Otherwise you would end up like us Canadians! THE HORROR!Woodsey said:
OT: I'm still facepalming over the defeat of Obama's healthcare bill. Not much changed. Universal healthcare isn't the ultimate evil you know...
USA health system... umm... what the hell?!
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OT: I'm still facepalming over the defeat of Obama's healthcare bill. Not much changed. Universal healthcare isn't the ultimate evil you know...
From what im told by a friend whos looked into this, 60% of americas bankrupties and debt defaults stem from people being unable to afford medical bills. An NHS would jump tax by a few dollar a person per year and cut out this insane system of insurance companies stealing money for years and not bothering to pay out when its needed by the client. Fuck the US im not going anywhere near it. >.>
No regulation in banks? You do realize that our government since carter had mandated that banks give loans to poor people for houses, lifting that rate to 55% under bush 2 in the midst of a housing bubble brought down our banks. It was not greedy bankers, or predatory loaning, really what banker gives someone money loving the idea that they might default? None of them is the answer. Cause all that defaulting is what caused the collapse in the first place.plexxiss said:
Our government regulating this stuff in the first place is what landed us in this mess.
Because they pay the taxes too. Progressive tax system. Richer pay more taxes than poor. So how can we keep the rich people from moving elsewhere? By providing them with the healthcare that they too have paid for. Besides most rich people go to the private sector rather than Public secotr, because private is faster but state still pays some of the bill.Nieroshai said:
EDIT:
Pyro Paul said:
There of course are positives but Um.. did you know that here in Finland we have socialized healthcare system and we still have some of the best hospitals in the world? They are called "Yliopistolliset sairaalat" which roughly translated are University hospitals or something. My favorite example is the case of David Beckhamn(the soccer star). When he needed a leg surgery(I can't remember exactly what surgery it was but anyway), he came to Finland because we have one of the worlds best orthopedic surgeons. He didn't go to USA. So yes USA has really good hospitals but we can do it as well(or better) here too. And the universities are also free which is really cool.
You know, reading all these complaints about how America couldn't have socialized health care 'cause it'd be too expensive and they'd have to, the horror, raise taxes, got me thinking. When it comes to very rich (and honest, not talking about crooks or shady bankers or whatever) people, there's roughly to views about them. Either you say, "They're very rich and so as a reward for being successful they shouldn't have to pay much tax." or you say, "They're are very rich, good for them, now lets see if we can try and get less fortunate people richer using their money." I'm in that second group (I'll come clean, I'm a communist). So I see raising taxes on the rich as only fair, they're rich, and others should be as well.
That right there is the sort of viewpoint needed to get socialized health care. (note; trickle-down economys don't work!)
That right there is the sort of viewpoint needed to get socialized health care. (note; trickle-down economys don't work!)
coorporations also evade taxes, and lobby congress to keep tax loopholes open.emeraldrafael said:
as for paying for roads. There is some sort of wireless device that can register how many times you have used certain roads. You dont need to slow down at all.
As true as it may be, the counter point is that here in the US you litterally can be put back together after getting hit by a car. we can reattach limbs, transplant organs, and even replace bad or broken body parts, and do this all with in a short period of time with a high degree of precision and success across the board.Zhukov said:
there are Positives to the American health care system too.
just saying...
In New Zealand, if you get hurt, they patch you up first and ask questions later. There's ONE insurance agency in the country that everyone MUST be signed up for, and 90% of the citizen population are. They pay out for almost anything.
If you can pay for it, great! You do. If you can't pay for it, the government-run insurance company will discuss it with you and usually pay it out. If they don't, the hospital sits you down and works out a payment plan for you.
Hospitals should be about getting people repaired, not about running a business. That's the problem with America - everything is a business. Capitalism has gone insane if you need to fork over thousands of dollars pulled out of your ass or the fucking Nether to NOT DIE.
And the paying doctors less idea - yeah, that's good in theory. The reality, however, is a doctor will take a job in another country that pays more.
But, for the most part, doctors do their job because they want to heal people. They don't NEED incentive to be good at it - they're not tradesmen or artists, they don't need to be paid huge money to do quality work, because in the field of medicine you're either an elite expert or in prison for killing someone. There's no middle ground.
If you can pay for it, great! You do. If you can't pay for it, the government-run insurance company will discuss it with you and usually pay it out. If they don't, the hospital sits you down and works out a payment plan for you.
Hospitals should be about getting people repaired, not about running a business. That's the problem with America - everything is a business. Capitalism has gone insane if you need to fork over thousands of dollars pulled out of your ass or the fucking Nether to NOT DIE.
And the paying doctors less idea - yeah, that's good in theory. The reality, however, is a doctor will take a job in another country that pays more.
But, for the most part, doctors do their job because they want to heal people. They don't NEED incentive to be good at it - they're not tradesmen or artists, they don't need to be paid huge money to do quality work, because in the field of medicine you're either an elite expert or in prison for killing someone. There's no middle ground.
I'm glad we have the NHS here in England, when I go into medicine I would hate being told to refuse people service so I'm glad I live here.
Last I checked we haven't changed the free education system, so, yes. It is free.JustJuust said:
While it is true that we were once the shining pillar of how socialism is meant to be there have been hic-ups lately, and it is going downhill progressively, much to my dismay. Our conservative parties are trying to turn socialism into capitalism (which makes no sense, since our system wasn't harming them at all), and our labour parties (left-wings) are slowly wanting to be more like the good old U.S. of A.
I fear for the future of my homeland. <_<
I love the NHS! They're paying my upcoming University course in full, plus I get a bursary! Becoming a Nurse or a Doctor in England really has its benefits! And not just long-term. XDRockchimp69 said:
Sadly the feckers on the Tory side are trying their best to privatise EVERYTHING! Soon we'll be no better than America. ¬_¬
I do. But I also know of a concept called "bias." This can include things like "sample bias," in which we find that, for the most part, the people who respond to a poll are likely people that already have a very strong opinion on that poll. Also, people (as a species) like to get pissed off. So they're more likely to respond on an issue they do not agree with.ReincarnatedFTP said:
So, while I read polls, I don't treat them in the same "blind faith" way you might believe religious people treat their various scriptures.
And in the statistical world, that's what we might call "wildly inconsistent results." There's a problem in just finding the highest number and saying, "Look! A poll said 40%!"
And there's that "bias" thing again. This one is just "confirmation bias," though. You've got an irrational hatred of religion itself, so (again) you pick the worst examples you can find and apply that model to everyone.
I didn't say "hardly." I said it wasn't a choice. However, I can see merit in the concept that it is not solely genetic, and that there are a multitude of psychological factors as well. It doesn't have to be 100% one, 0% the other. That's the "false dichotomy" we talked about (which is rooted in the same irrational thought processes that give rise to the "confirmation bias" also mentioned).
Context is everything. The reason you brought the "question" up was to prove the point that just soooo many people in this country are "completely idiotic." Since there are very few people who believe it to be "a hoax," that left me to think you were either "just making things up," or "grouping the midrange into the extreme." I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and opted away from "just making things up."
You're not being asked to "pretend they don't exist." It's just being suggested that you might want to stop pretending they do exist, at least in the way that you perceive them.
Think about those folks that talk about the "gay agenda," and how it's going to cause our society to collapse. They're irrational, aren't they? Even allowing that there may be some groups that really do have a clear agenda to push homosexual issues, are these groups the majority? Are they in any position to really impact national policy? Of course not.
These idiots are overstating a problem to create a boogeyman. And we laugh at them for it. Let's not then turn around and do the same thing.
:/ private university as well..KaizokuouHasu said:
I'm going to have so much fun paying off my 9000 x 6 quid debt.
You're lucky you have that scholarship, anyway I could apply for that? I'm currently going into year 12.
Its rather pathetic to think that America would go to shit if we try a little socialism... sure as hell couldnt put us in any worse shape than we are now...
Well, it's very simple. It's not common knowledge, but it's the born truth: many years ago, America's founding fathers realized that a nation without a formalized class system that espoused freedom from religious discrimination and government oppression would, naturally, attract anyone and everyone who couldn't make the cut elsewhere. This meant that the sick, the stupid, and the otherwise unfit would clog up the country. Thus, a simple test was instated: by refusing to provide their citizens with complimentary health care, the USA would force their citizens to earn their right to live time and time again. In this way, they kept out the truly unfit. And the poor. And anyone who isn't filthy stinking rich. And anyone who is beleagured by life. Or who sustains massive injuries while working their blue-collar jobs.
In case you can't tell, that was sarcastic jackass talk for "The entire system is sorta fucked up for various reasons related to money". No, they won't turn you away at the door if you have no money (at least if they're not abortion doctors), but they *will* attempt to get by on the bare minimum, up to and including making you carry out your own complex medical procedures.
In case you can't tell, that was sarcastic jackass talk for "The entire system is sorta fucked up for various reasons related to money". No, they won't turn you away at the door if you have no money (at least if they're not abortion doctors), but they *will* attempt to get by on the bare minimum, up to and including making you carry out your own complex medical procedures.
Yeah. The Finnish "no one gets left alone" system in which everyone can get the medicine they need and the treatments they need is bad and evil.
I would never go to live in America, I will not risk getting sick having to go to a hospital and the first thing they will ask me is can I afford to be cured. No sir.. I will stay in evil social-democratic hell in which people have something to lean on and are not trowh under the weather with a paper that says "tough luck".
American system the idealism of what is America is based on the idea of "every man for himself" and pure capitalism that is closing on something that could be called evil; "you can't afford to stay alive - well die then". The strongest only survive (or those with wealthy parents). The system is wicked but it is hardwired to the America's idealism about ideal America.
My brother had to go to a doctor in America once, he didn't even get an ibuprofein before the hospital called to Finland and confirmed that Finland will pay for my treatment, "300 dollars for 2 stitches and a band-aid with side-dish of 10 painkillers."
The whole idea of the system seems wicked to me, government that will not help average American tax-payer to be cured so he can go back to workforce and pay taxes. The system would work if the flaws would be ironed out.
If she would been Finnish, her elbow would been cured already, she would have gotten the physiotherapy, painkillers and benefits under 3-4 months (that is the minium que time to 2nd priority operation, set by the law) and it would have costed her total amount of 36,5 euros, of which 50% would be paid by government and rest can be request to be paid from insurance.
It saddens me to see a country that is digging it own grave and not realize it.
I would never go to live in America, I will not risk getting sick having to go to a hospital and the first thing they will ask me is can I afford to be cured. No sir.. I will stay in evil social-democratic hell in which people have something to lean on and are not trowh under the weather with a paper that says "tough luck".
American system the idealism of what is America is based on the idea of "every man for himself" and pure capitalism that is closing on something that could be called evil; "you can't afford to stay alive - well die then". The strongest only survive (or those with wealthy parents). The system is wicked but it is hardwired to the America's idealism about ideal America.
My brother had to go to a doctor in America once, he didn't even get an ibuprofein before the hospital called to Finland and confirmed that Finland will pay for my treatment, "300 dollars for 2 stitches and a band-aid with side-dish of 10 painkillers."
The whole idea of the system seems wicked to me, government that will not help average American tax-payer to be cured so he can go back to workforce and pay taxes. The system would work if the flaws would be ironed out.
If she would been Finnish, her elbow would been cured already, she would have gotten the physiotherapy, painkillers and benefits under 3-4 months (that is the minium que time to 2nd priority operation, set by the law) and it would have costed her total amount of 36,5 euros, of which 50% would be paid by government and rest can be request to be paid from insurance.
It saddens me to see a country that is digging it own grave and not realize it.
You're making the mistake of thinking that all loans are equal. They're not. Telling banks to give poorer people loans is not what led to all of this. It's the type of loan that was given that caused it.cerebus23 said:
The problem is the type of loan that's at the heart of it is basically "you pay very little for the first two years, and then your rates go way up." This was because of the housing bubble - prices were going so high up that everyone figured it wouldn't be an issue. Their house would be worth more and they'd be able to afford the higher rate. Except it all came crashing down because it's called a bubble for a reason.
Now, it wasn't government regulation that led to banks creating and giving out this type of loan. It wasn't them being forced to give loans to poorer people. It was the banks themselves that created this and chose to give it out en masse. Not just to poor people, but to everyone that came in looking to get a home loan. There are internal memos and corporate e-mails from people saying that they know it's a bad idea and that it's not going to last, but that the sheer numbers make it a very profitable situation and thus they wanted to pursue it.
What part of government regulation is to blame for that? None. None at all. If the loans were just given to poorer people, or if they were the same type of loan given out before the housing bubble, your argument would have some merit. They could have given the same type of loan that they had been giving out before the bubble but they chose not to. They knew that it was a poor decision and they chose to pursue it. No government agency forced them to, and for that I am far more prone to blame the bankers than I am any government regulation.
Yeah, anyone can apply for the bursary. The only requirement is that it is to an NHS funded course. Simples.Rockchimp69 said:
