claim.
I had a big discussion on this subjext some time ago but had to drop it due to exaustion. But a few points.
1) Why did Saren need a Conduit in the first place? Before he was proved to be gone rogue he could gain access to Counsil chamber with ease and let the Reapers in.
2) How could Crucible be built in so short period of time when much, much lesser objects are built through decades? Especially concerning industry being basically destroyed through all the galaxy and even it it wasn't it would require complete rewamp to be able to produce required parts in required quantities.
3) Why do Reapers seem to smash through all defenses as there are none, but then for no reason stuck in fight with remainders of those defenses?
4) Why the Citadel was not blocked immediately after Reaper attack? Gameplay clearly indicates the Reapers ARE everywhere. They could blockade or capture the Citadel with ease at the beginning thus winning the war (AS THEY DID TIME AFTER TIME IN THE PAST!!!)
5) How can it be that Omega Relay is not being a) studied as a serious anomaly within existing net of relays; b) well guarded as a dangerous object (and don't tell me about political reasons - if somewhere in Somali a suspicious wormhole would open there WOULD be placed international research facility and UN military base).
6) How can Collector ship sneak through Omega relay unnoticed when there's Omega station at the same star system and lots of ships should be present all the time?
7) How did humanity manage to decipher prothean technical documentation so fast? It would take some time to translate DIN blueprint into, say, USCD, but, hey, it's alien data, so we read it elementary and with ease!
8) If Reapers have such an awesome weapons of mass destruction as that one they used on Tyrian homeworld, why wasn't it used more often?
9) So now throwing a badge is enough to be free from tribunal? Funny. IRL everyone would consider Shepard to be free roaming mass murderer by the logic of previous events. And all this crap with trial was simply pointless from literary perspective.
10) Ending has no sense. Little boy has no sense. Further events have no sense. Destruction of mass relays has no sense. Possibility to play afterwards has no sense.

I'm tired. I'll go now. No need to respond to this post - I won't answer or even read answers if they'll appear.
 

Saulkar

Regular Member
Legacy
Aug 25, 2010
3,142
2
13
Country
Canuckistan
CloudAtlas said:
Saulkar said:
CloudAtlas said:
Saulkar said:
In that case I think we have successfully come to a proper understanding of each others position and leave with a little bit more in the end.
I never thought I'll see the day I will be able to close an argument on the Ending of Mass Effect on such an amicable note.
There is more that I would like to discuss but I feel content leaving it at that. Have a good one.
If you want to discuss anything specific, do tell. I'm somewhat reluctant to dive back into the actual content again, but I just might. Even though it can only end in tears. ;)
Well, to be honest. I only have the complete honest and open desire for your to personally express your feelings, not opinion or dissection, but feelings of ME3's story leading up to and concluding with the ending. If you feel that someone might rudely jump in then just PM me instead.

Since I am asking something of you I will go first with another hotly contested one.

The ending of Halo 2.

Now to be honest I can understand why there was so much initial rage when the ending was discovered. There was the constant, hammered home message that this was the end of the game, that this was the one where you Finished The Fight but it ended on a cliff hanger. As for me, I loved it! I always felt that Halo could Evolve and that while it really boiled down to a marketing blunder my own personal experience as a wide-eyed 12 year old hammering through the game on Legendary to have an ending that promised more simply overshadowed any possible ill will in that I would have to wait nearly three years to continue. Some people say that if they could go back and change things that they would redo the campaign to have it all over back in 2004 and while I emphasise with their motivation I do not support it. The arcing trilogy that ended on a mysterious note was a major source of happiness during my childhood. I guess it is also why I could never really force myself to play Halo 4 as I feel it is sort of a disservice to the relatively bittersweet resolution of the Human-Covenant War.
 

MatsVS

Tea & Grief
Nov 9, 2009
423
0
0
Eamar said:
But spending a year and a bit writing a 500+ page fanfic? Really? I mean, it's up to him how he spends his time of course, but I can't help but wonder what else this guy could have spent all this time and effort on...
Considering the quality of what he's written here, I highly doubt the literary world has been robbed of some great masterpiece due to him wasting a year of his life.

Yikes, that came out harsh. Still...
 

Someone Depressing

New member
Jan 16, 2011
2,417
0
0
BIOWARE.

Your fans are going to insane measures to try to convince themselves that you don't suck.

Just use this guy's script, six months later, make a huge, overhauling patch to the game, and simply end the ME franchise before you ruin it again.

They're not going to, though. They never would.
 

Sandernista

New member
Feb 26, 2009
1,302
0
0
chstens said:
I've followed Mass Effect since the beginning, and consider myself a huge fan of the franchise, and I just found the original ending underwhelming at worst. It wasn't good, but it's not even close to as bad as the majority claims. So does that mean I'm just better at managing my expectations than most of the vocal Internet?
Sounds more like you never listened to any press about Mass Effect at all.
 

CloudAtlas

New member
Mar 16, 2013
873
0
0
Hafrael said:
chstens said:
I've followed Mass Effect since the beginning, and consider myself a huge fan of the franchise, and I just found the original ending underwhelming at worst. It wasn't good, but it's not even close to as bad as the majority claims. So does that mean I'm just better at managing my expectations than most of the vocal Internet?
Sounds more like you never listened to any press about Mass Effect at all.
Don't confuse the press with the audience. The press gave Mass Effect 3 very good scores, with a metascore of 89-93, so apparently they weren't exactly disappointed overall. The users however...