Update: TVTropes Deletes All Rape Tropes

[John Funk]

The nerd/geek community right now is in the middle of a phase of self-examination when it comes to the use of sexual violence as a storytelling device in media for one, and the treatment of women and female characters for another.

I see the deletion of these Rape Tropes articles as a plus point, the gaming community is in a state of self reflection at the minute after E3 and its probably for the best that the gamers formulate their own opinions on this hot topic instead of regugitatating a trope a 14 year old from Alaska wrote in their spare time.

Take some points from a trope yes, but think for yourself.

Can you tell me what happened at E3 with female reporters, I feel like I'm living under a rock or something.

This Kotaku article [http://www.kotaku.com.au/2012/06/513794/] about the treatment of (at least one) female journalist at E3.

Thanks for sending me the link. Having skimmed it, that's it?. A PR guy just assumed that someone couldn't play a game? That hardly seems like something to make a big deal out of.

Because she was a woman, yes. It's less this individual incident and more a conversation about how the industry views women journalists / treats them as though they aren't legitimate.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Because she was a woman, yes. It's less this individual incident and more a conversation about how the industry views women journalists / treats them as though they aren't legitimate.

I don't think its fair to say that a few PR guys represent then entire industry. As for the journalist being offended, that's their choice I guess.

 

[Jamous]

While it's good that the threads are going back up, and indeed good for Google to have a policy on that sort of terms, surely it'd be much better to actually look at the pages in greater detail and see what they're actually about before getting the plug pulled.

Not looking at them in more detail is actually Fast Eddie the site owner's fault. He merely blocked all pages with the word rape in it because of laziness. That's why mind rape was lost but all rapists are murderers stayed.

What? Why would someone do that? Surely that's just hurting his own site? Or am I simply hopelessly naive when it comes to my understanding of webhosting? Either way, it seems to be an incredibly stupid thing to do.
Oh, and also what I meant about Google checking before pulling the plug was seeing whether a site's actually 'explicit' or not, as I'd certainly not call TVTropes explicit simply for discussing the rape tropes that show up throughout fiction. But maybe that's again just myself and my naivety.

 

[Illyasviel]

...

No, gamers make everyone else feel bad. Including me, and I'm a god damned gamer.
But after the debacle with Women vs Tropes and the rpg-net threads I've been reading the past weekend and much of this week have made me think that gaming has very little right to exist...because hey, rather defend rape than not come across like creepy fuckwads because "FREE SPEECH MEANS I GET TO CALL YOU ******!"
When there's no responsibility, the shit just gets thrown without purpose.

Because, rather defend rape... than not come across like freaky fuckwads?

What are you trying to say here?

TVTropes chronicling what medias in which rape(s) have occurred in is not participating in rape and is not encouraging rape. They aren't being in anyway complicit with any type of activity associated with rape. Its just a list. Its not even a biased list. Even putting aside First Amendment rights, ITS STILL JUST A LIST. Now if only the rape list was super long and super detailed while the majority of other trope lists have less than a half-dozen examples each, okay, there's something going on here. Its still legal and protected by the First Amendment, but it would be odd. Except that's not the case. They've treated that topic like every single other topic in their vast catalogue of topics.

They're not saying rape is a particularly evil trope and they're not saying 'lol rape.' All they said is this is rape, this is how its a trope and this is a list where you can see an example of this rape as this trope.

That's it.

So what exactly are you defending? Why don't we just ban everything that can be offensive or subjectively make you seem like a 'freaky fuckwad' to somebody else?

A list of Holocaust victims? A list of Japanese who were held in internment camps during WW2?

That would be dumb. Right? Right.

And they are being censored for it. Sure its an unintentional byproduct of a poorly written policy, but that's still censorship. I have a problem with that.

First wave feminism, voting and social rights. A great, important step forward. Second wave feminism, workplace equality and more social equality. Terrific. Third wave feminism. Censoring, not even a discussion about rape, just a list of mostly FICTIONAL rapes? What are we really accomplishing here? Are real feminists even celebrating? "FUCK YES, WE FINALLY GOT RID OF THAT TERRIBLE, MEAN, SUPER-EVIL LIST OF FICTIONAL RAPES ON THAT ONE WEBSITE!" Why then, are we putting words in their mouths? Are you sure you're not just white knighting this?

 

[NortherWolf]

...

No, gamers make everyone else feel bad. Including me, and I'm a god damned gamer.
But after the debacle with Women vs Tropes and the rpg-net threads I've been reading the past weekend and much of this week have made me think that gaming has very little right to exist...because hey, rather defend rape than not come across like creepy fuckwads because "FREE SPEECH MEANS I GET TO CALL YOU ******!"
When there's no responsibility, the shit just gets thrown without purpose.

Because, rather defend rape... than not come across like freaky fuckwads?

What are you trying to say here?

TVTropes chronicling what medias in which rape(s) have occurred in is not participating in rape and is not encouraging rape. They aren't being in anyway complicit with any type of activity associated with rape. Its just a list. Its not even a biased list. Even putting aside First Amendment rights, ITS STILL JUST A LIST. Now if only the rape list was super long and super detailed while the majority of other trope lists have less than a half-dozen examples each, okay, there's something going on here. Its still legal and protected by the First Amendment, but it would be odd. Except that's not the case. They've treated that topic like every single other topic in their vast catalogue of topics.

They're not saying rape is a particularly evil trope and they're not saying 'lol rape.' All they said is this is rape, this is how its a trope and this is a list where you can see an example of this rape as this trope.

That's it.

So what exactly are you defending? Why don't we just ban everything that can be offensive or subjectively make you seem like a 'freaky fuckwad' to somebody else?

A list of Holocaust victims? A list of Japanese who were held in internment camps during WW2?

That would be dumb. Right? Right.

And they are being censored for it. Sure its an unintentional byproduct of a poorly written policy, but that's still censorship. I have a problem with that.

First wave feminism, voting and social rights. A great, important step forward. Second wave feminism, workplace equality and more social equality. Terrific. Third wave feminism. Censoring, not even a discussion about rape, just a list of mostly FICTIONAL rapes? What are we really accomplishing here? Are real feminists even celebrating? "FUCK YES, WE FINALLY GOT RID OF THAT TERRIBLE, MEAN, SUPER-EVIL LIST OF FICTIONAL RAPES ON THAT ONE WEBSITE!" Why then, are we putting words in their mouths? Are you sure you're not just white knighting this?

I'm saying the gaming hobby as a whole doesn't seem to be mature enough to handle rape without an unhealthy dose of misogynistic BS served alongside it.
And while I missed those pages when they were up, everyone seems to argue that they pretty much were "Rape fap material here. Lololol."
White knighting, defending to get laid? Yeah, pretty fucking sure here. I've just reached a rather depressing insight about the two hobbies (tabletop rpgs and videogames) that I've been a part for most of my life.
And that insight is: Gaming, no matter how much gamers rage agaist stereotypes by the media, in filled with those very same stereotypes.

Question, if the Holocaust pages amounted to "Lulz here there be holocaust stuff"...You think that someone WOULDN'T tear it down?

Thing is, maybe it's because i*m a dumb, backwater Swede...But I don't see those waves of feminism...All I see is men and women striving for equal rights, and on one end a small number of women who're political zealots, while there's a huge number of men on the other who at best seem to think. "Well, things are good now! Oh yes sireeee! All fine! LALALAAL!" Or, "Women should be fucked so that they're happy."

 

[him over there]

While it's good that the threads are going back up, and indeed good for Google to have a policy on that sort of terms, surely it'd be much better to actually look at the pages in greater detail and see what they're actually about before getting the plug pulled.

Not looking at them in more detail is actually Fast Eddie the site owner's fault. He merely blocked all pages with the word rape in it because of laziness. That's why mind rape was lost but all rapists are murderers stayed.

What? Why would someone do that? Surely that's just hurting his own site? Or am I simply hopelessly naive when it comes to my understanding of webhosting? Either way, it seems to be an incredibly stupid thing to do.
Oh, and also what I meant about Google checking before pulling the plug was seeing whether a site's actually 'explicit' or not, as I'd certainly not call TVTropes explicit simply for discussing the rape tropes that show up throughout fiction. But maybe that's again just myself and my naivety.

There isn't anything explicit on the site per se but the userbase is filled with all kinds of horrible people and that eventually crops up on the wiki. It's a reputation thing. Plenty of tropers have admitted to being rape fetishists in the 300k+ post fetish thread so it kind of creates an air of dishonesty and depravity regarding the rape trope pages since it's a user editted wiki.

 

[Jamous]

While it's good that the threads are going back up, and indeed good for Google to have a policy on that sort of terms, surely it'd be much better to actually look at the pages in greater detail and see what they're actually about before getting the plug pulled.

Not looking at them in more detail is actually Fast Eddie the site owner's fault. He merely blocked all pages with the word rape in it because of laziness. That's why mind rape was lost but all rapists are murderers stayed.

What? Why would someone do that? Surely that's just hurting his own site? Or am I simply hopelessly naive when it comes to my understanding of webhosting? Either way, it seems to be an incredibly stupid thing to do.
Oh, and also what I meant about Google checking before pulling the plug was seeing whether a site's actually 'explicit' or not, as I'd certainly not call TVTropes explicit simply for discussing the rape tropes that show up throughout fiction. But maybe that's again just myself and my naivety.

There isn't anything explicit on the site per se but the userbase is filled with all kinds of horrible people and that eventually crops up on the wiki. It's a reputation thing. Plenty of tropers have admitted to being rape fetishists in the 300k+ post fetish thread so it kind of creates an air of dishonesty and depravity regarding the rape trope pages since it's a user editted wiki.

Eh, I suppose that's more understandable, but still; the content of the site itself seems pretty decent regardless of what the userbase is.

 

[repeating integers]

If you read the forums, you could see where former members who jumped ship like myself got their reasoning.

EDIT.

I thought I recognized that username. Blitzwing, weren't you banned from the Tvtropes forums a while ago? Certainly explains a few things.

Sooo... you're not gonna respond to any of Treblaine's good points? Because your fixation on and focused hatred of pedophiles and "creepy" people is beginning to get... well, creepy.

"Freedom to act like a pervert" indeed. Newsflash: On the internet, that's exactly what you have. Deal with it.

 

[Cid Silverwing]

I'm on TV Tropes -right now- and I can still access any article with "Rape" in the title.

Either Google is just censoring TV Tropes from their searches, they're slow at deleting the articles or nothing is being done.

Captcha: good for nothing

 

[Soviet Heavy]

If you read the forums, you could see where former members who jumped ship like myself got their reasoning.

EDIT.

I thought I recognized that username. Blitzwing, weren't you banned from the Tvtropes forums a while ago? Certainly explains a few things.

Sooo... you're not gonna respond to any of Treblaine's good points? Because your fixation on and focused hatred of pedophiles and "creepy" people is beginning to get... well, creepy.

"Freedom to act like a pervert" indeed. Newsflash: On the internet, that's exactly what you have. Deal with it.

That wasn't a response to Treblaine. Anyways, if you all want to keep blaming big bad google, go right ahead. At least their threats are getting Fast Eddie to listen. He wants to keep his precious website running, he'll have to clean out the trash. And I'll enjoy listening to all the people whining about censorship.

TvTropes brought this on themselves.

 

[saintdane05]

You guy's read that TVTROPES is reinstating this stuff, right? Its like, in the article.

Also, the fetish stuff was moved to a sperate wiki.

OT: To me, this doesn't matter. It was only about a maybe 3% cut of content. I still love the site, and I still think it is one of the greatest sites on the internet.

 

[repeating integers]

If you read the forums, you could see where former members who jumped ship like myself got their reasoning.

EDIT.

I thought I recognized that username. Blitzwing, weren't you banned from the Tvtropes forums a while ago? Certainly explains a few things.

Sooo... you're not gonna respond to any of Treblaine's good points? Because your fixation on and focused hatred of pedophiles and "creepy" people is beginning to get... well, creepy.

"Freedom to act like a pervert" indeed. Newsflash: On the internet, that's exactly what you have. Deal with it.

That wasn't a response to Treblaine. Anyways, if you all want to keep blaming big bad google, go right ahead. At least their threats are getting Fast Eddie to listen. He wants to keep his precious website running, he'll have to clean out the trash. And I'll enjoy listening to all the people whining about censorship.

TvTropes brought this on themselves.

Yeah, I knew you weren't responding to Treblaine, I was just wondering if you were going to.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Yeah, I knew you weren't responding to Treblaine, I was just wondering if you were going to.

If it means that much to you, then fine, I'll respond to him.

What do you hope to achieve by badgering paedos into silence or banishment? That they'll somehow just stop being paedos, or that if they go away they are somehow less of a problem overall? Is your problem with paedos the assumption that they all hurt children, or do you just hate them because they are different?

Also, you can't so easily dismiss freedom of speech. You have to actually make an argument for why it does not apply to paedos talking about weird loli fetish, yet still applies to other subjects of discourse. There is an argument to be made, but you can't throw out the baby (freedom of speech) with the bathwater.

This "shit" didn't follow you anywhere you go, it is everywhere on the internet, people are resistant to infringement on freedom of speech for the precedent it sets.

My assumption is not that all peados are child molesters. My assumption is that the TvTropes userbase has a collection of idiots who try to justify pornographic and pedophile material on a website that their owner is trying to purport being "family friendly."

My point is that freedom of speech should only be applied to TvTropes if they in turn can treat the subject material with respect, something that they repeatedly have proven they cannot do. If you are a pedophile, I don't want to hear about it. And I especially don't want to hear your justifications. I don't know how many times I heard the "I'm a hebephile/ephebophile so it's really okay!" argument on their forum. That isn't something you should be talking about on a public website.

Google caught wind of Tvtropes problems beforehand. This is actually the second time that they've had to tell Fast Eddie to clean up his site. They are not the ones who are at fault here. The first time Google pulled ad revenue was in 2010, since Adsense prohibits adult content. Instead of cleaning the articles, Fast Eddie put up a wall around them with an age barrier. Google Adsense would not be applied to those pages, but articles not behind the curtain would be able to sustain them.

The second time started with their article on Tentacle Porn. Google had had enough of Eddie's lack of cleaning, and threatened to remove all ad revenue if they didn't clean up their act, regardless of whether an article was behind the curtain. Either clean the shit up, or find another ad service. This applied to the Rape Tropes.

But instead of actually cleaning the pages, they just rename them. Other people in this thread argued that Google forcing the page cuts doesn't make the problem go away, but the opposite is also true. Renaming the pages to appease google isn't going to make the problem go away. And that problem is the userbase for TvTropes in the first place. Google would never have had to put its foot down if the Tropers had been able to handle their articles with restraint or maturity, rather than turning them into indexes for their favorite porn.

So, no, this is not a personal vendetta against pedophiles by trying to shame them into silence. This is me calling out the editors and the idiots who let this happen through their own ignorance. They just couldn't shut up about their fetishes, they couldn't keep them out of the touchy articles, and now they are paying for it.

 

[Illyasviel]

I'm saying the gaming hobby as a whole doesn't seem to be mature enough to handle rape without an unhealthy dose of misogynistic BS served alongside it.

Thing is, maybe it's because i*m a dumb, backwater Swede...But I don't see those waves of feminism...All I see is men and women striving for equal rights, and on one end a small number of women who're political zealots, while there's a huge number of men on the other who at best seem to think. "Well, things are good now! Oh yes sireeee! All fine! LALALAAL!" Or, "Women should be fucked so that they're happy."

So you're saying to censor all of it? That's a severe overreaction.

A list of Holocaust victims is just a list. The intentions of those who use that list is altogether different. Its just like whether revealing clothing is exploitative or not. Wasn't there just a thread on that? The answer is it depends. If a female persons, on her own volition, wears such clothing because it makes her feel more attractive, then no, no exploitation occurred. You can argue the very fact that it makes her feel attractive is a social construction created to serve men by the eeEVVvilllLLlll Patriarchy or whatever dumb crap, but in the end, she voluntarily made the choice and I'm not going to tell her she can't wear what she wants.

If you really don't think gaming is a place for you, then leave gaming. Find a different hobby or don't go on public message boards. Btw, love you Scandinavian countries. Would like to live there one day; maybe when I'm retired or something haha.

 

[Treblaine]

Yeah, I knew you weren't responding to Treblaine, I was just wondering if you were going to.

If it means that much to you, then fine, I'll respond to him.

What do you hope to achieve by badgering paedos into silence or banishment? That they'll somehow just stop being paedos, or that if they go away they are somehow less of a problem overall? Is your problem with paedos the assumption that they all hurt children, or do you just hate them because they are different?

Also, you can't so easily dismiss freedom of speech. You have to actually make an argument for why it does not apply to paedos talking about weird loli fetish, yet still applies to other subjects of discourse. There is an argument to be made, but you can't throw out the baby (freedom of speech) with the bathwater.

This "shit" didn't follow you anywhere you go, it is everywhere on the internet, people are resistant to infringement on freedom of speech for the precedent it sets.

My assumption is not that all peados are child molesters. My assumption is that the TvTropes userbase has a collection of idiots who try to justify pornographic and pedophile material on a website that their owner is trying to purport being "family friendly."

My point is that freedom of speech should only be applied to TvTropes if they in turn can treat the subject material with respect, something that they repeatedly have proven they cannot do. If you are a pedophile, I don't want to hear about it. And I especially don't want to hear your justifications. I don't know how many times I heard the "I'm a hebephile/ephebophile so it's really okay!" argument on their forum. That isn't something you should be talking about on a public website.

Google caught wind of Tvtropes problems beforehand. This is actually the second time that they've had to tell Fast Eddie to clean up his site. They are not the ones who are at fault here. The first time Google pulled ad revenue was in 2010, since Adsense prohibits adult content. Instead of cleaning the articles, Fast Eddie put up a wall around them with an age barrier. Google Adsense would not be applied to those pages, but articles not behind the curtain would be able to sustain them.

The second time started with their article on Tentacle Porn. Google had had enough of Eddie's lack of cleaning, and threatened to remove all ad revenue if they didn't clean up their act, regardless of whether an article was behind the curtain. Either clean the shit up, or find another ad service. This applied to the Rape Tropes.

But instead of actually cleaning the pages, they just rename them. Other people in this thread argued that Google forcing the page cuts doesn't make the problem go away, but the opposite is also true. Renaming the pages to appease google isn't going to make the problem go away. And that problem is the userbase for TvTropes in the first place. Google would never have had to put its foot down if the Tropers had been able to handle their articles with restraint or maturity, rather than turning them into indexes for their favorite porn.

So, no, this is not a personal vendetta against pedophiles by trying to shame them into silence. This is me calling out the editors and the idiots who let this happen through their own ignorance. They just couldn't shut up about their fetishes, they couldn't keep them out of the touchy articles, and now they are paying for it.

Are you saying there is NO mature way to talk about subjects like Tentacle Erotica???? What about this little website, you might have heard of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tentacle_erotica

Well... if they can. And Wikipedia is available in every school and library computer everywhere and is considered quite "family friendly". Have you seen the wikipedia pages for BDSM, lolicon, pornography and many other mature subjects. Hell THIS VERY SITE is able to talk about such subjects with what many have called "rape week" since Jim's latest jimquisition episode.

You keep going on about a "problem", what precisely is the problem with listing tropes from Porn or other titillating material? Are you saying you have NEVER watched any pornography in your life? Never read an erotic story? Isn't this part of the media we consume, part of our popular culture? Why so arbitrarily cut this out?

The problem is, why is TV Tropes trying to make money from an ad provider who is so opposed to any "adult content" that it won't allow what we are even DISCUSSING on this forum? Why doesn't the mods just keep doing what they did in 2010, and keep putting such content AdSense doesn't like behind age barriers.

"If you are a pedophile, I don't want to hear about it... ...That isn't something you should be talking about on a public website."

Why not? Why can't you be respectfully tolerant?

"freedom of speech should only be applied to TvTropes if they in turn can treat the subject material with respect"

By who's definition? By Ad Sense it is that there cannot be ANY at all discussion, no matter what respectful terms you use to describe it.

 

[Treblaine]

I'm saying the gaming hobby as a whole doesn't seem to be mature enough to handle rape without an unhealthy dose of misogynistic BS served alongside it.

They'll never learn how to talk about it maturely if they can't talk about it in a moderated place where they will learn what is and is not acceptable.

Why the fear of debate? Nothing like daylight to drive out the shadows of injustice, hate and ignorance. Talk about this, and learn.

 

[Davroth]

There's not much difference between the average Wikipedia contributor and TV Tropes user. Both are disgusting cesspools of human deviancy.

Anyway, glad they paddled back on that one. I don't approve of censorship, even if it's self censorship.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

It seems that The Mary Sue did some research, and they've updated their article.
http://www.themarysue.com/tv-tropes-restores-rape-tropes-but-disturbing-questions-remain/

And TvTropes has a thread to respond to their article.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13407352000A66320100&page=1

 

[tehweave]

There was one particular page that I quite enjoyed, mostly because it brings to light something that people never ever address: "Rape is okay when it's woman on man." It talked about how if a woman is raped in a movie by a man, said man will bite the bullet at the end. If a man is raped by a woman, we're in a wacky romantic comedy! (Wedding Crashers) Is that one gone too? I can't find it under the renamed ones.

 

[BobisOnlyBob]

There was one particular page that I quite enjoyed, mostly because it brings to light something that people never ever address: "Rape is okay when it's woman on man." It talked about how if a woman is raped in a movie by a man, said man will bite the bullet at the end. If a man is raped by a woman, we're in a wacky romantic comedy! (Wedding Crashers) Is that one gone too? I can't find it under the renamed ones.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoubleStandardAbuseFemaleOnMale