US 2024 Presidential Election

Phoenixmgs

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Harris winning and Trump winning are two entirely different things. Endorsing one simply does not have the same implications as endorsing the other. Lets be clear. If you have a platform and you have reach then its simply a moral and practical failing to endorse Trump.

Joe Rogan knew Trump did a coup, he knew he's shamelessly corrupt, he knows Trump's stances on Europe, he knows Trump mishandled the pandemic by choice rather than ineptitude, he knew Trump is at best on the farthest fringes of the far right.All in all Joe Rogan knew Trump is both incapable and unwilling to govern properly. If he took all that into account and still used his power to boost Trump then that simply reflects terribly on him, and part of the damage will indeed have to be on him. Doesn't have to be a particularly big part, but still. He shouldn't be allowed to distance himself from this.
Kamala chose not to go on Rogan's show.

The dems aren't shamelessly corrupt? Trump didn't mishandle the pandemic... Also Trump's appointments for NIH and FDA really couldn't be better. Trump is not on the farthest fringed of the far right... Get out of your echo chamber, talk to actual people, read actual polls on the issues.

Rogan never has claimed to be a Republican, most of his views on things are rather progressive. He's allowed to think the candidate you don't like is the better candidate if he wants and it's not immoral to think that or say that. He's also allowed to criticize that candidate as well if he wants.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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I guess none of these people are Nazis either since their arms aren't set to the perfect angle.

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Hades

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Kamala chose not to go on Rogan's show.
By all accounts a good move since with Rogan's loyalties he'd likely have try to entrap her. He was not going to be a neutral party given his coming endorsement.

Rogan never has claimed to be a Republican, most of his views on things are rather progressive. He's allowed to think the candidate you don't like is the better candidate if he wants and it's not immoral to think that or say that. He's also allowed to criticize that candidate as well if he wants.
You know Rogan being progressive on most issues just makes his endorsement all the more scummy. That means he walked out on most of his beliefs just to get the far right into power. A far right that is fundamentally opposed to any progressive issue he claims to have stood for. Also your second point would indeed be correct under normal circumstances. If it was Obama vs McCain/ Romney, Clinton vs Bush, Cameron vs Milliban, Rutte vs Samson, or Hollande vs Sarkozy then absolutely. People can support any candidate and their choice likely isn't immoral at all. But when the far right enters the picture this scenario simply changes. At that point its not about ''simple not liking candidates'' anymore. Because at that point it cannot be taken for granted anymore that both parties are acting in good faith. Instead it becomes a real risk that one party if they win will try to dismantle democracy and harm minorities.

Get out of your echo chamber, talk to actual people, read actual polls on the issues.
What would that accomplish? Hearing Trump voters say they really like the guy would change nothing about Trump's stances on the media, on minorities, on the courts. Political theory doesn't change based on polling or the amount of people getting duped. That's like saying ''Merkel isn't a Christian Democrat, just get out of your echo chamber and talk to her supporters''. Its nonsense.
 

Phoenixmgs

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By all accounts a good move since with Rogan's loyalties he'd likely have try to entrap her. He was not going to be a neutral party given his coming endorsement.



You know Rogan being progressive on most issues just makes his endorsement all the more scummy. That means he walked out on most of his beliefs just to get the far right into power. A far right that is fundamentally opposed to any progressive issue he claims to have stood for. Also your second point would indeed be correct under normal circumstances. If it was Obama vs McCain/ Romney, Clinton vs Bush, Cameron vs Milliban, Rutte vs Samson, or Hollande vs Sarkozy then absolutely. People can support any candidate and their choice likely isn't immoral at all. But when the far right enters the picture this scenario simply changes. At that point its not about ''simple not liking candidates'' anymore. Because at that point it cannot be taken for granted anymore that both parties are acting in good faith. Instead it becomes a real risk that one party if they win will try to dismantle democracy and harm minorities.



What would that accomplish? Hearing Trump voters say they really like the guy would change nothing about Trump's stances on the media, on minorities, on the courts. Political theory doesn't change based on polling or the amount of people getting duped. That's like saying ''Merkel isn't a Christian Democrat, just get out of your echo chamber and talk to her supporters''. Its nonsense.
Pretty much everyone says Kamala not going on Rogan was a mistake. I don't think she could actually coherently talk about issues that long.

Because Rogan know the dems aren't going to implement any of the progressive things he wants because they haven't before. Look at what the dems version of progressive policies have turned California into. Dems say they are for affordable housing, but they implement policy to make houses more expensive.

Trump is not the far right... The left is the one removing people from ballots, not the right. The whole narrative about the election being about saving democracy is a fucking joke. You act like the dems act in good faith, they don't. Biden set a pretty bad precedent with all the preemptive pardons when he said he wouldn't do that. If Trump did this, y'all would be fucking livid.

I said polls on the ISSUES, not on whether people like Trump or Kamala. Something is not far right if most of the population agrees with it.
 

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Something is not far right if most of the population agrees with it.
Uh....yes it is. Far right does not refer to a policy's popularity. If a far right demagogue says he'll put all migrant in camps to keep the nation's blood pure then that would be a far right policy goal even if this was met with roaring approval by the public. Just as how a politician running primarily on an environmental platform would inherently be a ''Green'' politician. How unpopular or popular those polices would be doesn't change any of that.

Because Rogan know the dems aren't going to implement any of the progressive things he wants because they haven't before.
And that means supporting parties that don't want any progressive policy and roll back all that's been achieved up til now? If Rogan is grumpy about Obamacare not being full fledged European style healthcare then....why exactly is the fanatically anti health care party the preferred alternative?

Trump is not the far right...
You keep saying that but its never been convincing. Compare Trump with any moderate right winger and he'll always remain much farther to the right, much more anti democracy and more openly racist. Compare him to the European far right and he still comes off further than the right. Trump isn't a milktoast centrist or a typical economically conservative, god fearing Republican. He simply isn't. Instead he's a demagogue who very knowingly exacerbates social and racial tension and who openly seeks to tear down any check on his personal power.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Look at what the dems version of progressive policies have turned California into.
The biggest economy in America and the 5th largest economy in the world?
One of the biggest cultural hubs in the world, with one of the biggest influences on culture worldwide?
One of the states with the largest amount of public land, open spaces, and wildlife nature preserves?
The state with the best public university system?
One of the states with the highest life expectancy at birth (fourth highest overall and the second highest for women)?
One of the states with the best public health (number 4)?
One of the states with the lowest suicide rates (number 5)?

Wow seems truly awful.
 
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tstorm823

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The biggest economy in America and the 5th largest economy in the world?
One of the biggest cultural hubs in the world, with one of the biggest influences on culture worldwide?
One of the states with the largest amount of public land, open spaces, and wildlife nature preserves?
The state with the best public university system?
One of the states with the highest life expectancy at birth (fourth highest overall and the second highest for women)?
One of the states with the best public health (number 4)?
One of the states with the lowest suicide rates (number 5)?

Wow seems truly awful.
No, Republicans did all that. California has only been blue for ~30 years, all of the systems you're bragging about were built under primarily Republican governance. Especially things like public land and nature preserves.

Democrats have only overseen the recent decay of all these things.
 

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Ok, so which is it? The answer is of course: being two-faced

Also, the UK doesn't need American help to crash its economy, it did a bang up job of that on its own, thank you very much.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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No, Republicans did all that. California has only been blue for ~30 years, all of the systems you're bragging about were built under primarily Republican governance. Especially things like public land and nature preserves.

Democrats have only overseen the recent decay of all these things.
The recent decay that is completely made up by Republicans.
Seriously, I live in California, you've never even set foot in the state.

The stats I listed are from last year. If there's as much "decay" as you claim then was California in first place for all these metrics 30 years ago?

Republicans are the ones trying to gut most of these things. Education and public healthcare? Constantly on the chopping block with Republican politicians. Public land? Republicans really want to privatize it so they can pump more oil and log more forests.

Republicans have a vested interest in the "California is failing" narrative because it's the antithesis of all of their policies. The problem is that California is mostly thriving.
 

tstorm823

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The recent decay that is completely made up by Republicans.
Seriously, I live in California, you've never even set foot in the state.
Sure I have. I was very annoyed by restaurants that didn't list prices, though I imagine that's not a statewide phenomenon, probably just San Francisco.
Republicans are the ones trying to gut most of these things. Education and public healthcare? Constantly on the chopping block with Republican politicians. Public land? Republicans really want to privatize it so they can pump more oil and log more forests.
The public land you know and love is a product of conservationism, a word not coincidentally similar to conservatism, it was pioneered by the Teddy Roosevelt or Gifford Pinchot type of Republican, who quite importantly did those projects for the benefit of the people. Lefty-environmentalists these days tend towards preservationist, they see humanity as a plague, and aim to protect nature from people, and crazy enough, the people suffer as a consequence. Education and healthcare follow the same pattern, people are seen as the problem to be solved, and the motive to actually benefit them disappears.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Sure I have. I was very annoyed by restaurants that didn't list prices, though I imagine that's not a statewide phenomenon, probably just San Francisco.
If you need to ask what it costs you can't afford it. /s

The public land you know and love is a product of conservationism, a word not coincidentally similar to conservatism, it was pioneered by the Teddy Roosevelt or Gifford Pinchot type of Republican, who quite importantly did those projects for the benefit of the people. Lefty-environmentalists these days tend towards preservationist, they see humanity as a plague, and aim to protect nature from people, and crazy enough, the people suffer as a consequence. Education and healthcare follow the same pattern, people are seen as the problem to be solved, and the motive to actually benefit them disappears.
The fact of the matter is that modern Democrats have drifted right enough that they're more like historical Republicans, and Republicans have drifted even further right into outright fascism.

And yes, Conservationism IS LITERALLY about protecting nature from people. It's protecting nature from the people who want to exploit it for capital gain and who see preserving nature as wasting resources that could otherwise be used to make money. Republicans want to take public land, make it private and then make people pay for its use. That's why California has 49% of its land as public land and places like Texas have less than 4%.
 

tstorm823

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The fact of the matter is that modern Democrats have drifted right enough that they're more like historical Republicans, and Republicans have drifted even further right into outright fascism.
In my lifetime, the Republican Party has basically remained the same while the Democrats veer heavily to the left, though both parties have had different factions and the Democrats were admittedly at their furthest right in my youth, but left or right isn't really the problem. The Democratic Party's failure isn't being too far left, it's that they lose sight of what is the end goal vs the means to get there. I mean, Republicans do that too, but the scale is incomparable.
And yes, Conservationism IS LITERALLY about protecting nature from people.
It really isn't. It's not from the people, it's for the people. State and federal parks are not some untouched wilderness, they are managed lands for the people. Those spaces aren't protected only from people, but from all sorts of ecological forces that would upset the status quo and rob future generations of what is currently there. And that is an important philosophical distinction.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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It really isn't. It's not from the people, it's for the people. State and federal parks are not some untouched wilderness, they are managed lands for the people. Those spaces aren't protected only from people, but from all sorts of ecological forces that would upset the status quo and rob future generations of what is currently there. And that is an important philosophical distinction.
It's not an important distinction when the Republican mantra is to extract as many resources from the planet to make as much money as possible as quickly as possible.
Modern Republicans are anti-environmentalism except in the cases where it directly affects their own back yard.

Conservationism is about preserving biodiversity and endangered species, which Republicans don't give a shit about. Protecting natural resources for the use of future generations, which Republicans would rather exploit for their own profit right now. It's about promoting sustainable land use, and sustainability has become a dirty word for Republicans. The point is to preserve nature from human impact.

Modern Republicans want to take public land, transfer it to the states, who won't be able to pay for its upkeep, and will sell it to private corporations so they can exploit it for money.
 
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tstorm823

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Conservationism is about preserving biodiversity and endangered species, which Republicans don't give a shit about.
It is not that, and this is what I mean. Biodiversity is a means to stable, durable ecosystems. If you act as though it is a goal worth pursuing in and of itself, you end up making questionable decisions overall.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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It is not that, and this is what I mean. Biodiversity is a means to stable, durable ecosystems. If you act as though it is a goal worth pursuing in and of itself, you end up making questionable decisions overall.
Utter horseshit.

We generally don't actually know what biodiversity can be removed from an ecosystem without destabilizing it.

For example, we have the capability to eradicate mosquitos. This could potentially save millions of lives. We've been debating doing this for decades, but we haven't. Scientists have done studies, and we don't think that mosquitos are a significant food source for any animal, and we don't think that killing them would significantly affect any ecosystem, but we don't know. And because we don't know we haven't done it because if we're wrong there's a potential to collapse entire ecosystems because we fucked with the food chain.

Of course we try to study these things, but funding these studies becomes political. The moment budgets are mentioned people complain that these studies are a waste of money because why the hell would we care about some snail, or some minor fish that we don't even eat, when it may turn out that these animals are a cornerstone of the food chain of their particular environment and we don't know.

So yes, all biodiversity is worth preserving because we don't actually know what makes a stable and durable ecosystem.
 

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It is not that, and this is what I mean. Biodiversity is a means to stable, durable ecosystems. If you act as though it is a goal worth pursuing in and of itself, you end up making questionable decisions overall.
If Republicans cared for the ecosystem or the environment, they would not conter every climate change policy they can find and push fossils at all possibilities. Republicans are just a danger to our planet. Not the only one though.
 

tstorm823

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So yes, all biodiversity is worth preserving because we don't actually know what makes a stable and durable ecosystem.
The important thing to note here is that we want a stable and durable ecosystem, and the reason why is for human prosperity. It always comes back to human prosperity. If ever it isn't, your movement is either dead or dangerous.
If Republicans cared for the ecosystem or the environment, they would not conter every climate change policy they can find and push fossils at all possibilities. Republicans are just a danger to our planet. Not the only one though.
Man-made climate change, so far as I can tell, is nothing short of divine providence. Without it, we would likely be facing the inevitable return of glaciers so large that the oceans recede. Alternatively, maybe the ice age was ending anyways, and we were heading towards an era of (relative to what we know) extreme heat. The idea that we can impact the global climate through human actions is an incredible blessing in the long term, and responsible climate policies coordinated across the globe will be necessary to pursue it. That being said, we need way more energy than we produce now to make any of that happen, and knee-capping human progress now in the name of preventing climate change is only going to hinder our ability to steward the climate in the future as we struggle to support ourselves instead of continuing to advance.