Yeah, seems pretty crap.
Especially when they hate on the NHS.
Only us british can do that!
Besides it isn't that bad.
Especially when they hate on the NHS.
Only us british can do that!
Besides it isn't that bad.
USA health system... umm... what the hell?!
- Thread starter Zhukov
- Start date
Oooh, now this demonstrates the political gap between Britain and USA (not saying this person represents the USA or anything), but you see the Conservatives mentioned smokers not getting free treatment for lung cancer and similar stuff and there was OUTRAGE! People were furious, but in a country as right-wing as America you'd have to start off with something like that, you have to take baby-stepslacktheknack said:
My wife's cousin is finihsing up his MD this year. The Austrlian government paid for it and gave him a small (50k I believe) stipend a year. Tne end result of that is he has to work (for the normal wage) for the Australian government for 5 years. The net result of that is that it's very unlikely he will uproot his family and move, just to earn more money (Quite the opposite actually - they are looking at what hospital he's going to be asked to go to and then buying a house).Omey said:
This is a fair way to do things I think...
Oh god I am so tired of this arrogant, ignorant, small-minded American insistance that "socialized" health care doesn't work. Hello? Open your fucking eyes. The rest of developed world has had it (mostly) since the end of the Second World War. It has been proven beyond any possible doubt that it works.
"Oh then, why do X, Y, and Z people come over here to use OUR health care system?!" I hear you say. Well it's quite simple. You are talking about two different things. One is service, the other is access. Let me explain...
America is a vastly wealthy country. As a result, you have many highly qualified doctors and first rate hospitals. That's great. That means the service you give patients is some of the best in the world. The service that is. But the problem is that not everyone has access to that service, as they may be uninsured or unable to afford the bill. Even if they are insured, their provider may find a way not to cover them. And that's where socialized health care comes in. You can keep medicine, hospitals and staff all within the private sector, and simply provide a free public insurance option for those who cannot, or would struggle to, afford the treatment they need.
From fully state run hospitals and staff who are public sector workers (as in the UK), to simply providing a public insurance policy; there are so many way to go about this. Every country can find a way that works for its own system. The limited socialized health systems you already have are about the most cost inefficient in the world, which is where all that unjustified nonsense about it being "unafordable" comes from.
And to those who say "Why should I pay for someone elses medical bill?", well all I can say is - The idea that healthcare should be distributed according to wealth rather than need is, I think, a pretty sick one.
"Oh then, why do X, Y, and Z people come over here to use OUR health care system?!" I hear you say. Well it's quite simple. You are talking about two different things. One is service, the other is access. Let me explain...
America is a vastly wealthy country. As a result, you have many highly qualified doctors and first rate hospitals. That's great. That means the service you give patients is some of the best in the world. The service that is. But the problem is that not everyone has access to that service, as they may be uninsured or unable to afford the bill. Even if they are insured, their provider may find a way not to cover them. And that's where socialized health care comes in. You can keep medicine, hospitals and staff all within the private sector, and simply provide a free public insurance option for those who cannot, or would struggle to, afford the treatment they need.
From fully state run hospitals and staff who are public sector workers (as in the UK), to simply providing a public insurance policy; there are so many way to go about this. Every country can find a way that works for its own system. The limited socialized health systems you already have are about the most cost inefficient in the world, which is where all that unjustified nonsense about it being "unafordable" comes from.
And to those who say "Why should I pay for someone elses medical bill?", well all I can say is - The idea that healthcare should be distributed according to wealth rather than need is, I think, a pretty sick one.
Scrubiii said:
Yeah okay Mr. Paleoclimatalogist.
Only in the "lamestream MSM media". Not in the scientific community.
Im going to comment on your second part, not all of these points are necessarily rebuttalsReincarnatedFTP said:
1.
a lot of people think 9/11 was a conspiracy OUT SIDE OF THE US. there are more people out side the us that believe so than inside. however a lot of people do believe its a conspiracy here as well.
2. you got me there.
3. not that many, not any significant percentage above the rest of the world.
4. you got me here as well
5. yup. another one.
6. thats another prejudice media hype, Americans do not hold the majority in these superstitions, nor were they started in the US.
Now this is were you are completely wrong, under all the conservatism, stupid superstition and bible thumping, this is the one thing america ISN'T compared to the rest of the world. America is not Racist (again compared to almost every country accept Canada, and maybe Austrailia, but they've jumped right on board with a lot of things Britain has done that are Racist). Any one can come to america and be accepted as american, you may think that "oh well what about those anti Islamist who protest against Muslims coming to the US?" well lets see, this is the minority, vastly, and when you compare this to places in EUROPE, like, i don't know, France Italy Spain and Britain, you get wide spread popular opinion that not only are Muslims spreading "sharia law" and shouldn't be considered citizens, violence has been taken out on them, and any one who isn't defined as European in the nationalism of the individual country, is not considered a citizen by the vast majority of the people there. Here in the US the media, even the Conservative media, plus our culture and society looks down upon racism, all citizens in the US are seen as Americans, regardless of your accent skin color or religion.
your points that "How many think blacks are inferior, Jews are inferior, women are inferior, Hispanics are inferior? " are completely invalid and hold better in countries other than the US, for example, it is not socially acceptable in most places in the US to call or refer to Black people as a N*****, however in (and this is a first hand account) is not so uncommon to see catalogs refer to dark brown or black colors of furniture as N****** brown in Europe, or people refer to them as N******.
As for Hispanics, Spain holds top for hating them, and see them as fake inferior Spanish speakers (my work in Valincia, Madrid and in the cities proded out this one) I was taking an elevator on a tour inside the statue of Christopher Columbus that points supposedly back to the US, and when we got to the top, a child was looking through the window, this is when our guide blurted "stupid Mexicans.." and that's just one of about fifty accounts of racism just specifically against Hispanics in Spain.
Here in the US, we've had various civil rights movements for women as well, aside from the others, which have in bedded shame in our culture to those who mistreat women in american society, when Europe this societal rule is not necessarily the truth in a LOT of places, which is also a factor in the racism in Europe, there weren't really black or Asian or any type of civil-rights movements for race in Europe.
however, to end unfortunately, your two last statements are completely correct.
I'll tell you why your paychecks should be slashed so that every Tom, Dick and Nancy get healthcare; because they are every bit as deserving of a healthy life as you. No, don't argue, I don't care if you cured cancer and Dick happens to be Hitler in disguise, they still deserve health-care. The government has a responsibility to keep it's people happy, but even if you don't agree with that, then at least recognize that it has a right to give it's people a decent quality of life.dehboy said:
Plus, illegal immigrants don't pay taxes, but it's also difficult to get health-care (and that's just in Britain, who knows what it could be like in immigration status checking crazy America.
Edit: Also, you talk about a lack of incentive for doctors, first, doctors still get payed, and in Britain can still work for private hospitals.
Secondly, you know what country has a lot of very good doctors, so many that they are one of the chief "exports" of the country? Cuba. A communist state if you were not aware. By the very nature of communism there is no incentive, other than for the good of everyone, which is how it should be, I want my health decided by what's best for me, not how profitable I could be to the hospital.
I've actually been wondering the same thing. I live in Finland where we also have totally free public healthcare(of course we pay taxes to support the system, but really taxes in FInland are not that bad). It may sometimes take a while but you will get your surgery. And if you decide to go to the private sector to get the treatment faster(sometimes), then the state will pay some procent of the surgery. Of course the system is not perfect and there are some horror stories too and we have to fight with insurance companies occasionally, but mostly it works. From this standpoint, the American system seems to be just completely ridiculous.
Malpractice insurance costs an arm and a leg for doctors also. We are such a letigious society that any mistake even in case if minor ones can end up in court.
WHen medicare and medicade is involved the amount of paper work doctors have to do is staggering to get anything done approved or payed for. THey can spend more time filling out forms than actually seeing the patients. And lets not forget the massive amounts of fraud that go on year after year in those systems.
And then there are state run health programs, if you cannot afford major treatment the state will often cover lest part of the cost, but your limited in what medicines you can get and some super fancy procedures might not be covered.
We needed tort reform badly, we also need reforms in the work hours of medical people where some of them are on duty for 20 hours a day. You have anyone working longer than 10 12 hours mistakes happen nevermind mistakes where peoples lives are at stake.
Add to the fact that our congress did not even read the health care bill they signed into law nor was it allowed to be viewed by the public they rammed it through so fast,
We cannot afford this stuff period. We have massive debt, we have a dollar that is barely worth the paper it is printed on, we have medicare and social security going bankrupt to the tune of 4 trillion dollars to fix, we have many states in dire financial straights or totally bankrupt, and we are printing money at such a rate to cover our debts and spending inflation is inevitable, nevermind if we get hyperinflation.
We also have many in europe and middle east and asia that want to remove our dollar as the international currency, which they should. We drove our dollar into the ground with a ton of help from the "fed". We spent and spent like we could just make and print money until the end of time np.
Once we loose our international status then our government will not be able to print money to cover its spending, at which point we will not even be able to pay the interest in our national debt. Our federal government will collapse, and more importantly our entire economy and currency will be be destroyed.
So how do we pay for all this now and who pays for it in the future? We have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world, if not the highest. And we have open borders it not liek you can jack the tax rates up to 40 50 60% and not have corporations and people just leave the nation.
Add to the fact that you could tax everyone in the usa 100% and not pay off our spending and debt. Do we really need another trillion dollar health care bill now, you can argue that we need reform but there are many ways to reform things without taking them completely over, especially when our debt is so high and we are at "war".
England should be somewhat familiar with all this because you had international status and lost it. And i think the scale of our woes dwarfs what lost england its place at the head of the table.
WHen medicare and medicade is involved the amount of paper work doctors have to do is staggering to get anything done approved or payed for. THey can spend more time filling out forms than actually seeing the patients. And lets not forget the massive amounts of fraud that go on year after year in those systems.
And then there are state run health programs, if you cannot afford major treatment the state will often cover lest part of the cost, but your limited in what medicines you can get and some super fancy procedures might not be covered.
We needed tort reform badly, we also need reforms in the work hours of medical people where some of them are on duty for 20 hours a day. You have anyone working longer than 10 12 hours mistakes happen nevermind mistakes where peoples lives are at stake.
Add to the fact that our congress did not even read the health care bill they signed into law nor was it allowed to be viewed by the public they rammed it through so fast,
We cannot afford this stuff period. We have massive debt, we have a dollar that is barely worth the paper it is printed on, we have medicare and social security going bankrupt to the tune of 4 trillion dollars to fix, we have many states in dire financial straights or totally bankrupt, and we are printing money at such a rate to cover our debts and spending inflation is inevitable, nevermind if we get hyperinflation.
We also have many in europe and middle east and asia that want to remove our dollar as the international currency, which they should. We drove our dollar into the ground with a ton of help from the "fed". We spent and spent like we could just make and print money until the end of time np.
Once we loose our international status then our government will not be able to print money to cover its spending, at which point we will not even be able to pay the interest in our national debt. Our federal government will collapse, and more importantly our entire economy and currency will be be destroyed.
So how do we pay for all this now and who pays for it in the future? We have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world, if not the highest. And we have open borders it not liek you can jack the tax rates up to 40 50 60% and not have corporations and people just leave the nation.
Add to the fact that you could tax everyone in the usa 100% and not pay off our spending and debt. Do we really need another trillion dollar health care bill now, you can argue that we need reform but there are many ways to reform things without taking them completely over, especially when our debt is so high and we are at "war".
England should be somewhat familiar with all this because you had international status and lost it. And i think the scale of our woes dwarfs what lost england its place at the head of the table.
Did you know that in the 1950's the rich paid a 90% tax rate after 3 million and that we had better economic growth than we do today? The biggest reason for our debt is that the top 2 % of taxpayers have had their taxes cut so low that they're at one of lowest rates in modern history. Nobody is calling for middle class taxes to be raised, so you have nothing to fear.dehboy said:
If you, or someone in your family, has a medical problem and your insurance company decides to not pay out, than all your hard work was for nothing when you have to sell your house and go into bankruptcy. Wouldn't many more people be able to afford a house and raise a family if they didn't have to spend hundreds of dollars a month on health care insurance?
If the private sector didn't fail to provide a full employment economy and if it didn't fail to provide high enough wages so that people could afford private insurance, we wouldn't need the government involved.
There are some politicians here in the US that believe nothing should be socialised if it can be privatised by using what is known as the "google test" where if something gets so many different links on google for the same service, it doesn't need to be socialised.
I like to apply this tactic to said politician's name. According to their hypothesis, we don't need them either.
I like to apply this tactic to said politician's name. According to their hypothesis, we don't need them either.
I never once mentioned fox, bush or Obama. I also shared with you the fact that the girl in question is educated and does have a job and still could not afford her surgery. Nor did I ever use the word conservatism. Calling this man a conservative and this man a liberal only tells us who we are and aren't supposed to listen to. As for yourself, and only needing yourself, "no man is an island." Circumstances occur in life that are beyond our control and the scope of one man to handle alone, at least unscathed. May you continue to be so blessed as to never find the truth in that aphorism, but I hope that reason and your purported empathy will lead you to wisdom, in lieu of unkind experience.dehboy said:
Otherwise you would end up like us Canadians! THE HORROR!Woodsey said:
OT: I'm still facepalming over the defeat of Obama's healthcare bill. Not much changed. Universal healthcare isn't the ultimate evil you know...
From what im told by a friend whos looked into this, 60% of americas bankrupties and debt defaults stem from people being unable to afford medical bills. An NHS would jump tax by a few dollar a person per year and cut out this insane system of insurance companies stealing money for years and not bothering to pay out when its needed by the client. Fuck the US im not going anywhere near it. >.>