USA health system... umm... what the hell?!

[cerebus23]

Wow, didn't know the Escapist Community was a bunch of liberals.

In case anyone hasn't heard, America is trillions and trillions of dollars in debt. If you have a universal free health care, the government is forced to pay the cost. Since the government's only true form of gaining money is taxation, you are putting the burden on the American taxpayer to pay for everyone's health care. On top of that, this country has so many people (illegal immigrants, for example) that don't pay taxes. This means that people would be leeching the system while making everyone else pay for it.

Not only that, but you take away the competitiveness of the private sector, the place where America started becoming so great. Why shouldn't the veteran doctor of 30 dollars be allowed to charge more for his services? If you don't want to pay, then go talk to the straight from college doctor ready to make his mark on the world. In the private sector, you get that for which you pay! You take that competitiveness away, there is NO INCENTIVE to do better at your job (the exact reasons why public unions in this country are such a damn travesty).

Someone on The Escapist needed surgery. Yes, it sucks, it really does. But as a hard working American who is trying to save enough money for his first house to start a family, why should my paychecks be slashed so that every Tom, Dick, and Nancy can get whatever they need? Work hard, get ahead; that's hardly a terrible concept.

I'll tell you why your paychecks should be slashed so that every Tom, Dick and Nancy get healthcare; because they are every bit as deserving of a healthy life as you. No, don't argue, I don't care if you cured cancer and Dick happens to be Hitler in disguise, they still deserve health-care. The government has a responsibility to keep it's people happy, but even if you don't agree with that, then at least recognize that it has a right to give it's people a decent quality of life.

Plus, illegal immigrants don't pay taxes, but it's also difficult to get health-care (and that's just in Britain, who knows what it could be like in immigration status checking crazy America.

Also considering England is able to support the NHS (even if Cameron wants to screw it over) in the same worldwide recession it cant be that large of a strain on the treasury. What he is really trying to say is that if you want to live you gotta pay up or you can go die. Maybe the Americans wouldn't be so much in debt if they didn't u'know start wars in countries such as Afghanistan and have no regulation on banks.

No regulation in banks? You do realize that our government since carter had mandated that banks give loans to poor people for houses, lifting that rate to 55% under bush 2 in the midst of a housing bubble brought down our banks. It was not greedy bankers, or predatory loaning, really what banker gives someone money loving the idea that they might default? None of them is the answer. Cause all that defaulting is what caused the collapse in the first place.

Our government regulating this stuff in the first place is what landed us in this mess.

 

[DVS Storm]

Also, I'm surprised you support a system where the "rich" can also take advantage of government aid when they in no way need it.

Because they pay the taxes too. Progressive tax system. Richer pay more taxes than poor. So how can we keep the rich people from moving elsewhere? By providing them with the healthcare that they too have paid for. Besides most rich people go to the private sector rather than Public secotr, because private is faster but state still pays some of the bill.

EDIT:

As true as it may be, the counter point is that here in the US you litterally can be put back together after getting hit by a car. we can reattach limbs, transplant organs, and even replace bad or broken body parts, and do this all with in a short period of time with a high degree of precision and success across the board.

there are Positives to the American health care system too.
just saying...

There of course are positives but Um.. did you know that here in Finland we have socialized healthcare system and we still have some of the best hospitals in the world? They are called "Yliopistolliset sairaalat" which roughly translated are University hospitals or something. My favorite example is the case of David Beckhamn(the soccer star). When he needed a leg surgery(I can't remember exactly what surgery it was but anyway), he came to Finland because we have one of the worlds best orthopedic surgeons. He didn't go to USA. So yes USA has really good hospitals but we can do it as well(or better) here too. And the universities are also free which is really cool.

 

[orangeban]

You know, reading all these complaints about how America couldn't have socialized health care 'cause it'd be too expensive and they'd have to, the horror, raise taxes, got me thinking. When it comes to very rich (and honest, not talking about crooks or shady bankers or whatever) people, there's roughly to views about them. Either you say, "They're very rich and so as a reward for being successful they shouldn't have to pay much tax." or you say, "They're are very rich, good for them, now lets see if we can try and get less fortunate people richer using their money." I'm in that second group (I'll come clean, I'm a communist). So I see raising taxes on the rich as only fair, they're rich, and others should be as well.

That right there is the sort of viewpoint needed to get socialized health care. (note; trickle-down economys don't work!)

 

[spacewalker]

On top of that, this country has so many people (illegal immigrants, for example) that don't pay taxes. This means that people would be leeching the system while making everyone else pay for it.

Or you could have a national insurance card or other form of citizenship identification. Then again, what do you do about all those illegals using your roads ...

You dont really Pay for a road. I mean, you pay taxes on it for the maintance, and occasionally a toll road, but to actually charge someone for using a road, that would mean that every connecting intersection would involve a toll post, and no country would do that.

coorporations also evade taxes, and lobby congress to keep tax loopholes open.

as for paying for roads. There is some sort of wireless device that can register how many times you have used certain roads. You dont need to slow down at all.

 

[Pyro Paul]

See, here in Australia, what with our evil communist government health system, we occasionally like to tell silly campfire horror stories about the state of health care in the US. Y'know, tales about that terrible place where you can get hit by a car and hospital staff will refuse to put you back together unless you throw wads of money or medical insurance forms at them. I never really knew what to think about these stories. And, quite frankly, I didn't particularly care because hey, why would I? That mess is an entire Pacific Ocean away. But this whole business with Extra Credits and the injury of the Pink Bean seems to suggest that those stories were disquieting close to the truth.

As true as it may be, the counter point is that here in the US you litterally can be put back together after getting hit by a car. we can reattach limbs, transplant organs, and even replace bad or broken body parts, and do this all with in a short period of time with a high degree of precision and success across the board.

there are Positives to the American health care system too.
just saying...

 

[Sansha]

In New Zealand, if you get hurt, they patch you up first and ask questions later. There's ONE insurance agency in the country that everyone MUST be signed up for, and 90% of the citizen population are. They pay out for almost anything.

If you can pay for it, great! You do. If you can't pay for it, the government-run insurance company will discuss it with you and usually pay it out. If they don't, the hospital sits you down and works out a payment plan for you.

Hospitals should be about getting people repaired, not about running a business. That's the problem with America - everything is a business. Capitalism has gone insane if you need to fork over thousands of dollars pulled out of your ass or the fucking Nether to NOT DIE.

And the paying doctors less idea - yeah, that's good in theory. The reality, however, is a doctor will take a job in another country that pays more.

But, for the most part, doctors do their job because they want to heal people. They don't NEED incentive to be good at it - they're not tradesmen or artists, they don't need to be paid huge money to do quality work, because in the field of medicine you're either an elite expert or in prison for killing someone. There's no middle ground.

 

[Rockchimp69]

I'm glad we have the NHS here in England, when I go into medicine I would hate being told to refuse people service so I'm glad I live here.

 

[KaizokuouHasu]

In Sweden:
"Hello, welcome! Come on in! what seems to be the problem? Oh? Nothing at all? Well, that's no problem at all. Come in anyway. It's nice in this hospital isn't it? It's your house as much as mine. You pay for it too, you know. Want some coffee?

Oh! Deary me! The old man looks like he is very ill. Help me get him into a sick-room and on a bed. There, there. Let's see what is wrong with you. Oh, my. We need a heart transplant and plastic surgery. We also need a blood transfusion and a new prosthetic arm and leg. Will you help me with these procedures? Thank you kindly. Let me ask; are you a doctor, or a surgeon, or a nurse at all? Oh! You're all of them? Thank heavens for that! Oh! You did all of the university courses just because? Well it is for free anyway. Let's start operating on this poor soul.

There, that wasn't so hard. What are you doing with the wallet? This isn't going to cost you a penny! There. Have a nice life and come back to us with 2 month intervals for free check-ups.

Isn't it a lovely day? Want another cup of coffee?"

Kind of. A bit exaggerated, but you get the idea. Free health care should be a given. That's why we should all pay taxes; to cover for our fellow men and women who fall ill and can't fend for themselves temporarily. What happened to solidarity?

Wow, my teacher said that Sweden is one of the best examples of socialism done right, and I guess he wasn't kidding. ARE YOU SERIOUS ABOUT UNIVERSITY BEING FREE!?!?!?! cause that is pretty awesome.

Last I checked we haven't changed the free education system, so, yes. It is free.

While it is true that we were once the shining pillar of how socialism is meant to be there have been hic-ups lately, and it is going downhill progressively, much to my dismay. Our conservative parties are trying to turn socialism into capitalism (which makes no sense, since our system wasn't harming them at all), and our labour parties (left-wings) are slowly wanting to be more like the good old U.S. of A.

I fear for the future of my homeland. <_<

 

[KaizokuouHasu]

I'm glad we have the NHS here in England, when I go into medicine I would hate being told to refuse people service so I'm glad I live here.

I love the NHS! They're paying my upcoming University course in full, plus I get a bursary! Becoming a Nurse or a Doctor in England really has its benefits! And not just long-term. XD

Sadly the feckers on the Tory side are trying their best to privatise EVERYTHING! Soon we'll be no better than America. ¬_¬

 

[Dastardly]

You don't read very many polls, do you?

I do. But I also know of a concept called "bias." This can include things like "sample bias," in which we find that, for the most part, the people who respond to a poll are likely people that already have a very strong opinion on that poll. Also, people (as a species) like to get pissed off. So they're more likely to respond on an issue they do not agree with.

So, while I read polls, I don't treat them in the same "blind faith" way you might believe religious people treat their various scriptures.

Oh, you can also use Google to search for various polls conducted by places like Rasmussen or Gallup to find out the various percentages. Some are indeed quite small, ~5%. Others are in the 20-40% range.

And in the statistical world, that's what we might call "wildly inconsistent results." There's a problem in just finding the highest number and saying, "Look! A poll said 40%!"

And then the religious population of the country is over 85%, so that really does make the population of people who are quite fond of bullshit beliefs (every religion has some) the overwhelming majority.

And there's that "bias" thing again. This one is just "confirmation bias," though. You've got an irrational hatred of religion itself, so (again) you pick the worst examples you can find and apply that model to everyone.

Also, I would like to say gay is hardly a choice. You can argue about minor details but at the end of the day you don't really choose to be a homosexual.

I didn't say "hardly." I said it wasn't a choice. However, I can see merit in the concept that it is not solely genetic, and that there are a multitude of psychological factors as well. It doesn't have to be 100% one, 0% the other. That's the "false dichotomy" we talked about (which is rooted in the same irrational thought processes that give rise to the "confirmation bias" also mentioned).

I did no such thing. I did not say everyone who thinks global warming is being overstated thinks it's a hoax. I merely rhetorically asked how many Americans "think [it's] a hoax?"

Context is everything. The reason you brought the "question" up was to prove the point that just soooo many people in this country are "completely idiotic." Since there are very few people who believe it to be "a hoax," that left me to think you were either "just making things up," or "grouping the midrange into the extreme." I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and opted away from "just making things up."

But I don't pretend the glaring flaws that we as a country have don't exist, nor do I try to dismiss them as being negligible as you are doing. I just felt like venting.

You're not being asked to "pretend they don't exist." It's just being suggested that you might want to stop pretending they do exist, at least in the way that you perceive them.

Think about those folks that talk about the "gay agenda," and how it's going to cause our society to collapse. They're irrational, aren't they? Even allowing that there may be some groups that really do have a clear agenda to push homosexual issues, are these groups the majority? Are they in any position to really impact national policy? Of course not.

These idiots are overstating a problem to create a boogeyman. And we laugh at them for it. Let's not then turn around and do the same thing.

 

[Rockchimp69]

I'm glad we have the NHS here in England, when I go into medicine I would hate being told to refuse people service so I'm glad I live here.

I love the NHS! They're paying my upcoming University course in full, plus I get a bursary! Becoming a Nurse or a Doctor in England really has its benefits! And not just long-term. XD

Sadly the feckers on the Tory side are trying their best to privatise EVERYTHING! Soon we'll be no better than America. ¬_¬

:/ private university as well..
I'm going to have so much fun paying off my 9000 x 6 quid debt.

You're lucky you have that scholarship, anyway I could apply for that? I'm currently going into year 12.

 

[WanderingFool]

Its rather pathetic to think that America would go to shit if we try a little socialism... sure as hell couldnt put us in any worse shape than we are now...

 

[HT_Black]

Well, it's very simple. It's not common knowledge, but it's the born truth: many years ago, America's founding fathers realized that a nation without a formalized class system that espoused freedom from religious discrimination and government oppression would, naturally, attract anyone and everyone who couldn't make the cut elsewhere. This meant that the sick, the stupid, and the otherwise unfit would clog up the country. Thus, a simple test was instated: by refusing to provide their citizens with complimentary health care, the USA would force their citizens to earn their right to live time and time again. In this way, they kept out the truly unfit. And the poor. And anyone who isn't filthy stinking rich. And anyone who is beleagured by life. Or who sustains massive injuries while working their blue-collar jobs.

In case you can't tell, that was sarcastic jackass talk for "The entire system is sorta fucked up for various reasons related to money". No, they won't turn you away at the door if you have no money (at least if they're not abortion doctors), but they *will* attempt to get by on the bare minimum, up to and including making you carry out your own complex medical procedures.

 

[SinisterGehe]

Yeah. The Finnish "no one gets left alone" system in which everyone can get the medicine they need and the treatments they need is bad and evil.

I would never go to live in America, I will not risk getting sick having to go to a hospital and the first thing they will ask me is can I afford to be cured. No sir.. I will stay in evil social-democratic hell in which people have something to lean on and are not trowh under the weather with a paper that says "tough luck".

American system the idealism of what is America is based on the idea of "every man for himself" and pure capitalism that is closing on something that could be called evil; "you can't afford to stay alive - well die then". The strongest only survive (or those with wealthy parents). The system is wicked but it is hardwired to the America's idealism about ideal America.

My brother had to go to a doctor in America once, he didn't even get an ibuprofein before the hospital called to Finland and confirmed that Finland will pay for my treatment, "300 dollars for 2 stitches and a band-aid with side-dish of 10 painkillers."

The whole idea of the system seems wicked to me, government that will not help average American tax-payer to be cured so he can go back to workforce and pay taxes. The system would work if the flaws would be ironed out.

If she would been Finnish, her elbow would been cured already, she would have gotten the physiotherapy, painkillers and benefits under 3-4 months (that is the minium que time to 2nd priority operation, set by the law) and it would have costed her total amount of 36,5 euros, of which 50% would be paid by government and rest can be request to be paid from insurance.

It saddens me to see a country that is digging it own grave and not realize it.

 

[JBGigas]

Good thing I live in Finland. (Almost) FREE HEALTHCARE AND EDUCATION FOR EVERYONE!!! WHOOO!

But in all seriousness, that thing in the U.S, damn! thats a pretty bad system you have there.

(If someone got upset by this.. Then, Sorry!)