USA health system... umm... what the hell?!

[ReincarnatedFTP]

Okay, I'll admit completely idiotic is hyperbole.

I just think you're assigning each of your complaints way more weight than they actually hold in the real world. You're also painting each group with a pretty broad and unfavorable brush--for instance, not everyone who thinks that global warming is being overstated thinks that it's a "hoax," or not everyone who believes in a supernatural Creation is "fundamentally religious."

You're reaching into a very small group, picking out the absolute worst example you can find, and claiming that represents the entire group. And then you're acting as though that small group makes up a major share of our population here. Neither of those is intellectually honest. That's all I'm getting at.

Yeah, it makes us seem cosmopolitan to be self-hating Americans. It's the cool new thing to be political hipsters, hating whatever is in the spotlight at any given moment. Luxembourg was so cool before everyone knew where it was, and all that. And hey, you're entitled to your opinion, obviously... but maybe dial it back a bit?

I did no such thing. I did not say everyone who thinks global warming is being overstated thinks it's a hoax. I merely rhetorically asked how many Americans "think [it's] a hoax?"


I'm very proud to be a US citizen, just not in terms of USA #1 and once again, I was hyperbolic, thank you very much. Our country has strengths that most of the rest of the world does not, and we've accomplished so much cool stuff in our relatively short history as a country. But I don't pretend the glaring flaws that we as a country have don't exist, nor do I try to dismiss them as being negligible as you are doing. I just felt like venting.

 

[Da Orky Man]

Wow, didn't know the Escapist Community was a bunch of liberals.

In case anyone hasn't heard, America is trillions and trillions of dollars in debt. If you have a universal free health care, the government is forced to pay the cost. Since the government's only true form of gaining money is taxation, you are putting the burden on the American taxpayer to pay for everyone's health care. On top of that, this country has so many people (illegal immigrants, for example) that don't pay taxes. This means that people would be leeching the system while making everyone else pay for it.

Not only that, but you take away the competitiveness of the private sector, the place where America started becoming so great. Why shouldn't the veteran doctor of 30 dollars be allowed to charge more for his services? If you don't want to pay, then go talk to the straight from college doctor ready to make his mark on the world. In the private sector, you get that for which you pay! You take that competitiveness away, there is NO INCENTIVE to do better at your job (the exact reasons why public unions in this country are such a damn travesty).

Someone on The Escapist needed surgery. Yes, it sucks, it really does. But as a hard working American who is trying to save enough money for his first house to start a family, why should my paychecks be slashed so that every Tom, Dick, and Nancy can get whatever they need? Work hard, get ahead; that's hardly a terrible concept.

Yes. American's may have to pay somewhere even CLOSE to where the rest of the world pay taxes. America has the lowest tax rate of every developed country in the world. Man up a bit, and pay your share. What happened to banding together?

 

[Scrubiii]

I sign of hope? Don't make me laugh. I'm all for fiscal responsibility. Everyone made a stink when Bush ran America into debt (and rightly so). How come when Obama's "change" cost America WAAAAAY more than Bush, no one cares?

It is rather funny that all liberals think that any point of conservatism must have come from the brain washing company called "Fox." I care about the next person as much as everyone else, but I work hard to provide to myself. Are you too lazy to provide for yourself?

There is a difference between being "too lazy to provide for yourself" and having a spare $20,000 lying around.

 

[Da Orky Man]

You know, despite the horror stories you hear, a hospital cannot refuse treatment of an emergency on basis of payment, and if you cannot pay up front they will give you options to pay later or waive your bill if you can prove your emergency bill is unpayable. That being said, I'd rather be handed a bill today than wait six months in line at bare minimum for a hip replacement. Also, I'm surprised you support a system where the "rich" can also take advantage of government aid when they in no way need it.

Hey, I was diagnosed with severe scoliosis last year. I got the £150,000 surgery to fix it within a month on the NHS. The supposed 6-month waiting list almost never reveals itself.

 

[Ghengis John]

Yeah, as an American I think this is fucking bullshit, working in a hospital shouldn't be only about making money (I understand that people need to make money though), it should be about helping people who need it.

Yep, but dont forget that those people studied/trained/learned 15-20 years to do that. They deserve bigger compensation in wages, then uncle bob who never went to college and fixes refrigerators.

They get better compensation than uncle bob. The guy they don't get better pay than is the guy with a 2 year business degree who oversees a wing of the hospital.

 

[Sizzle Montyjing]

Yeah, seems pretty crap.
Especially when they hate on the NHS.
Only us british can do that!
Besides it isn't that bad.

 

[TheTim]

I've never had any problems with the current state of our healthcare, but i also wouldn't mind if it was socialized..... as long as my taxes aren't raised any more.

 

[orangeban]

Because Americans don't want to pay for system abusers, and are willing to let people die horrible deaths in their homes or live with crippling injuries for the rest of their lives as long as they aren't paying for that smoker's treatments.

Simple and easily enforced caveats are ignored (ie: no public healthcare for you if you smoke).

http://www.google.com/recaptcha/api/image?c=03AHJ_VuugedubM4OYKGcTajAAtLwCfelx9Hoy9UXFk7zhL2sef2k0iGedzRI390AT4pZuChwcqFZUrGVVyrAH3UBy5_xeOen62_fojT85ItPieU28tbpmwV74TbK-wOjiFiIOL_8cCMnHDJhXukyBnQqX-NeCvbEQaw

Oooh, now this demonstrates the political gap between Britain and USA (not saying this person represents the USA or anything), but you see the Conservatives mentioned smokers not getting free treatment for lung cancer and similar stuff and there was OUTRAGE! People were furious, but in a country as right-wing as America you'd have to start off with something like that, you have to take baby-steps

 

[Jake Martinez]

if medical college got cheaper ,dont you think it will change doctors' attitudes a bit when it comes to charging people??
If education were cheaper you could hope that doctors aren't as big scumbags when it comes to taking your money.

In India,where I'm from doctors have to complete practice for 2 years in rural areas where they treat poor people who cant afford urban quality treatments.
How difficult will be to implement something like that in your country?Is it already there?
Compulsory social service before your degree?
Seems like a good idea to me

My wife's cousin is finihsing up his MD this year. The Austrlian government paid for it and gave him a small (50k I believe) stipend a year. Tne end result of that is he has to work (for the normal wage) for the Australian government for 5 years. The net result of that is that it's very unlikely he will uproot his family and move, just to earn more money (Quite the opposite actually - they are looking at what hospital he's going to be asked to go to and then buying a house).

This is a fair way to do things I think...

 

[nomis101uk]

Oh god I am so tired of this arrogant, ignorant, small-minded American insistance that "socialized" health care doesn't work. Hello? Open your fucking eyes. The rest of developed world has had it (mostly) since the end of the Second World War. It has been proven beyond any possible doubt that it works.

"Oh then, why do X, Y, and Z people come over here to use OUR health care system?!" I hear you say. Well it's quite simple. You are talking about two different things. One is service, the other is access. Let me explain...

America is a vastly wealthy country. As a result, you have many highly qualified doctors and first rate hospitals. That's great. That means the service you give patients is some of the best in the world. The service that is. But the problem is that not everyone has access to that service, as they may be uninsured or unable to afford the bill. Even if they are insured, their provider may find a way not to cover them. And that's where socialized health care comes in. You can keep medicine, hospitals and staff all within the private sector, and simply provide a free public insurance option for those who cannot, or would struggle to, afford the treatment they need.

From fully state run hospitals and staff who are public sector workers (as in the UK), to simply providing a public insurance policy; there are so many way to go about this. Every country can find a way that works for its own system. The limited socialized health systems you already have are about the most cost inefficient in the world, which is where all that unjustified nonsense about it being "unafordable" comes from.

And to those who say "Why should I pay for someone elses medical bill?", well all I can say is - The idea that healthcare should be distributed according to wealth rather than need is, I think, a pretty sick one.

 

[ReincarnatedFTP]

How many think global warming is a hoax?

There is actually extremely strong evidence that Global Warming, (or at least global warming as a result of human actions), is completely false.

Yeah okay Mr. Paleoclimatalogist.

Only in the "lamestream MSM media". Not in the scientific community.

 

[Plazmatic]

American here.
It pisses me right the fuck off.
America is not even really too much of a first world nation.
I'll be proud of America gay marriage is legalized, the war on drugs is ended or severely curtailed, we're not in everybody's overseas engagements, Christianity (or any religion for that matter) isn't enforcing moral laws or playing a big part in politics such as abortion or countering teaching fucking science (evolution,global warming) in school, morons aren't voting based on "hurr muslims commies immigrants jesus" , labor is treated better and not like serfs, the fourth amendment gets some respect, and we have single payer healthcare or some form of UHC. Our culture is filled with "violence good sex drugs bad".

Also,
How many Americans think 9/11 was a government conspiracy?
How many Americans think vaccines cause autism?
How many Americans think the moon landing was a hoax?
How many think global warming is a hoax?
How many think gay is a choice?
How many believe Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster, and alien abductions are real?
How many think blacks are inferior, Jews are inferior, women are inferior, Hispanics are inferior?
How many are fundamentally religious?
How many think "evolution is just a theory" is a valid criticism?

This country is completely idiotic.

Im going to comment on your second part, not all of these points are necessarily rebuttals

1.
a lot of people think 9/11 was a conspiracy OUT SIDE OF THE US. there are more people out side the us that believe so than inside. however a lot of people do believe its a conspiracy here as well.

2. you got me there.

3. not that many, not any significant percentage above the rest of the world.

4. you got me here as well

5. yup. another one.

6. thats another prejudice media hype, Americans do not hold the majority in these superstitions, nor were they started in the US.

Now this is were you are completely wrong, under all the conservatism, stupid superstition and bible thumping, this is the one thing america ISN'T compared to the rest of the world. America is not Racist (again compared to almost every country accept Canada, and maybe Austrailia, but they've jumped right on board with a lot of things Britain has done that are Racist). Any one can come to america and be accepted as american, you may think that "oh well what about those anti Islamist who protest against Muslims coming to the US?" well lets see, this is the minority, vastly, and when you compare this to places in EUROPE, like, i don't know, France Italy Spain and Britain, you get wide spread popular opinion that not only are Muslims spreading "sharia law" and shouldn't be considered citizens, violence has been taken out on them, and any one who isn't defined as European in the nationalism of the individual country, is not considered a citizen by the vast majority of the people there. Here in the US the media, even the Conservative media, plus our culture and society looks down upon racism, all citizens in the US are seen as Americans, regardless of your accent skin color or religion.

your points that "How many think blacks are inferior, Jews are inferior, women are inferior, Hispanics are inferior? " are completely invalid and hold better in countries other than the US, for example, it is not socially acceptable in most places in the US to call or refer to Black people as a N*****, however in (and this is a first hand account) is not so uncommon to see catalogs refer to dark brown or black colors of furniture as N****** brown in Europe, or people refer to them as N******.

As for Hispanics, Spain holds top for hating them, and see them as fake inferior Spanish speakers (my work in Valincia, Madrid and in the cities proded out this one) I was taking an elevator on a tour inside the statue of Christopher Columbus that points supposedly back to the US, and when we got to the top, a child was looking through the window, this is when our guide blurted "stupid Mexicans.." and that's just one of about fifty accounts of racism just specifically against Hispanics in Spain.

Here in the US, we've had various civil rights movements for women as well, aside from the others, which have in bedded shame in our culture to those who mistreat women in american society, when Europe this societal rule is not necessarily the truth in a LOT of places, which is also a factor in the racism in Europe, there weren't really black or Asian or any type of civil-rights movements for race in Europe.

however, to end unfortunately, your two last statements are completely correct.

 

[orangeban]

Wow, didn't know the Escapist Community was a bunch of liberals.

In case anyone hasn't heard, America is trillions and trillions of dollars in debt. If you have a universal free health care, the government is forced to pay the cost. Since the government's only true form of gaining money is taxation, you are putting the burden on the American taxpayer to pay for everyone's health care. On top of that, this country has so many people (illegal immigrants, for example) that don't pay taxes. This means that people would be leeching the system while making everyone else pay for it.

Not only that, but you take away the competitiveness of the private sector, the place where America started becoming so great. Why shouldn't the veteran doctor of 30 dollars be allowed to charge more for his services? If you don't want to pay, then go talk to the straight from college doctor ready to make his mark on the world. In the private sector, you get that for which you pay! You take that competitiveness away, there is NO INCENTIVE to do better at your job (the exact reasons why public unions in this country are such a damn travesty).

Someone on The Escapist needed surgery. Yes, it sucks, it really does. But as a hard working American who is trying to save enough money for his first house to start a family, why should my paychecks be slashed so that every Tom, Dick, and Nancy can get whatever they need? Work hard, get ahead; that's hardly a terrible concept.

I'll tell you why your paychecks should be slashed so that every Tom, Dick and Nancy get healthcare; because they are every bit as deserving of a healthy life as you. No, don't argue, I don't care if you cured cancer and Dick happens to be Hitler in disguise, they still deserve health-care. The government has a responsibility to keep it's people happy, but even if you don't agree with that, then at least recognize that it has a right to give it's people a decent quality of life.

Plus, illegal immigrants don't pay taxes, but it's also difficult to get health-care (and that's just in Britain, who knows what it could be like in immigration status checking crazy America.

Edit: Also, you talk about a lack of incentive for doctors, first, doctors still get payed, and in Britain can still work for private hospitals.
Secondly, you know what country has a lot of very good doctors, so many that they are one of the chief "exports" of the country? Cuba. A communist state if you were not aware. By the very nature of communism there is no incentive, other than for the good of everyone, which is how it should be, I want my health decided by what's best for me, not how profitable I could be to the hospital.

 

[icaritos]

Perhaps there are ways we can reduce the cost. Maybe pay Doctors less and Teachers more. That would be a smart thing to do. Doctors are paid ridiculous amounts of money and I can assure you most of that money goes to them.

Just don't go into socialized medicine because that is even worse.

Canada, UK, Australia, Denmark, Switzerland. Please clarify how "going into socialized medicine" is much worse than the shitty conditions the US has now.

 

[DVS Storm]

I've actually been wondering the same thing. I live in Finland where we also have totally free public healthcare(of course we pay taxes to support the system, but really taxes in FInland are not that bad). It may sometimes take a while but you will get your surgery. And if you decide to go to the private sector to get the treatment faster(sometimes), then the state will pay some procent of the surgery. Of course the system is not perfect and there are some horror stories too and we have to fight with insurance companies occasionally, but mostly it works. From this standpoint, the American system seems to be just completely ridiculous.

 

[cerebus23]

Malpractice insurance costs an arm and a leg for doctors also. We are such a letigious society that any mistake even in case if minor ones can end up in court.

WHen medicare and medicade is involved the amount of paper work doctors have to do is staggering to get anything done approved or payed for. THey can spend more time filling out forms than actually seeing the patients. And lets not forget the massive amounts of fraud that go on year after year in those systems.

And then there are state run health programs, if you cannot afford major treatment the state will often cover lest part of the cost, but your limited in what medicines you can get and some super fancy procedures might not be covered.

We needed tort reform badly, we also need reforms in the work hours of medical people where some of them are on duty for 20 hours a day. You have anyone working longer than 10 12 hours mistakes happen nevermind mistakes where peoples lives are at stake.

Add to the fact that our congress did not even read the health care bill they signed into law nor was it allowed to be viewed by the public they rammed it through so fast,

We cannot afford this stuff period. We have massive debt, we have a dollar that is barely worth the paper it is printed on, we have medicare and social security going bankrupt to the tune of 4 trillion dollars to fix, we have many states in dire financial straights or totally bankrupt, and we are printing money at such a rate to cover our debts and spending inflation is inevitable, nevermind if we get hyperinflation.

We also have many in europe and middle east and asia that want to remove our dollar as the international currency, which they should. We drove our dollar into the ground with a ton of help from the "fed". We spent and spent like we could just make and print money until the end of time np.

Once we loose our international status then our government will not be able to print money to cover its spending, at which point we will not even be able to pay the interest in our national debt. Our federal government will collapse, and more importantly our entire economy and currency will be be destroyed.

So how do we pay for all this now and who pays for it in the future? We have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world, if not the highest. And we have open borders it not liek you can jack the tax rates up to 40 50 60% and not have corporations and people just leave the nation.

Add to the fact that you could tax everyone in the usa 100% and not pay off our spending and debt. Do we really need another trillion dollar health care bill now, you can argue that we need reform but there are many ways to reform things without taking them completely over, especially when our debt is so high and we are at "war".

England should be somewhat familiar with all this because you had international status and lost it. And i think the scale of our woes dwarfs what lost england its place at the head of the table.

 

[AkaDad]

Wow, didn't know the Escapist Community was a bunch of liberals.

In case anyone hasn't heard, America is trillions and trillions of dollars in debt. If you have a universal free health care, the government is forced to pay the cost. Since the government's only true form of gaining money is taxation, you are putting the burden on the American taxpayer to pay for everyone's health care. On top of that, this country has so many people (illegal immigrants, for example) that don't pay taxes. This means that people would be leeching the system while making everyone else pay for it.

Not only that, but you take away the competitiveness of the private sector, the place where America started becoming so great. Why shouldn't the veteran doctor of 30 dollars be allowed to charge more for his services? If you don't want to pay, then go talk to the straight from college doctor ready to make his mark on the world. In the private sector, you get that for which you pay! You take that competitiveness away, there is NO INCENTIVE to do better at your job (the exact reasons why public unions in this country are such a damn travesty).

Someone on The Escapist needed surgery. Yes, it sucks, it really does. But as a hard working American who is trying to save enough money for his first house to start a family, why should my paychecks be slashed so that every Tom, Dick, and Nancy can get whatever they need? Work hard, get ahead; that's hardly a terrible concept.

Did you know that in the 1950's the rich paid a 90% tax rate after 3 million and that we had better economic growth than we do today? The biggest reason for our debt is that the top 2 % of taxpayers have had their taxes cut so low that they're at one of lowest rates in modern history. Nobody is calling for middle class taxes to be raised, so you have nothing to fear.

If you, or someone in your family, has a medical problem and your insurance company decides to not pay out, than all your hard work was for nothing when you have to sell your house and go into bankruptcy. Wouldn't many more people be able to afford a house and raise a family if they didn't have to spend hundreds of dollars a month on health care insurance?

If the private sector didn't fail to provide a full employment economy and if it didn't fail to provide high enough wages so that people could afford private insurance, we wouldn't need the government involved.

 

[Vausch]

There are some politicians here in the US that believe nothing should be socialised if it can be privatised by using what is known as the "google test" where if something gets so many different links on google for the same service, it doesn't need to be socialised.

I like to apply this tactic to said politician's name. According to their hypothesis, we don't need them either.

 

[DarkRyter]

I'm pretty sure it's all Glenn Beck's fault.

Okay, I'm not sure at all.

 

[Ghengis John]

It is rather funny that all liberals think that any point of conservatism must have come from the brain washing company called "Fox." I care about the next person as much as everyone else, but I work hard to provide to myself. Are you too lazy to provide for yourself?

I never once mentioned fox, bush or Obama. I also shared with you the fact that the girl in question is educated and does have a job and still could not afford her surgery. Nor did I ever use the word conservatism. Calling this man a conservative and this man a liberal only tells us who we are and aren't supposed to listen to. As for yourself, and only needing yourself, "no man is an island." Circumstances occur in life that are beyond our control and the scope of one man to handle alone, at least unscathed. May you continue to be so blessed as to never find the truth in that aphorism, but I hope that reason and your purported empathy will lead you to wisdom, in lieu of unkind experience.