US 2024 Presidential Election

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,269
970
118
Country
USA
I don't know if there's a way to pardon part of a crime, or reduce a sentence? Hunter clearly did something illegal and should pay for that, but the punishment he got was way above what a normal citizen would have gotten for that crime, especially since he got a plea deal that was just cancelled for for political reason (crazy how quick justice moved in that case but slow walk the fuck out of attempting to overthrow an elected government).

By my understanding, the plea deal was tossed by the judge because it was for the gun charges but also said he wouldn't be charged for unrelated tax crimes, without even pleading guilty to either. That doesn't particularly sound like political persecution to me.
 

Schadrach

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 20, 2010
2,195
429
88
Country
US
I don't know if there's a way to pardon part of a crime, or reduce a sentence? Hunter clearly did something illegal and should pay for that, but the punishment he got was way above what a normal citizen would have gotten for that crime, especially since he got a plea deal that was just cancelled for for political reason (crazy how quick justice moved in that case but slow walk the fuck out of attempting to overthrow an elected government).
I mean, there are certainly ways more narrowly targeted than "any crime(s) this person may or may not have done over the last decade."
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
8,507
7,086
118
Country
United States
I mean, Trump's FBI pick is specifically calling out all the witch hunting they want to do. Blanket pardons are definitely safer in that case if you don't want to see the first 20 year federal speeding offence.
 

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,273
6,551
118
Unlikely that they will find anything. The German anti-vaxxer party throwing allegations around wildly is nothing new.
Attacking EU corruption is an easy ploy for nationalists - despite the fact that the EU is unlikely to be significantly more corrupt than their own home nation, and in many cases significantly less corrupt.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,855
3,560
118
Country
United States of America
But that's effectively your only offering as to why it is immoral to kill a person but acceptable to have an abortion. The only distinction you make is preference. Are you mocking your own perspective, or the idea of morality entirely?
no, there's a difference between mediating between preferences and assigning reasonable priorities to them (especially in cases when some of them don't even exist) and on the other hand defining a universal morality based on one person's preferences.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,269
970
118
Country
USA
no, there's a difference between mediating between preferences and assigning reasonable priorities to them (especially in cases when some of them don't even exist) and on the other hand defining a universal morality based on one person's preferences.
Question: can someone in your system prefer something wrong?
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,855
3,560
118
Country
United States of America
Question: can someone in your system prefer something wrong?
of course. trivially, even; one person might have a different (and incompatible) preference from another person whose preferences are clearly more relevant.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,269
970
118
Country
USA
of course. trivially, even; one person might have a different (and incompatible) preference from another person whose preferences are clearly more relevant.
Can the person with the "more relevant" preference be wrong?
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,855
3,560
118
Country
United States of America
Can the person with the "more relevant" preference be wrong?
That's not a question this framework asks or answers, as it is more meta-ethical. So it is far better at explaining why we even have morality (and notions of 'rights') in the first place-- to mediate between the preferences of persons (and any other entities) capable of communicating preference-- than prescribing any action in particular as "the morally correct action". But what we can say is that the one that is most deeply affected and actually has a preference is the one that should be empowered to decide. So indeed, exercising a right can be wrong. But that doesn't mean we should extinguish the right.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,269
970
118
Country
USA
That's not a question this framework asks or answers, as it is more meta-ethical. So it is far better at explaining why we even have morality (and notions of 'rights') in the first place-- to mediate between the preferences of persons (and any other entities) capable of communicating preference-- than prescribing any action in particular as "the morally correct action". But what we can say is that the one that is most deeply affected and actually has a preference is the one that should be empowered to decide. So indeed, exercising a right can be wrong. But that doesn't mean we should extinguish the right.
Then why reject the idea that some rules have intrinsic value? You can explain the existence of morality in this way ( though I obviously don't accept your view), while also endorsing certain guidelines we know to be expedient towards those ends. Thou shalt not kill will nearly always match your rationale, yet you dismiss the value in it.
 

Hades

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2013
2,329
1,779
118
Country
The Netherlands
Attacking EU corruption is an easy ploy for nationalists - despite the fact that the EU is unlikely to be significantly more corrupt than their own home nation, and in many cases significantly less corrupt.
In fact I'm sure Le Pen's core voters find it a boon that Le Pen has been defrauding them since the EU ''deserves it''.

I actually haven't really heard much stories of corruption in the EU. Wasteful spending to be sure but nothing outright criminal. Except that one time an Orban aligned EU politician did a crowded sex party during covid lockdown.
 

Satinavian

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 30, 2016
1,959
816
118
I actually haven't really heard much stories of corruption in the EU. Wasteful spending to be sure but nothing outright criminal. Except that one time an Orban aligned EU politician did a crowded sex party during covid lockdown.
That was the last one i have heard of :

 

Hades

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2013
2,329
1,779
118
Country
The Netherlands
Every European country is busy preparing for the upcoming American betrayal when Trump takes office. Macron has by far the most novel way of preparing for this situation. When Europe will be flanked by enemies to the west and the east his solution is....to engineer a political crisis that can see Putin's fangirl Le Pen get into power to undermine Europe from within. Or Melenchon instead who's only barely less pro Russian then she is.

Thanks Emanuel.
 

meiam

Elite Member
Dec 9, 2010
3,630
1,844
118
Every European country is busy preparing for the upcoming American betrayal when Trump takes office. Macron has by far the most novel way of preparing for this situation. When Europe will be flanked by enemies to the west and the east his solution is....to engineer a political crisis that can see Putin's fangirl Le Pen get into power to undermine Europe from within. Or Melenchon instead who's only barely less pro Russian then she is.

Thanks Emanuel.
I mean, what is he supposed to do? Declare martial law and abolish the chamber?
 

Hades

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2013
2,329
1,779
118
Country
The Netherlands
I mean, what is he supposed to do? Declare martial law and abolish the chamber?
Just work with parliament to get a bill that does pass, and not force the opposition to vote out his prime minister. And start fixing problems for the lower classes so Le Pen can't take advantage of their anger. Doing a deal with the left can achieve both goals easy peasy. I know Macron ran on ''professionalizing France'' but though luck. Keeping Le Pen out of power takes precedence, especially with her ties to France's enemies.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
12,258
6,461
118
Country
United Kingdom
I mean, what is he supposed to do? Declare martial law and abolish the chamber?
Well, the better (and more democratic) option would have been to appoint a Prime Minister from the bloc that performed the best in the most recent election: the NFP. But he didn't.

Or, to not present a budget with billions of dollars of service cuts, without the approval of parliament. While taxes on the ultra-wealthy remain so low, service cuts are always a political choice, not a necessity.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Jun 6, 2008
36,515
3,716
118
Just work with parliament to get a bill that does pass, and not force the opposition to vote out his prime minister. And start fixing problems for the lower classes so Le Pen can't take advantage of their anger. Doing a deal with the left can achieve both goals easy peasy. I know Macron ran on ''professionalizing France'' but though luck. Keeping Le Pen out of power takes precedence, especially with her ties to France's enemies.
There's a credible theory that Macron was willing to withhold support for NFP candidates in the snap election and let RN take the race wholesale, and it was Attal's mutiny that actually prevented the RN from gaining power completely. Macron now lives and breathes spite for the left, he is the textbook example of preferring to hand power to the far right before giving even a concession to the left.

In short lol, lmao
 
  • Like
Reactions: Seanchaidh

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,855
3,560
118
Country
United States of America
Then why reject the idea that some rules have intrinsic value? You can explain the existence of morality in this way ( though I obviously don't accept your view), while also endorsing certain guidelines we know to be expedient towards those ends. Thou shalt not kill will nearly always match your rationale, yet you dismiss the value in it.
It is nearly instead of always because of cases in which it conflicts with some very important rights of others. And in the specific case of abortion it is not at all clear why we should consider unwanted yet-to-be persons part of any kind of moral community. They aren't even indifferent.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,269
970
118
Country
USA
It is nearly instead of always because of cases in which it conflicts with some very important rights of others. And in the specific case of abortion it is not at all clear why we should consider unwanted yet-to-be persons part of any kind of moral community. They aren't even indifferent.
If it is "very important rights" that can override the obligation not to kill, that just means there are other rules in your moral view that are of higher priority. Circling back to the ideas of consequentialism and utilitarianism, it doesn't seem like yours (or almost anyone's) perspectives actually fall into those. You're basically just describing your own personal deontological system. Subjective qualifiers like "relevant" or "important" are just putting your moral hierarchy vaguely one step removed from outright saying "these are my commandments".

I do not believe there is a logical system guiding this stance on abortion, I think you take that as axiomatic truth and rationalize around it. For example, in any other situation, you would never consider "wanted" or "unwanted" as a rationale for why killing someone is justified. And I don't think you're taking a consequentialist perspective, as a person's desires in advance are not necessarily related to outcome at all. Uncountable numbers of people have had unplanned pregnancies lead to great joy (and the opposite, for what it's worth), and many people don't want to do things that are objectively good for them. The logic doesn't hold up, what you're saying only really fits together as a list of rules you happen to hold as valid, a list that happens to carve out the allowance of abortions, but which has no broader validity than the hypothetical person you describe imagining their moral view is universal.